Well... it's Trump... again. #47, here we go.

[ZiprHead]

 

[Tigers!]

EVERY house democrat on the capital steps.
"Democrats united against 'unprecedented assault' "

Yes they all lined up for a group photo.
But what will they actually do?

 

[Swammerdami]

Paul Krugman has forgotten more economic science than all the Trumplickers ever knew added together. He explains why Trump's deficit is MUCH more malign than most deficits.

Throughout history there have only been 3 ways that governments have ultimately dealt with excessive debt and these are ALL civilization killers.

I wondered about this "Throughout history" claim. Throughout history is a long time. Why didn't RVonse present the detailed financial history during the Punic Wars, etc.?

To wit:

1) Inflation
2) Confiscate wealth
3) Renounce the debt

So let us only hope that the senate fails to pass Trump's beautiful bill before he not only ruins his own legacy but destroys civilization in the process.

"Ruins his own legacy"!! I suppose RVonse thought Trump was the greatest Prez ever -- everybody says so -- until the Democrats forced the Big Beautiful Bill down his throat!

Anyway, I didn't know FRED had datasets going back to 1700. Krugman shows such a graph in the column linked above, and I've reproduced it below. You can see UK public debt rising sharply to 62% of GDP by 1715, and hitting 194% in 1822 as they recovered from the Napoleonic Wars. It was as high as 186% in the aftermath of WW I and then, instead of recovering, reached 259% after WW II. Yes, that's Two Hundred Fifty-nine, with a T.

This debt wasn't renounced; wealth wasn't confiscated (Yes, I understand that RVonse probably considers ANY tax, no matter how tiny, as "confiscation") excepting for the Brexit own-goal. So was there inflation?

The price of gold in 1722 was £ 4.25 per troy ounce -- [historical note: This price was set by a bureaucrat named Sir Isaac Newton] -- and the price of gold in 1930 -- more than two centuries later -- was (drumroll please) £ 4.25. This despite huge economic growth. There's a technical name for this, but it isn't inflation. It's DE-flation.

So yes, RVonse, I think we DO need to see evidence for your "Throughout history there have only been 3 ways that governments have ultimately dealt with excessive debt and these are ALL civilization killers" claim.

 

[Elixir]

Republicans are using transparently dishonest accounting to hide just how much they’re adding to debt — hey, we aren’t really cutting taxes, just extending tax cuts that were scheduled to expire. And they’re also claiming that the OBBBA’s tax cuts (the ones that they say aren’t really happening) will generate a miraculous surge in economic growth. I’ve had my differences with the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, but it’s an honest, highly competent think tank, and its (appropriately) incredulous analysis of Trump officials’ economic projections is titled “CEA’s fantastical economic assumptions.”

Add in Trump’s bizarro claims about what his tariffs will achieve. Again, do we look like a serious country run by serious people?

That is why it angers me when some ostensibly reasonable poster decries Dem criticism of the Trump debacle bill, with assertions that it “increases funding for services”, which is only true under the most severe contortion of language - at which the Trump junta is expert.
So disappointing to hear see this anti democracy effort masquerading as a fiscally responsible approach, by someone who surely should, and probably does, know better.

 

[unapologetic]

Maybe we can give Alaska to Russia in exchange for stopping their invasion of Ukraine.

Tugh sell. They don't want Alaska. They sold it to US.

Yes they all lined up for a group photo.
But what will they actually do?

More than a photo. The total of House Dems, as a whole, publicly called out/shamed individual Repugs for betraying their constituents.
And what, pray tell, do you think they could do?
Boycott the vote? How many is needed for a quorum?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Maybe we can give Alaska to Russia in exchange for stopping their invasion of Ukraine.

Tugh sell. They don't want Alaska. They sold it to US.

I don’t think they knew how much oil was there when they sold it.

Look up “Seward’s Folly”.

 

[RVonse]

Paul Krugman has forgotten more economic science than all the Trumplickers ever knew added together. He explains why Trump's deficit is MUCH more malign than most deficits.

Throughout history there have only been 3 ways that governments have ultimately dealt with excessive debt and these are ALL civilization killers.

I wondered about this "Throughout history" claim. Throughout history is a long time. Why didn't RVonse present the detailed financial history during the Punic Wars, etc.?

To wit:

1) Inflation
2) Confiscate wealth
3) Renounce the debt

So let us only hope that the senate fails to pass Trump's beautiful bill before he not only ruins his own legacy but destroys civilization in the process.

"Ruins his own legacy"!! I suppose RVonse thought Trump was the greatest Prez ever -- everybody says so -- until the Democrats forced the Big Beautiful Bill down his throat!

Anyway, I didn't know FRED had datasets going back to 1700. Krugman shows such a graph in the column linked above, and I've reproduced it below. You can see UK public debt rising sharply to 62% of GDP by 1715, and hitting 194% in 1822 as they recovered from the Napoleonic Wars. It was as high as 186% in the aftermath of WW I and then, instead of recovering, reached 259% after WW II. Yes, that's Two Hundred Fifty-nine, with a T.

This debt wasn't renounced; wealth wasn't confiscated (Yes, I understand that RVonse probably considers ANY tax, no matter how tiny, as "confiscation") excepting for the Brexit own-goal. So was there inflation?

The price of gold in 1722 was £ 4.25 per troy ounce -- [historical note: This price was set by a bureaucrat named Sir Isaac Newton] -- and the price of gold in 1930 -- more than two centuries later -- was (drumroll please) £ 4.25. This despite huge economic growth. There's a technical name for this, but it isn't inflation. It's DE-flation.

So yes, RVonse, I think we DO need to see evidence for your "Throughout history there have only been 3 ways that governments have ultimately dealt with excessive debt and these are ALL civilization killers" claim.




View attachment 51265

But the UK was destroyed by debt. That is exactly the point. At one time the UK held the world's reserve currency with so many colonies the "sun never set" on the UK. That was before its huge debt burdens when the UK was a big deal in the world.

If the US would not have entered WW2 the UK would have likely been defeated by Germany. And even with US help, the UK could not pay back just what it owed the US from WW2 for over 50 years. At present, we should all be able to agree the UK is but a small shadow of its former self on the world stage. The UK did avoid Venezuelan style starvation and food riots typical of other declines but not much else.

Debt was a civilization killer for the UK, full stop.

 

[laughing dog]

Debt was a civilization killer for the UK, full stop.

Have you told the English,Welsh, Irish and Scots that their civilization was killed? Because they don’t know.

I thought two devastating world wars, the rise of nationalism, in the colonies, and US economic growth led to the fall in global prominence of a small country punching above its weight,

I do wonder sometimes if you and I live in alternative universes.

 

[RVonse]

Debt was a civilization killer for the UK, full stop.

Have you told the English,Welsh, Irish and Scots that their civilization was killed? Because they don’t know.

If they thought they were so well off, why did they pass Brexit then?

 

[unapologetic]

If they thought they were so well off, why did they pass Brexit then?

Because they thought they were better than the EU.

 

[TomC]

If they thought they were so well off, why did they pass Brexit then?

Because they thought they were better than the EU.

Also because they got sold a bunch of bullshit by "populist" politicians like Boris Johnson.
On another forum, there was a Brit who was all gung-ho for brexit. She went on and on about how EU was leaching off the Brits and how great things would be when working class Brits stopped subsidizing those lazy people on the continent and stopped letting foreigners take away the jobs. She cheered wildly when it passed.
Over the course of a few years she went from celebrating to complaining about how long it was taking and about how the EU refused to cooperate. Then a bunch of "it wasn't supposed to be like this!". Then she just stopped talking about it.

Kinda reminds me of the American idiots who got sold a bunch of bullshit by populist politicians like Trump.
Tom

 

[bilby]

But the UK was destroyed by debt. That is exactly the point. At one time the UK held the world's reserve currency with so many colonies the "sun never set" on the UK. That was before its huge debt burdens when the UK was a big deal in the world.

It was also AFTER 1822, when debt was 194% of GDP.

So either debt is not as important as you think, or it both built, and destroyed, the UK.

Only one of these possibilities is sane.

 

[bilby]

If the US would not have entered WW2 the UK would have likely been defeated by Germany.

This is simply false.

The UK had already passed the point where a German invasion and defeat of the home islands was a reasonable possibility, before either the US or the USSR entered the war against Germany.

The UK couldn't have defeated Germany, but nor could Germany have defeated the UK. Germany was defeated by the USSR; The Western Front was a sideshow in that defeat. The US beat Japan; They did not beat Germany.

 

[bilby]

Debt was a civilization killer for the UK, full stop.

Have you told the English,Welsh, Irish and Scots that their civilization was killed? Because they don’t know.

If they thought they were so well off, why did they pass Brexit then?

Because the Tory Party was trying to resolve an internal party conflict over policy, and it rained in London on the day of the referendum.

 

[laughing dog]

Debt was a civilization killer for the UK, full stop.

Have you told the English,Welsh, Irish and Scots that their civilization was killed? Because they don’t know.

If they thought they were so well off, why did they pass Brexit then?

How is that connected to their civilization being killed?

 

[Swammerdami]

So yes, RVonse, I think we DO need to see evidence for your "Throughout history there have only been 3 ways that governments have ultimately dealt with excessive debt and these are ALL civilization killers" claim.

But the UK was destroyed by debt. That is exactly the point. At one time the UK held the world's reserve currency with so many colonies the "sun never set" on the UK. That was before its huge debt burdens when the UK was a big deal in the world....
Debt was a civilization killer for the UK, full stop.

So you didn't even look at the graph! Am I wasting my time with you?

In 1990 the debt-to-GDP ratio, as shown on that graph, was less than 23%. Let me write that again:

In 1990 the debt-to-GDP ratio, as shown on that graph, was less than 23%.​

That's 23% down from the horrifying 259% in 1946. So much for your claim.

The UK, whatever its flaws, has not been "destroyed." The break-up of the great Britannic Empire had nothing to do with the "huge" debt -- (You really didn't even glance at the graph I posted for you, did you? :-( ). The loss of Empire was caused by granting independence to "possessions" like India, Singapore, Egypt, Malaysia, South Africa, etc. and (hijacking another thread) perhaps the Mandate for Palestine.

Try again, RVonse? But Three Strikes and You're Out.


Historical note: Before 1822 when UK reached the 194% level RVonse surely considers unsustainable, the Rothschild family laid very large bets that the Government of Kings Georges III and IV would indeed redeem their bonds for gold as scheduled. That's a major reason why that banking family became "the wealthiest family in the world."

 

[Swammerdami]

If the US would not have entered WW2 the UK would have likely been defeated by Germany.

This is simply false.

Nitpick: I'm NOT arguing with your essential point, but one British naval expert was on record as suggesting that naval reinforcements from the U.S. would be useful to prevent German domination of the Atlantic. Admittedly that expert had incentive to exaggerate the danger.

Secret and Personal for the President from Former Naval Person

...
Although the present government and I personally would never fail to send the fleet across the Atlantic if resistance was beaten down here, a point may be reached in the struggle where the present ministers no longer have control of affairs and when very easy terms could be obtained for the British islands by their becoming a vassal state of the Hitler empire. A pro-German government would certainly be called into being to make peace and might present to a shattered or a starving nation an almost irresistible case for entire submission to the Nazi will. The fate of the British fleet as I have already mentioned to you would be decisive on the future of the United States because if it were joined to the fleets of Japan , France, and Italy and the great resources of German industry, overwhelming sea power would be in Hitler's hands. He might, of course, use it with a merciful moderation. On the other hand he might not. This revolution in sea power might happen very quickly and certainly long before the United States would be able to prepare against it. If we go down you may have a United States of Europe under the Nazi command far more numerous, far stronger, far better armed than the new [world].

I know well, Mr. President, that your eye will already have searched these depths but I feel I have the right to place on record the vital manner in which American interests are at stake in our battle and that of France. I am sending you through Ambassador Kennedy a paper on destroyer strength prepared by the naval staff for your information. If we have to keep as we shall, the bulk of our destroyers on the east coast to guard against invasion, how shall we be able to cope with a German-Italian attack on the food and trade by which we live? The sender of the 35 destroyers as I have already described will bridge the gap until our new construction comes in at the end of the year. Here is a definite practical and possible decisive step which can be taken at once and I urge most earnestly that you will weigh my words.
...
We must ask therefore as a matter of life or death to be reinforced with these destroyers. We will carry out the struggle whatever the odds but it may well be beyond our resources unless we receive every reinforcement and particularly do we need this reinforcement on the sea.

Three months later the United States did transfer 50 aging destroyers to the United Kingdom as part of the Destroyers-for-Bases Agreement.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Me too. I suspect anyone on the rolls and has an email addressed registered got it too.

None here.

 

[unapologetic]

Me too. I suspect anyone on the rolls and has an email addressed registered got it too.

None here.

I suspect that those whose benefits did not get cut, got the email claming the Big Bonfire Bill helped them.
Those who's benefits DID get cut, got no notice.
It's a psychics trick.
Send out 10k emails with consecutive lottery numbers as Your prediction.
After the lottery, write one email to the winner claiming you predicted it. For a price you'll do it again.
In this version there are only two predictions: your benefits got cut or didn't. No need for the perdiction letters. The media did that.
Just claim victory to the lucky ones, and look like heroes.

 

[Elixir]

Just claim victory to the lucky ones

I got the advertisement /letter too.
What a POS, and what a POS this fat ugly presidunce is.
I sure hope he dies very soon (of natural causes of course) so that some vestige of American democracy might survive.