Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

My post made it explicit what I was asking and why. But for some reason, you just need to turn me into another Hamas sympathizer so you don't need to stop and actually think... and support your position rationally.

You do come across as a Hamas sympathizer. Can't you see how that is what it looks like?

Not really, I see how twisted your ideology needs to be in order to come to that conclusion. You still have this absurd idea that military response ends Hamas. It hasn't in decades. I've been saying for a while, the solution is political (I said so in the last post), not military.

I don't think its absurd.

The idea that this can be solved politically is so laughably dumb. But you seem to live in an ideological little media bubble where all your crazy notions get validated, so it might make sense in your head... somehow

Because they have faith that there must be an answer other than violence.

People will jump through an awful lot of hoops to rationalize their faith.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You do come across as a Hamas sympathizer. Can't you see how that is what it looks like?

You do come across as someone who loves to see Gazan babies starve to death. Can’t you see how that is what it looks like?

Only in your case, it is actually true.

And how many Gazan babies have starved to death due to Israel? Hamas hasn't been able to find any and I would be very surprised if it could happen without their knowledge. And if they knew there's no way we wouldn't have pictures.

What we have is three facing starvation due to medical issues. But we only have abstract blame of Israel, where's the details? What exactly do they need? Is there even anything that would work? Of course the details are left out because that would permit verification.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But 22 months later, the military actions are still taking place, and people are saying this is all Hamas' fault. There would be little question as far as to the blame in the initiation of the most recent conflict. What is in question is the indefinite status of military and later siege tactics against Gaza. Repeating 10/7 gets more hollow with time. Especially when the broad actions taken against Gaza is undoubtedly creating more risk for Israel than remediating risk. And that ignores the humanitarian cost to these actions, which has long since exceeded the toll taken on October 7th.

They've gotten a majority of them out. And they've set Hamas back years.

And the humanitarian "cost" is Hamas' main weapon. When you object to the dead civilians you encourage Hamas to arrange the death of more. You think you are doing good in trying to defend the civilians, but you are actually enabling the problem. The more you care about dead civilians the more dead civilians there will be.

When the goal isn't possible via the means undertaken, and the means are destabilizing an area that will lead to more conflict against Israel, it isn't unreasonable to ask questions about what is the end game here, if the end game (Hamas destruction) isn't possible. The prolonged conflict benefits Netanyahu and the Iranian leadership. It doesn't benefit anyone else, certainly not the Gazans, but not the Israelis, and certainly not the unreleased hostages.

You are asking for more atrocities here. Let Hamas keep the hostages, they'll take more.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When aid isn't:

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/12/middleeast/israel-strike-armed-group-posing-aid-workers-latam-intl

Really now, this happens openly and the people on the ground don't know it?! This time nobody's going to pretend Israel struck a wrong target because they have the damning footage.

And people on here are so willing to believe supposed Israeli whistleblowers, how about one on the other side?

Exclusive: Whistleblower alleges misconduct by United Nations in Gaza

A whistleblower claims World Food Programme and U.N. agencies rejected Israeli security assistance, blocking aid distribution to Gaza despite available supplies as U.N. dismisses accusations.

www.foxnews.com

Yeah, it's Faux--but nobody but Israeli and reich wing sources are going to say something that would imperil their ability to report from Gaza.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

(Not safe for humanity)

Mass rape, forced pregnancy and sexual torture in Tigray amount to crimes against humanity – report

Research documents ‘horrific and extreme’ attacks by Ethiopian and Eritrean forces and warns that impunity has meant such atrocities are expanding to new regions

www.theguardian.com

The URL sums it up quite well.

This is just one of the areas of ethnic cleansing in Africa. Nobody's even alleged such horrors by the IDF. (But we do have multiple reports of sexual exploitation by aid workers in Gaza.)

 

[laughing dog]

People will jump through an awful lot of hoops to rationalize their faith.

Yes they will. I’m sure the irony is lost on you.

 

[Arctish]

It's been there from the very start.

Most of the time they have simply oppressed the non-Muslims, especially the Jews. Occasional pogroms have happened basically everywhere, though.

Just because the Nazis got in on the antisemitism game doesn't mean it's exclusive to them.

You appear to be implying that the Nazis got the idea to "kill all Jews" from Muslims. Are you? If so, that's a form of Holocaust denial. You are shifting the responsibility and the blame for the most horrific slaughter and crime against humanity from the white Christian Europeans who committed it to brown Muslim Arabs who never even attempted it.

Why does it have to be in either direction?

It doesn't "have to be" in either direction.

But lying about who got the idea to "kill all Jews" is lying, no matter which direction you are claiming it went.
Nazis got the idea to "kill all Jews". They pursued that course of action and succeeded in killing over 6 million Jews in less than a decade.

If you want to make the claim that a Muslim State got the same idea and pursued it, post the evidence that supports your position. Don't just say it happened, show that it happened.

And while you're at it, show us the evidence Palestinian Jews were enslaved by their Christian and Muslim Palestinian neighbors. if you actually found some. But if all you have is bullshit and blather, don't bother posting it. All that does is clutter up the thread with nonsense.

Jews have been convenient bogeymen for a long time. Especially since the Christian proscription on "usury" meant that bankers were non-Christian, which generally meant Jewish.

Which is why Europe became the hotbed for virulent anti-Semitism, not Palestine.

Learn some history, Loren. Europe was where Jews were locked up at night. Europe is where they were targeted for abuse, torture, expulsion, and murder. Europe is where a State got the idea to "kill all Jews" and made one hell of an effort to do it.

I know you dislike criticizing white folks, but the white Christian Europeans are the ones who tried to "kill all Jews". Lying about that does a disservice to everyone.

It's not impossible for posters to back up their claims. People here do it all the time.

It's only impossible for you because your claims are bullshit and lies. You can't find facts that support them. And when pressed you claim there is supporting evidence but it's on sites no one else can read so you're doing us a favor by not posting the links.

You are making a claim that things were not as normal (periodic pogroms etc), yet you expect me to rebut it.

I expect you to post the evidence that supports your claims like everyone else does.

If you claim periodic pogroms happened, then link to the books and articles written by historians and eyewitnesses, the documents issued by governments or organizations like the UN that reference them, and other evidence you have found.

For example, I claim that Nazi Germany got the idea to "kill all Jews". As evidence in support of my claim I am providing a link to the webpage of the Illinois Holocaust Museum and Education Center. If you need more supporting evidence, I can provide plenty of it.

Now it's your turn.

Post your evidence that supports your claims.

Obviously minor, but one I stumbled on recently:

صحيفة عمون : التاريخ يروي .. الأردنيون احبطوا محاولات الاستيطان اليهودي كافة

الاطماع اليهودية في الديار الاردنية ومقاومتها:<br><br>لنفهم الذي قام به كايد المفلح علينا ان نعود في التاريخ عشرات...

www.ammonnews.net

(In regard to Jewish purchase of some farmland)

In the summer of 1876, a meeting was held in the town of Sakab, known as “Sakab Night,” at the guesthouse of Sheikh Raja Mustafa Al-Ayasra to discuss the issue of Jewish land acquisitions in eastern Jordan. The meeting included sheikhs and notables from the Bani Hassan tribe and some northern Jordanian tribes, chaired by Sheikh Muflih Ubeidat, “Abu Kaid,” the sheikh of Kfar Som. The attendees decided to attack the two Jewish settlements with whatever weapons they had, and indeed, the fighters burned the settlements of Rahil and Khirbet Aybta, expelling the Jews from the area. They then proceeded to Salt and burned the third settlement, Kfar Yehuda.

That's a Jordanian paper, it presents no reason for the action other than that they were Jews. That's what you say wasn't happening.

Ffs, Loren, did you not read your own article?

The very first paragraph says

In order to understand what Kayed al-Mufleh did, we have to go back in history for decades, as the movement of Sheikh Kayed al-Mufleh al-Obaidat came in defense of Palestine and Jordan against the ambitions of the Jews and Zionists in the Jordanian lands.

"[A]gainst the ambitions of Jews and Zionists in the Jordanian lands", not to "kill all Jews"

And the second paragraph talks about the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, the secret treaty between France and the United Kingdom with the backing of other European powers on the division of the region between France and Britain, the Balfour Declaration of 1917 that proposed dividing the region between European Zionist immigrants and the Palestinian population, and the call for the annexation of Transjordan to a proposed Jewish State. So, yeah, there was plenty of reason for the locals to work against the ambitions of Jews and Zionists on Jordanian lands.

And the third paragraph has this:

Tens of thousands of copies of Jabotinsky's poem were distributed, in which it is stated: "The Jordan River has two banks, one for us and the other for us; the religious feeling of the Jews was united, and the Zionists forgot their differences. This is what made Mufleh Al-Obeidat and his son Kayed Al-Mufleh Al-Obeidat and the patriots with him to confront these historical ambitions

No where in any of that is a call to "kill all Jews".

And nothing in that article is anything close to the bigotry, hate, and planning of mass murder the Nazis engaged in.

 

[bilby]

Why does actual ethnic cleansing barely get mentioned?​

​

Well, probably because monomaniac enthusiasts won't leave any column inches or broadcast minutes un-filled by a torrent of unceasing mentions of their favourite countries and conflicts.

Even if it did get mentioned, it would probably only be as a trojan horse for a claim that their favourite subject was always treated terribly unfairly, by people who mention the crimes committed by your team, without mentioning other irrelevant crimes elsewhere.

It's almost as though two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Swammerdami]

Until these most blatant recent atrocities, I have sided with Israel against Muslim terrorists my whole life -- yes, that claim is just "my word against yours" -- but I can see shades of gray in between black and white.

The hatred so many Americans have for Palestinians is just disgusting. Natanyahu's latest war has killed at least 100,000 Palestinians -- likely much more when indirect deaths are included -- yet apologists for the war criminals complain that Israeli captives are being fed the same starvation diets as their captors.

Scholars have estimated 80% of Palestinians killed are civilians. A study by OHCHR, which verified fatalities from three independent sources, found that 70% of the Palestinians killed in residential buildings or similar housing were women and children.
...
The number of injured is greater than 100,000; Gaza has the most amputated children per capita in the world.
...
On 16 October 2023, UNRWA stated there were so many deaths in Gaza that there were no longer enough body bags. Because the morgues were so overcrowded, bodies were kept in ice cream trucks. On 11 November 2023, Monir al-Bashr, the director of the Health Ministry of Gaza, stated graves were being dug by hand. On 12 November 2023, Mai al-Kaila noted staff at Al-Shifa were unable to bury 100 decomposing bodies. On 14 November 2023, the Palestinian Red Crescent noted it was unable to rescue the wounded and injured beneath the rubble, noting, "Those injured are left there in agony to suffer and die with no response to their calls of help." By August 2024, the dead were being buried in the streets and house yards, as well as in mass graves.

And then we listen to really weird crap, like a bizarre claim that only events in 1948 matter. Genocide is somehow justified by events before most of us were born.

If we want to wallow in ancient history, why not study the behavior of Netanyahu's predecessor some 30 centuries ago?

When the Children of Israel commit ethnic cleansing they are obeying the Voice of Their Special Omnigod. It was not good enough that Saul killed the Amalekites' women and sucklings, as Netanyahu does; Saul neglected to also kill "the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs" and for this neglect was rejected from being King over Isael.

The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
...
And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments.

And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night. And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. And Samuel came to Saul: and

Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.

What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?

They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.

Stay, and I will tell thee what the Lord hath said to me this night.

Say on.

When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the Lord anointed thee king over Israel? And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?

Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.

Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord.

I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

 

[Politesse]

(Not safe for humanity)

Mass rape, forced pregnancy and sexual torture in Tigray amount to crimes against humanity – report

Research documents ‘horrific and extreme’ attacks by Ethiopian and Eritrean forces and warns that impunity has meant such atrocities are expanding to new regions

www.theguardian.com

The URL sums it up quite well.

This is just one of the areas of ethnic cleansing in Africa. Nobody's even alleged such horrors by the IDF. (But we do have multiple reports of sexual exploitation by aid workers in Gaza.)

Because very few people are interested in genocide as a subject unless it is happening to them personally.

 

[Patooka]

How does ethnic cleansing not get mentioned?

Probably by whataboutism. Good job, Loren..

 

[Tigers!]

I am glad that someone else apart from me thinks that events in the Horn of Africa and below Egypt might be worth considering.

The RSF have recently declared independence in the province of Darfur. The central government of Sudan, such as it is, is not impressed as is now claiming to right tominvade Darfur. The link Loren provided for Tigray can be magnified in Sudan.

Pity the west does not bother too much about violence between non-whites.

 

[Politesse]

Pity the west does not bother too much about violence between non-whites.

What sort of intervention do you propose?

 

[Harry Bosch]

I am glad that someone else apart from me thinks that events in the Horn of Africa and below Egypt might be worth considering.

The RSF have recently declared independence in the province of Darfur. The central government of Sudan, such as it is, is not impressed as is now claiming to right tominvade Darfur. The link Loren provided for Tigray can be magnified in Sudan.

Pity the west does not bother too much about violence between non-whites.

I think that it's more about location. The US and Europe have always been very focused on the Middle East. I think that it's mostly due to oil, religion, and of course Israel. To be fair, most of the world sadly ignores Africa IMO.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

(Not safe for humanity)

Mass rape, forced pregnancy and sexual torture in Tigray amount to crimes against humanity – report

Research documents ‘horrific and extreme’ attacks by Ethiopian and Eritrean forces and warns that impunity has meant such atrocities are expanding to new regions

www.theguardian.com

The URL sums it up quite well.

This is just one of the areas of ethnic cleansing in Africa. Nobody's even alleged such horrors by the IDF. (But we do have multiple reports of sexual exploitation by aid workers in Gaza.)

Speaks more to the indifference of the world to Africa.

Also, are you seriously trying to justify potentially illegal actions by referring to even worse actions by others? Or are you saying the whole world (or more importantly, anyone that disagrees with you) is anti-Semitic.

It has been 22 months since the massacre. The world turned their heads and gave Israel a blank check while looking the other way. Israel exhausted its 'do whatever you want' period of time. They are supposed to be coloring inside the lines now.

 

[Toni]

Until these most blatant recent atrocities, I have sided with Israel against Muslim terrorists my whole life -- yes, that claim is just "my word against yours" -- but I can see shades of gray in between black and white.

The hatred so many Americans have for Palestinians is just disgusting. Natanyahu's latest war has killed at least 100,000 Palestinians -- likely much more when indirect deaths are included -- yet apologists for the war criminals complain that Israeli captives are being fed the same starvation diets as their captors.

Scholars have estimated 80% of Palestinians killed are civilians. A study by OHCHR, which verified fatalities from three independent sources, found that 70% of the Palestinians killed in residential buildings or similar housing were women and children.
...
The number of injured is greater than 100,000; Gaza has the most amputated children per capita in the world.
...
On 16 October 2023, UNRWA stated there were so many deaths in Gaza that there were no longer enough body bags. Because the morgues were so overcrowded, bodies were kept in ice cream trucks. On 11 November 2023, Monir al-Bashr, the director of the Health Ministry of Gaza, stated graves were being dug by hand. On 12 November 2023, Mai al-Kaila noted staff at Al-Shifa were unable to bury 100 decomposing bodies. On 14 November 2023, the Palestinian Red Crescent noted it was unable to rescue the wounded and injured beneath the rubble, noting, "Those injured are left there in agony to suffer and die with no response to their calls of help." By August 2024, the dead were being buried in the streets and house yards, as well as in mass graves.

And then we listen to really weird crap, like a bizarre claim that only events in 1948 matter. Genocide is somehow justified by events before most of us were born.

If we want to wallow in ancient history, why not study the behavior of Netanyahu's predecessor some 30 centuries ago?

When the Children of Israel commit ethnic cleansing they are obeying the Voice of Their Special Omnigod. It was not good enough that Saul killed the Amalekites' women and sucklings, as Netanyahu does; Saul neglected to also kill "the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs" and for this neglect was rejected from being King over Isael.

The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
...
And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments.

And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night. And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. And Samuel came to Saul: and

Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.

What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?

They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.

Stay, and I will tell thee what the Lord hath said to me this night.

Say on.

When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the Lord anointed thee king over Israel? And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?

Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.

Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord.

I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

I largely agree with you ( minus seeing a lot of Americans hating Palestinians— not sure I agree) but I take issue with you calling this Netanyahu’s war: Hamas started this and could have ended it by releasing the hostages. So it is imo, wrong to blame all of this on Netanyahu. He’s despicable, yes. But Hamas does not have even a millimeter of high ground here. Both sides are despicable. Both sides are responsible for thousands of deaths and the starvation of hundreds of thousands. Both Netanyahu and Hamas need to go.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Until these most blatant recent atrocities, I have sided with Israel against Muslim terrorists my whole life -- yes, that claim is just "my word against yours" -- but I can see shades of gray in between black and white.

The hatred so many Americans have for Palestinians is just disgusting. Natanyahu's latest war has killed at least 100,000 Palestinians -- likely much more when indirect deaths are included -- yet apologists for the war criminals complain that Israeli captives are being fed the same starvation diets as their captors.

Scholars have estimated 80% of Palestinians killed are civilians. A study by OHCHR, which verified fatalities from three independent sources, found that 70% of the Palestinians killed in residential buildings or similar housing were women and children.
...
The number of injured is greater than 100,000; Gaza has the most amputated children per capita in the world.
...
On 16 October 2023, UNRWA stated there were so many deaths in Gaza that there were no longer enough body bags. Because the morgues were so overcrowded, bodies were kept in ice cream trucks. On 11 November 2023, Monir al-Bashr, the director of the Health Ministry of Gaza, stated graves were being dug by hand. On 12 November 2023, Mai al-Kaila noted staff at Al-Shifa were unable to bury 100 decomposing bodies. On 14 November 2023, the Palestinian Red Crescent noted it was unable to rescue the wounded and injured beneath the rubble, noting, "Those injured are left there in agony to suffer and die with no response to their calls of help." By August 2024, the dead were being buried in the streets and house yards, as well as in mass graves.

And then we listen to really weird crap, like a bizarre claim that only events in 1948 matter. Genocide is somehow justified by events before most of us were born.

If we want to wallow in ancient history, why not study the behavior of Netanyahu's predecessor some 30 centuries ago?

When the Children of Israel commit ethnic cleansing they are obeying the Voice of Their Special Omnigod. It was not good enough that Saul killed the Amalekites' women and sucklings, as Netanyahu does; Saul neglected to also kill "the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs" and for this neglect was rejected from being King over Isael.

The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
...
And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments.

And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night. And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. And Samuel came to Saul: and

Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.

What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?

They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.

Stay, and I will tell thee what the Lord hath said to me this night.

Say on.

When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the Lord anointed thee king over Israel? And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord?

Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal.

Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord.

I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.

I largely agree with you ( minus seeing a lot of Americans hating Palestinians— not sure I agree) but I take issue with you calling this Netanyahu’s war: Hamas started this and could have ended it by releasing the hostages. So it is imo, wrong to blame all of this on Netanyahu. He’s despicable, yes. But Hamas dies not have even a millimeter of high ground here. Both sides are despicable. Both sides are responsible for thousands of deaths and the starvation of hundreds of thousands. Both Netanyahu and Hamas need to go.

100% agree with your post. The sad thing is that before Oct 7, Netanyahu was not popular. And he was very fairly blamed for the invasion for incompetence. But as the war drags on, he has become more popular. The only possible long term viable solution is a two-state solution. The Israeli far right and Hamas have been aligned in ensuring that this will probably never happen. And the war will continue....

 

[Elixir]

I never heard of “radical Islamic terrorists” or. “the Muslim threat” as a child.
But by the mid 1960s I was convinced that Israel would start the next world war, just from what I knew from reports and my father’s Jewish heritage.
Not much has changed other than terrorist designations and war crimes accusations. They’re (BOTH sides) still going at it, trying to rally everyone else into complicity in genocide.

 

[Elixir]

The main difference between Israel and Islam is that Islamists’ leaders are right up front about wanting to wipe out Israel and Israeli Jews, whereas Israel’s leadership wants to wipe out Gazan and West Bank Muslims without ever having to admit that was their goal.

 

[ZiprHead]

I largely agree with you ( minus seeing a lot of Americans hating Palestinians— not sure I agree) but I take issue with you calling this Netanyahu’s war: Hamas started this and could have ended it by releasing the hostages. So it is imo, wrong to blame all of this on Netanyahu. He’s despicable, yes. But Hamas does not have even a millimeter of high ground here. Both sides are despicable. Both sides are responsible for thousands of deaths and the starvation of hundreds of thousands. Both Netanyahu and Hamas need to go.

I agree with most of that, except the highlighted.