Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

Good ole Huckabee. The war is Hamas' fault. An argument like that sounds punitive, not defensive. This damage and suffering is Hamas' fault!

The Israeli response was supposed to be about the defense of Israel. Only supporters of Hamas would have had issue Israel's military responding after 10/7. Shore up lines, deal with inadequacies in security, cut off supply lines, critical tunnels, target caches. Also target those involved with the crimes committed on 10/7 and try to secure the hostages. Protect Israel... you know, better than Netanyahu did in being distracted from trying to take over Israel while Hamas was planning this whole thing out.

But 22 months later, the military actions are still taking place, and people are saying this is all Hamas' fault. There would be little question as far as to the blame in the initiation of the most recent conflict. What is in question is the indefinite status of military and later siege tactics against Gaza. Repeating 10/7 gets more hollow with time. Especially when the broad actions taken against Gaza is undoubtedly creating more risk for Israel than remediating risk. And that ignores the humanitarian cost to these actions, which has long since exceeded the toll taken on October 7th.

When the goal isn't possible via the means undertaken, and the means are destabilizing an area that will lead to more conflict against Israel, it isn't unreasonable to ask questions about what is the end game here, if the end game (Hamas destruction) isn't possible. The prolonged conflict benefits Netanyahu and the Iranian leadership. It doesn't benefit anyone else, certainly not the Gazans, but not the Israelis, and certainly not the unreleased hostages.

You sound like a tin foil loony

The goal is feasable and going just fine. The problem is that you have misunderstood Israels goals and what they have done. Israel is doing just fine.

Hamas created a deathtrap for IDF and managed to convince themselves that was a deterrent and that Israel would never dare retaliate. Israel just won't play their game. With a predictable outcome. Hamas miscalculated Isrsels resolve and the Palestinian civilians are paying the price. Their blood is still on Hamas hands

 

[Tigers!]

So the the accord between Egypt/Jordan and Israel was brought about by bombing the two... or through shrewd diplomacy?

There ware a few wars in there that Jordan/Egypt did not do too well in.

Yes... and still... an armistice that has held for longer than half of Israel's existence.

Which is good but an armstice is technically not peace. Long may it continue.

 

[Tigers!]

But Hamas has stated their intent to do it over and over until all the Jews are dead. I see no need to "believe" it was attempted genocide when they proclaim it.

Intent is not outcome. Without the means to even come close to the your alleged outcome, it is not an actual attempt.

There is a legal doctrine of attempted murder. You do not have to be successful i.e. kill the victiom, to be guilty. So yes it is considered an actual attempt. Intent is the key not the outcome. The outcome is obviously important but it is not the only factor.

 

[Derec]

Right, a small band of terrorists has the ability to commit genocide.

As promised, more details are forthcoming.

Hamas is hardly a "small band of terrorists". It is a large band of terrorists, with ~40k fighters in Gaza before the war. They are also allied with other terror groups such as Islamic Jihad and even the Marxist-Leninist PFLP. They are on the opposite end of the horseshoe with the latter, but they agree with the end-goal of destroying Israel. They are also vassals of the Tehran regime, which controls a country much bigger than Israel, and which funds and arms other terrorist groups like Hezbollah in Lebanon and Houthis in Yemen.
So, don't give me "small band of terrorists"!

Talking total bullshit must be in your DNA. The analogy to Pearl Harbor is stupid as shit.

It is not perfect. Both were unprovoked acts of aggression which started wars, however. But Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor at least was directed at a legitimate military target. The 10/7 attack on Israel was chiefly directed at civilians like those attending the music concert or just people chilling in their houses. So 10/7/2023 is even worse than 12/7/1941!

 

[laughing dog]

But Hamas has stated their intent to do it over and over until all the Jews are dead. I see no need to "believe" it was attempted genocide when they proclaim it.

Intent is not outcome. Without the means to even come close to the your alleged outcome, it is not an actual attempt.

There is a legal doctrine of attempted murder. You do not have to be successful i.e. kill the victiom, to be guilty. So yes it is considered an actual attempt. Intent is the key not the outcome. The outcome is obviously important but it is not the only factor.

Attempted murder requires the means for the attempt: the perpetrators of Oct. 7 did not have the means. Nor did the perpetrators make the effort to attempt genocide.

The attack was horrific enough that it does not require such inane embellishment as to call it attempted genocide.

 

[Derec]

Is an endgame close?​

Maybe. Certainly, Israel’s military advantages are increasingly formidable. Attrition has eroded Hamas’s capacity to fight. Israeli officials claim that the Islamist group has lost 18-20,000 fighters – more than half of its force at the start of the war – and 80 per cent of its heavier weapons such as rockets.

That is of course, great.

Such figures are impossible to verify, as Israel’s characterisation of a “Hamas operative” is very broad.

However, those figures are consistent with Hamas Health Ministry's own fatality numbers where military age males are heavily overrepresented among the fatalities.

Moreover, the fighters have been replaced because Hamas has managed to recruit thousands more. Israel estimates that the group now has 40,000 combatants, around the same number as at the war’s outset. But it remains diminished, as the new fighters are inferior in training and equipment.

They may be able to recruit, but can they also train? Besides, these are second stringers anyway, guys they did not recruit the first time around. So they have less potential even if they could be trained and equipped normally.
And when a bunch of them get killed or maimed, I guess Hamas will have to resort to recruiting young men even less fit for fighting.

Note that also a lot of commanders at various levels have been killed. You can't replace that with new recruits.
IDF, Shin Bet confirm killing of senior Hamas Nukhba commander

Israel has claimed. Yet they still make little progress towards the goal of eliminating Hamas.

The little progress is your interpretation. I think they have made solid progress in less than two years.

Airstrikes and evacuation orders are forcing Gaza’s 2.2 million residents into cramped patches of coastline, turning most of the strip into “no-go zones”.

Military operations are horrible for the affected civilian population. Video at 11. Blame Hamas et al for starting this war though.
This is also the reason why I think Egypt should have allowed children (<14, say) and a limited number of adult women caretakers to exit to a refugee camp in the Sinai. It would have kept the kids safe, and it would be easier to deal with a smaller number of remaining civilians.

Also note that the "cramped patches of coastline" were supposed to be safe areas, but Hamas keeps operating from them, making them decidedly less safe.

Palestinian casualties have soared, with over 1,600 killed, a third of them children, since hostilities resumed – a number equal to all the Israelis who have died in the war’s eighteen months.

Note that when they talk of "children", they mean everybody <18, not just actual children. For one, half the Gaza population is <18 (owing to the very high birth rates), and so one third of fatalities being <18 means they are significantly underrepresented.
Second, many of the 14-17 males are combatants. I think stats should therefore distinguish between actual children and teenagers. You cannot assume that the latter are automatically noncombatants.

The reported Palestinian death toll since the war began in October 2023 has now risen well past 50,000; the vast majority of the dead – even by Israel’s count – are civilians.

Define "vast majority" and [citation needed] that Israel's numbers confirm that. The UN link given here does not back up this claim.

Thousands more remain buried under rubble, and still more thousands have died from indirect causes, such as lack of medical treatment. Gaza’s humanitarian catastrophe is rapidly mounting, exacerbated by the total siege Israel has imposed on the strip since 1 March, blocking all aid trucks from entering for the first time since the war’s early days.

Yes, war is hell. Maybe Gazans will think twice before they start the next one.
Instead of rewarding Hamas with prematurely recognizing the "State of Palestine", or imply some sort of equivalence between hostages and terrorist prisoners in Israeli prisons, the western governments need to exert pressure on Hamas and their supporters in Tehran and Doha.
Hamas needs to release all hostages and lay down arms. Only then can there be peace. Not by giving Hamas any sort of victory, even a Pyrrhic one.

Israel claims it restarted the war to speed the release of the remaining hostages captured in October 2023. But it is negotiation rather than armed force that has won most hostages their freedom.

And some two thousands of Palestinian prisoners were released in that process too. For the remaining hostages, Hamas demands many more prisoners, including very dangerous terrorists like Abdullah Barghouti.
Hardened terrorists that Hamas demands in exchange of hostages

That was a big reason that the last ceasefire collapsed. And Israel should not be pressured by Macron, Starmer et al into giving in to these demands.

The number of Israeli captives has dropped from 251 at the war’s outset to just 59 at present (some 24 of them are believed to be alive; the rest are bodies held by Hamas). Hamas has released some 150 hostages by the terms of ceasefires negotiated in November 2023 and January 2025. Israeli military rescue attempts have freed just eight. Some 40 hostages have been killed while in captivity since the war began, some by Hamas, some by Israeli fire.

Note that the article does not mention how many prisoners Israel had to release to secure the freedom of these 150 hostages.
Who are the Palestinian prisoners released in exchange for Israeli hostages?

Nor do they mention that Hamas demands a steeper price for the remaining ones.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

‘A Game of Target Practice’: Doctors Back From Gaza Share Harrowing Stories of Israel’s Brutality in Exclusive Town Hall

In a shocking conversation, two British and American doctors share stories with Mehdi and subscribers about the violence they witnessed – and the heroism of Palestinians.

zeteo.com

Mehdi Hassan interviewing two western doctors that worked in Gaza.

Israel supporters aren't going to like what they have to say.

And what reason do we have to believe that this bears any connection to reality?

The doctors are just liars and anti-semites, right?

Do we have any proof they even exist?

Look at what happened with the Great Yuck. Look at all the scientists who published utterly flawed stuff in support of the let it burn approach. Why do you think there aren't people who will do the same thing in the other direction? Especially with the vast sums that various governments spend on disinformation these days.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And you continue to search under the streetlight.

A non-sequitur is only convincing if the goal is to appear stupid.

I have explained this previously. You recognize that there's not a lot we can do about Hamas so your answer to obtain "peace" is to shackle Israel. You (and many others on here) appear incapable of recognizing that the keys of peace are not under the Israeli streetlight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's been there from the very start.

Most of the time they have simply oppressed the non-Muslims, especially the Jews. Occasional pogroms have happened basically everywhere, though.

Just because the Nazis got in on the antisemitism game doesn't mean it's exclusive to them.

You appear to be implying that the Nazis got the idea to "kill all Jews" from Muslims. Are you? If so, that's a form of Holocaust denial. You are shifting the responsibility and the blame for the most horrific slaughter and crime against humanity from the white Christian Europeans who committed it to brown Muslim Arabs who never even attempted it.

Why does it have to be in either direction? Jews have been convenient bogeymen for a long time. Especially since the Christian proscription on "usury" meant that bankers were non-Christian, which generally meant Jewish.

It's not impossible for posters to back up their claims. People here do it all the time.

It's only impossible for you because your claims are bullshit and lies. You can't find facts that support them. And when pressed you claim there is supporting evidence but it's on sites no one else can read so you're doing us a favor by not posting the links.

You are making a claim that things were not as normal (periodic pogroms etc), yet you expect me to rebut it.

Obviously minor, but one I stumbled on recently:

صحيفة عمون : التاريخ يروي .. الأردنيون احبطوا محاولات الاستيطان اليهودي كافة

الاطماع اليهودية في الديار الاردنية ومقاومتها:<br><br>لنفهم الذي قام به كايد المفلح علينا ان نعود في التاريخ عشرات...

www.ammonnews.net

(In regard to Jewish purchase of some farmland)

In the summer of 1876, a meeting was held in the town of Sakab, known as “Sakab Night,” at the guesthouse of Sheikh Raja Mustafa Al-Ayasra to discuss the issue of Jewish land acquisitions in eastern Jordan. The meeting included sheikhs and notables from the Bani Hassan tribe and some northern Jordanian tribes, chaired by Sheikh Muflih Ubeidat, “Abu Kaid,” the sheikh of Kfar Som. The attendees decided to attack the two Jewish settlements with whatever weapons they had, and indeed, the fighters burned the settlements of Rahil and Khirbet Aybta, expelling the Jews from the area. They then proceeded to Salt and burned the third settlement, Kfar Yehuda.

That's a Jordanian paper, it presents no reason for the action other than that they were Jews. That's what you say wasn't happening.

 

[laughing dog]

And you continue to search under the streetlight.

A non-sequitur is only convincing if the goal is to appear stupid.

I have explained this previously. You recognize that there's not a lot we can do about Hamas so your answer to obtain "peace" is to shackle Israel. You (and many others on here) appear incapable of recognizing that the keys of peace are not under the Israeli streetlight.

Using a non-sequitur to explain a non- sequitur is a novel but unconvincing methodology.

You used your “streetlight” meme to respond to post 10,015. That post had nothing whatsoever about obtaining peace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Was 10/7 "justice"? I know it was attempted genocide.

Not even close.

Hamas says it was attempted genocide. Why do you not believe them about that?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Jews for justice. Jews against genocide.

Was 10/7 "justice"?

No.

I know it was attempted genocide.

You may believe it was attempted genocide, but you cannot know that to be true because it obviously wasn’t. The scope and scale of that viscous attack on civilians was too small to be genocide.

Hamas' stated intent was to do it over and over until all the Jews are dead. That is genocidal intent even if it wasn't big enough by itself.

 

[laughing dog]

Jews for justice. Jews against genocide.

Was 10/7 "justice"?

No.

I know it was attempted genocide.

You may believe it was attempted genocide, but you cannot know that to be true because it obviously wasn’t. The scope and scale of that viscous attack on civilians was too small to be genocide.

Hamas' stated intent was to do it over and over until all the Jews are dead. That is genocidal intent even if it wasn't big enough by itself.

Provide a link that Hamas’s intent is to do over and over until all the Jews are dead.

But I think you are stretching a point until it is unrecognizable. Using your logic, even the shooting at one Jew by Hamas is an attempted genocide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I would really like to see the evidence. DrZoidberg and you are basically saying that Hamas, with scant resources to manufacture explosives and almost no ability to import anything except by carrying in through tunnels the IDF has been actively trying to destroy, was able to assemble over 50,000 booby traps that were then placed in housing units in Rafah. If true, then Israel has no real hope of winning a war against them and their Super McGuyver skills.

Do you genuinely believe that, or are you shoveling fresh bullshit to make it easier for you to shift the goalposts?

Hamas has thrown tens of thousands of rockets at Israel. The rockets carry more explosive that is needed for a booby trap. Thus you are saying that Hamas can't do what we have already seen them do.

And note that there's no force. Lots of claims of civilians being asked to demonstrate something isn't booby trapped, zero claims of civilians being blown up by said booby traps. It's booby trapped, the civilian refuses to show it's not, IDF assumes trapped. Nobody gets hurt.

Forcing civilians to participate in military operations being conducted by their declared enemies is a war crime.

And if the IDF was assuming something was trapped, you can't use the IDF actions as evidence it was trapped.

You just undermined DrZoidberg's claim and demonstrated the utter ridiculousness of your defense of it.

You still haven't addressed the comparison to the bomb squad asking you to open your bag to show it doesn't contain a bomb. That's not making you blow yourself up.

 

[ZiprHead]

Yes, war is hell. Maybe Gazans will think twice before they start the next one.

In the words of Ronald Reagan, "There you go again." Equating all Gazans with Hamas.

 

[pood]

Is an endgame close?​

Maybe. Certainly, Israel’s military advantages are increasingly formidable. Attrition has eroded Hamas’s capacity to fight. Israeli officials claim that the Islamist group has lost 18-20,000 fighters – more than half of its force at the start of the war – and 80 per cent of its heavier weapons such as rockets.

That is of course, great.

Such figures are impossible to verify, as Israel’s characterisation of a “Hamas operative” is very broad.

However, those figures are consistent with Hamas Health Ministry's own fatality numbers where military age males are heavily overrepresented among the fatalities.

Moreover, the fighters have been replaced because Hamas has managed to recruit thousands more. Israel estimates that the group now has 40,000 combatants, around the same number as at the war’s outset. But it remains diminished, as the new fighters are inferior in training and equipment.

They may be able to recruit, but can they also train? Besides, these are second stringers anyway, guys they did not recruit the first time around. So they have less potential even if they could be trained and equipped normally.
And when a bunch of them get killed or maimed, I guess Hamas will have to resort to recruiting young men even less fit for fighting.

Note that also a lot of commanders at various levels have been killed. You can't replace that with new recruits.
IDF, Shin Bet confirm killing of senior Hamas Nukhba commander

Israel has claimed. Yet they still make little progress towards the goal of eliminating Hamas.

The little progress is your interpretation. I think they have made solid progress in less than two years.

Airstrikes and evacuation orders are forcing Gaza’s 2.2 million residents into cramped patches of coastline, turning most of the strip into “no-go zones”.

Military operations are horrible for the affected civilian population. Video at 11. Blame Hamas et al for starting this war though.
This is also the reason why I think Egypt should have allowed children (<14, say) and a limited number of adult women caretakers to exit to a refugee camp in the Sinai. It would have kept the kids safe, and it would be easier to deal with a smaller number of remaining civilians.

Also note that the "cramped patches of coastline" were supposed to be safe areas, but Hamas keeps operating from them, making them decidedly less safe.

Palestinian casualties have soared, with over 1,600 killed, a third of them children, since hostilities resumed – a number equal to all the Israelis who have died in the war’s eighteen months.

Note that when they talk of "children", they mean everybody <18, not just actual children. For one, half the Gaza population is <18 (owing to the very high birth rates), and so one third of fatalities being <18 means they are significantly underrepresented.
Second, many of the 14-17 males are combatants. I think stats should therefore distinguish between actual children and teenagers. You cannot assume that the latter are automatically noncombatants.

The reported Palestinian death toll since the war began in October 2023 has now risen well past 50,000; the vast majority of the dead – even by Israel’s count – are civilians.

Define "vast majority" and [citation needed] that Israel's numbers confirm that. The UN link given here does not back up this claim.

Thousands more remain buried under rubble, and still more thousands have died from indirect causes, such as lack of medical treatment. Gaza’s humanitarian catastrophe is rapidly mounting, exacerbated by the total siege Israel has imposed on the strip since 1 March, blocking all aid trucks from entering for the first time since the war’s early days.

Yes, war is hell. Maybe Gazans will think twice before they start the next one.

Gazans did not start the war. But you know that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've emphasized the question in bold to manage the "vagueness" of my explicit question.

But wait... TomC didn't say that... at least not yet. So, the question is, to TomC what level of Israeli retaliation would supercede the moral authority created by Hamas' massacre on October 7?

The problem here is that you think there should be an exchange rate in the first place.

Answer the damn question and stop poorly reading between lines.

At what point is Israel's reaction in Gaza too much? If they nuked Gaza, would that be too much? What if they carpet bombed Gaza? What is the limit?

No of course there is no specific math, but the problem I have is that using 10/7 as a justification any action, sounds very familiar to what the US and W Admin did in 2003.

And you still don't get it that it's not relevant.

The math that is relevant is dead terrorists in comparison to dead civilians.

But so long as Hamas chooses to fight Israel is free to continue killing them.

 

[ZiprHead]

The reported Palestinian death toll since the war began in October 2023 has now risen well past 50,000; the vast majority of the dead – even by Israel’s count – are civilians.

Define "vast majority" and [citation needed] that Israel's numbers confirm that. The UN link given here does not back up this claim.

The entire article is about civilian victims.

But lets do the math. Israel claims 18 to 20 thousand Hamas have been killed. Israel also accepts that there have been fifty thousand total casualties (I believe there are many more buried in the rubble of completely destroyed cities.). That means thirty thousand dead civilians.

You may now quibble about the word "vast".

 

[laughing dog]

I've emphasized the question in bold to manage the "vagueness" of my explicit question.

But wait... TomC didn't say that... at least not yet. So, the question is, to TomC what level of Israeli retaliation would supercede the moral authority created by Hamas' massacre on October 7?

The problem here is that you think there should be an exchange rate in the first place.

Answer the damn question and stop poorly reading between lines.

At what point is Israel's reaction in Gaza too much? If they nuked Gaza, would that be too much? What if they carpet bombed Gaza? What is the limit?

No of course there is no specific math, but the problem I have is that using 10/7 as a justification any action, sounds very familiar to what the US and W Admin did in 2003.

And you still don't get it that it's not relevant.

The math that is relevant is dead terrorists in comparison to dead civilians.

But so long as Hamas chooses to fight Israel is free to continue killing them.

“Them” as in Hamas or as in civilians? If the former, yes, if the latter, then no because no gov’t is “free” to kill civilians without cause or restraint.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So we give up? Is that your solution? We give into violent bullys? Is that really a world you want to live in?

If the free world gives up on its ideals, democracy and civic rights will be gone. Don’t you think its worth fighting for?

So many people will grasp at straws rather than face unpleasant reality.

Simple choice: accept the horrors of the status quo or listen to the siren song of blaming Israel and seeking peace through the only thing they think they can change. Standard manipulation techniques.

A memory from long ago, my father discussing what hypnosis can and can't do. Could you manipulate someone into committing murder? No way. But could you manipulate someone into killing somebody while believing they were acting in self defense? Yes, given sufficient time. (And, yes, he was qualified to speak on such matters.)

My post made it explicit what I was asking and why. But for some reason, you just need to turn me into another Hamas sympathizer so you don't need to stop and actually think... and support your position rationally.

You do come across as a Hamas sympathizer. Can't you see how that is what it looks like?

I don't believe any of them are actually sympathizers or antisemites. They've just been manipulated into waddling and quacking.

Well, that's delusional. Saying stuff like that ia make makes you come across like a stooge for Iran. There's no deal in the world that will make Iran let go of its stranglehold of the Gazan people.

If you haven’t noticed, Iran would rather let all Palestinians die rather than relinquish control.

Who are you hoping to negotiate with?

There's always an answer if you look hard enough. And the answer lies with the side with the power. Thus it is the fault of the side with the power for failing to find the answer. And the Everglades are full of prime farmland.

Stopping Hamas involves diplomacy with Iran not bombs. Israel has already flattened Gaza. We still have Hamas. Most of the leadership isn't even near Gaza.

Because Israel is moving slowly and cautiously, because Hamas has forced them to do that. Because they’re trying to kill as few Palestinians as possible

Going slow doesn't address the fact the leadership isn't there. There's no way to do more than knock them back because the leadership and base of support are outside. But they can be knocked back and the hostages can be recovered.

But that does not make diplomacy a viable option. Iran has no interest in peace.