Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[ZiprHead]

I have long said about aid being used for control. Somebody got around to actually studying it--even worse than I was aware of.

Aiding Who? Humanitarian Aid and the Continuation of War by Other Means

<p><strong>What must be done to aid civilians without simultaneously bankrolling those who harm them?</strong><br> We tackle this question through a comparati

papers.ssrn.com

The aid organizations know it's being diverted, they consider it normal. The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.

Was there a reason this was the start of a new thread?

 

[Arctish]

We like to hold up the Nazis and imperial Japanese as examples of terrible warring nations. As if they're the worst and most devoid of morals.

But the fact is that Hamas is way worse than the Nazis ever were.

They've set a new standard of how godawful an army can be

And ^there^ it is folks.

The redemption of the Nazis, made possible by the need to exaggerate the threat of a Palestinian terrorist organization.

The Nazis persecuted and enslaved Jews, confined them in concentration camps, built death camps so they could slaughter Jews by the millions, conducted horrific experiments on them, castrated and sterilized them without anesthesia, suffocated them in the backs of specially built trucks or simply shot or drowned them, built "showers" so they could herd Jews into gas chambers and then move the bodies to incinerators like a factory moves widgets, and so much more, but at least they weren't as bad as Hamas.

Redemption? Saying they aren't the greatest evil isn't redemption.

It is when Nazis move from absolute worst to not-as-bad so Hamas can be made to sound like they're the ones who used the skin of murdered Jews to make lampshades.

Do you agree with DrZoidberg? Do you believe that Hamas is way worse than the Nazis ever were?

If you don't, if you think the Nazis are still the worst and most devoid of morals then you should say so, because right now it looks like you're preparing to spout bullshit so you can claim a terrorist attack on a music festival than left 1600 people dead was worse than the creation and operation of Buchenwald, Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka, etc., where millions were murdered.

 

[ZiprHead]

No, what you are looking at is what comes out of the dog’s ass.

No. I'm recognizing the deception.

There are pictures of malnourished people. Both the UN and MSF report a large increase in malnutrition rates in children based on large samples.

At this point I don't care what the UN and MSF say, neither are remotely credible.

What's absolutely damning is that Hamas can't find them.

They Became Symbols for Gazan Starvation. But All 12 Suffer from Other Health Problems.

A Free Press investigation found that the viral photos lacked important context: The subjects have cystic fibrosis, rickets, or other serious ailments.

www.thefp.com

All their cases (12, I wasn't aware of some of them) have other medical causes.

With those reports along with a quarter of a year blockade of food and medicine followed by a resumption of 1/3 as much aid allowed in (IDF numbers), it only makes sense to rational thinkers that malnutrition substantially increased.

Check your source--is it truly IDF numbers, or UN numbers? Because 1/3 is about the percent of what's coming in that goes via the UN.

Denial that the gov’t of Israel’s blockade caused malnutrition is unbelievable. Such denials reduce credibility to less than zero.
One can sanely argue that malnutrition is the cost of such a legitimate tactic of war. It may not convince some, but it is honest and grounded firmly in reality.

If there really was malnutrition I find it utterly unbelievable that Hamas could find 12 fake cases and zero real cases.

Your denial is neither. It is incredibly insulting that any person with even a shred of integrity and rationality would expect any sane thinking person to accept such denials as valid.

Which makes me worried for you.

You still haven't addressed the issue of why Hamas can't find what is supposedly everywhere.

 

[ZiprHead]

I have merged the "Ethnic Cleansing" thread into this one. It was originally just a whataboutism of this thread anyway.

It wasn't whataboutism, it was pointing out the distorted reporting. It got derailed into matching this thread, though.

Uh huh...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

More collective punishment apologia.

You still haven't established the "punishment" part.

The Gazan population is no more or less responsible for the acts of their leaders than any other nation. We tried to avoid killing any more of the civilians in the Axis powers than we needed to but nobody was saying we can't go after Hitler because not every German elected him.

You take it as self-evident the Jews are in the wrong and provide no proof, nor give fair consideration to evidence that you're wrong. Why should we see the-Jew-is-always-wrong as any different than the Jim Crow the-black-is-always-wrong? See why Z keeps using the term "antisemitism"?? I disagree with him on this, I think it's just the result of manipulation rather than true antisemitism, but it sure waddles and quacks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You make no sense. We have nation states, so we can act as a single unit in foreign policy. That's just how we have chosen to organise our world. Calling it collective punishment is absurd. But sure... I am the guy who struggles with reality... lol

I have no idea what that word salad means.

Your lack of understanding doesn't make it wrong.

The world consists of nation states. We do not consider it punishment when the inhabitants of a nation state are harmed by a war the nation state is engaged in. And Hamas/Gaza sure waddles and quacks like a nation state.

 

[TomC]

It is when Nazis move from absolute worst to not-as-bad so Hamas can be made to sound like they're the ones who used the skin of murdered Jews to make lampshades.

Not all Nazis.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

No, what you are looking at is what comes out of the dog’s ass.

No. I'm recognizing the deception.

There are pictures of malnourished people. Both the UN and MSF report a large increase in malnutrition rates in children based on large samples.

At this point I don't care what the UN and MSF say, neither are remotely credible.

They are more credible than your hand-waved denials of substantiated facts.

I see no point in dealing with someone devoid of interest in the facts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This war is unique. Never before has a side in a war intentionally put it's own civilians in harms way. The Palestinian civilians are trapped in Gaza. That is also, almost unique. When there's a war in an urban area, civilians always get the fuck out.

Which side has had them locked in, for decades?

Lol. Wow. You have one real bad case of the antisemitism. I hope you recover

First of all, plenty of wars have had parties putting its own citizens in harms way.

You're omitting a very important word: "intentionally".

Secondly, enough with the allegations of antisemitism if someone disagrees with you. A little known fact is that Arabs and Jews are both semites.

Yeah, the term is technically wrong, but we all know what it refers to.

Finally, it is entirely possible to support a country even if you disagree vehemently with actions that country is taking. I’ll point out first my country, which I love wholeheartedly and which has chosen an incompetent megalomaniac who is racist, sexist and a rapist and convicted felon as its leader. Going back further, the US has an ugly history of its own genocide against indigenous people in addition to enslaving people who were stolen from their own countries—histories of deep and ugly racism which did not end with the Civil War or the Civil Rights Act. For starters. Europe has its own ugly history regarding Jews.

Knock it off with that shit.

The issue is not about objecting to certain actions. The objection is with the automatic belief in anything Hamas claimed happened even if improbable, and the automatic rejection of anything Israel says, even when it's what should be expected to have happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Learn some history. The barriers keeping people confined to Gaza first made an appearance when Zionists drove Palestinians into Gaza to make way for Jewish settlements in Ashkelon and the surrounding area when Israel was founded.

By the time suicide bombers made their appearance (coming from the West Bank btw) that separation barrier had been lengthened, strengthened, and rebuilt several times. It was there to secure the results of ethnic cleansing.

Learn some history. The vast majority of the people who went there did so of their own free will at Arab behest, getting out of the path of the planned Arab attack. Israel simply didn't allow them to return when they wouldn't agree to be peaceful.

 

[Arctish]

It is when Nazis move from absolute worst to not-as-bad so Hamas can be made to sound like they're the ones who used the skin of murdered Jews to make lampshades.

Not all Nazis.
Tom

As far as we know, not any member of Hamas.

 

[Arctish]

Learn some history. The barriers keeping people confined to Gaza first made an appearance when Zionists drove Palestinians into Gaza to make way for Jewish settlements in Ashkelon and the surrounding area when Israel was founded.

By the time suicide bombers made their appearance (coming from the West Bank btw) that separation barrier had been lengthened, strengthened, and rebuilt several times. It was there to secure the results of ethnic cleansing.

Learn some history. The vast majority of the people who went there did so of their own free will at Arab behest, getting out of the path of the planned Arab attack. Israel simply didn't allow them to return when they wouldn't agree to be peaceful.

Learn some history by following links to articles written by historians and other reputable sources, and by doing your own research.

Both your claim that the "vast majority" of the refugees in Gaza went there of their own free will, and that there was an offer to allow them to return, were shown to be nonsense years ago.

We discussed the history of the barrier between Israel and Gaza less than 2 months ago in this same thread. In case you missed the link (or more likely simply skipped over it) here's the post again.

 

[Toni]

This war is unique. Never before has a side in a war intentionally put it's own civilians in harms way. The Palestinian civilians are trapped in Gaza. That is also, almost unique. When there's a war in an urban area, civilians always get the fuck out.

Which side has had them locked in, for decades?

Lol. Wow. You have one real bad case of the antisemitism. I hope you recover

First of all, plenty of wars have had parties putting its own citizens in harms way.

You're omitting a very important word: "intentionally".

Secondly, enough with the allegations of antisemitism if someone disagrees with you. A little known fact is that Arabs and Jews are both semites.

Yeah, the term is technically wrong, but we all know what it refers to.

Finally, it is entirely possible to support a country even if you disagree vehemently with actions that country is taking. I’ll point out first my country, which I love wholeheartedly and which has chosen an incompetent megalomaniac who is racist, sexist and a rapist and convicted felon as its leader. Going back further, the US has an ugly history of its own genocide against indigenous people in addition to enslaving people who were stolen from their own countries—histories of deep and ugly racism which did not end with the Civil War or the Civil Rights Act. For starters. Europe has its own ugly history regarding Jews.

Knock it off with that shit.

The issue is not about objecting to certain actions. The objection is with the automatic belief in anything Hamas claimed happened even if improbable, and the automatic rejection of anything Israel says, even when it's what should be expected to have happened.

I also reject Hanas’s assertions and I do not automatically disbelieve Israel. I’m very firmly on the side of Israel having the right to exist and that no one should be targeted for their religious beliefs or to score political points.

I believe that both sides are guilty of horrendous acts of violence targeting citizens specifically. There is so much guilt on both sides that frankly they should be under a forced cease fire in perpetuity.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm going to keep taking a stand against racism in this thread. The moment this site actively defends and protects racists, I'm out of here. Then I should be banned, because this site won't be for me.

I'm going to keep calling out antisemitism in this thread.

I believe it's far more a matter of being manipulated than true hate. It's much easier to paint a lie than to rebut it, so it's inevitable that most lies go unrebutted. To see truth you have to back up and pay attention to which side has a track record of being proven right or proven wrong. And to accept that Israel is right is to accept that there is a horror that's being shoved in our faces about which there's nothing to be done. People routinely fall for the but-we-have-to-do-something arguments--never mind that what is proposed is almost never the right answer.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the Arab/Muslim rhetoric Islam owns the middle east. Christians and Jews are tolerated as long as they accept being second class citizens.

Same as uppity blacks in Jim Crow. Same as a woman escaping her abuser. Things turn much more violent when someone tries to throw off their chains. And the Jews not only threw off their chains, but did so in land Islam considered conquered.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Welcome to the Dr. Zoidberg tilt-a-whirl, where posts swing quickly back and forth between 'I feel for the Gazans, they are the victims of Hamas in this' and 'The Gazans are complicit with the crimes committed by Hamas against Israel'. Please make certain you are firmly strapped in, because this ride will jerk you all over more than riding an angry bull.

Not incompatible.

The Gazans are victims--of the oppressors that would use them as cannon fodder in the war against EastAsia. But because of a lifetime of manipulation they support those oppressors. Think of it like a cult.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The plain fact is no objective evidence of antisemitism, or terrorist apologia, or support for Hamas, or pro genocide, in any posts that are critical of Israel’s policies or actions. That has not stopped the supporters of Israel as a group in this thread from flinging such insults or providing apologia for them.

Refusing to see it doesn't make it not exist.

Explain the automatic acceptance of anything Hamas says, the automatic rejection of what Israel says. Hamas shows people conveniently shot in front of cameras by supposed IDF snipers, nobody will actually address the fact that makes an awful lot more sense to be Hamas doing it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.

Nor is it documented afaik. Source?

What I read is that the preponderance of expert analyses find that while some aid is lost due to theft, corruption, or involvement of various armed actors (including criminal gangs and possibly Hamas-affiliated individuals), the magnitude of diversion cannot be reliably quantified and is not regarded as “widespread” or massive. I think that if it was anywherevnearbyour 90% figure, there would be some documentation.

Why do I keep being asked for a source for what I've already posted in this thread multiple times? It's the UN's own data, 10% of what the UN actually brings into Gaza reaches it's intended destination.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have long said about aid being used for control. Somebody got around to actually studying it--even worse than I was aware of.

Aiding Who? Humanitarian Aid and the Continuation of War by Other Means

<p><strong>What must be done to aid civilians without simultaneously bankrolling those who harm them?</strong><br> We tackle this question through a comparati

papers.ssrn.com

The aid organizations know it's being diverted, they consider it normal. The 90% diversion in Gaza is not unusual.

Was there a reason this was the start of a new thread?

Yes, because the problem is universal. That paper is full of cases where the aid mostly or even entirely goes to the power blocks. I'm saying the 90% we see in Gaza is not an aberration from the norm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We like to hold up the Nazis and imperial Japanese as examples of terrible warring nations. As if they're the worst and most devoid of morals.

But the fact is that Hamas is way worse than the Nazis ever were.

They've set a new standard of how godawful an army can be

And ^there^ it is folks.

The redemption of the Nazis, made possible by the need to exaggerate the threat of a Palestinian terrorist organization.

The Nazis persecuted and enslaved Jews, confined them in concentration camps, built death camps so they could slaughter Jews by the millions, conducted horrific experiments on them, castrated and sterilized them without anesthesia, suffocated them in the backs of specially built trucks or simply shot or drowned them, built "showers" so they could herd Jews into gas chambers and then move the bodies to incinerators like a factory moves widgets, and so much more, but at least they weren't as bad as Hamas.

Redemption? Saying they aren't the greatest evil isn't redemption.

It is when Nazis move from absolute worst to not-as-bad so Hamas can be made to sound like they're the ones who used the skin of murdered Jews to make lampshades.

Do you agree with DrZoidberg? Do you believe that Hamas is way worse than the Nazis ever were?

If you don't, if you think the Nazis are still the worst and most devoid of morals then you should say so, because right now it looks like you're preparing to spout bullshit so you can claim a terrorist attack on a music festival than left 1600 people dead was worse than the creation and operation of Buchenwald, Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka, etc., where millions were murdered.

Comes down to yardsticks.

The Nazis unquestionably killed far more. But the gas chambers were about making it easier on the people doing the killing. Hamas glorifies atrocities, though. I find their intent far worse.