Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[bilby]

If you feel that military force against Hamas and Gazans in general is a good thing, then that's an opinion I don't share, but which you can probably justify. But if you feel that such force is in any way helpful to the hostages, you are utterly delusional.

The problem here is "good". It's not good. It's the least bad. It is entirely reasonable for Israel to set up the situation such that the fighting is not on their territory--Israel has no way to make there be no fighting. And note that it has gotten the majority of them out.

You missed my point. The question is not whether it is "good", it is whether it is "in any way helpful to the hostages".

It's not.

 

[steve_bank]

Therein lie the rub. Jew seized Arab land and with no compensation. The borders of Israel by agreement after the war were supposed to be settled, but Israel has never abide bay any agreements.

The border of Israel is wherever Israel can get away with setting it. When Israel seized Palestinian farms on the border Netanyahu when questioned said 'it is just a small piece of land'.

There has been no movement of the border other than due to attacks upon Israel. That's how war tends to work--you attack someone, you lose, they generally take some land.

The incident I referred to was around the last time Netanyahu spoke at the UN.

Israel has been displacing andreducong area occupied by Palestinians since the beginning.

Mass forced disparagement of a population was what we saw with Nazis and Japanese in WWII

Netanyahu has used the same kind excuses as Putyin with Ukarine.

Palestinians do not really exist.
They don;t rely own the land a family has been on for centuries.
Israel has an historical right to the land.

In occupied West Bank which is under Israeli military control Palestinian land is condemned, bulldozed, and building permits issued to Israelis.

Now today without any pretense armed Israeli citizens are occupying Palestine land.

Years back I watched a show on the issue. A Jewish immigrant form Australia talked about going to Israel because he would get free land in the West Bank.

 

[TomC]

Bibi is corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon terror for his political life.
If it’s not true why don’t genocide supporters argue it?

The Clintons and Joe Biden are also corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon lies for their political lives. Just ask Fox and Carlson or InfoWars and Jones or any of their other myriad detractors. Or the people who are convinced that their detractors are correct.
Tom

I think his detractors are at least in the ballpark on describing him--the thing is it doesn't matter. Any leader would take similar steps.

I don't doubt that you know more about him than I do. I can't even keep up with the dumbassery of American politicians.

But your key phrase there was "it doesn't matter". I'm confident that is true. There's no reason to think that his replacement will be particularly different or better. It's the same reason I doubt that Israel is particularly concerned with getting rid of Hamas. As long as Gazans are willing to support leadership like them their replacements are unlikely to be a noticable improvement.

Call me a cynical old pragmatist, but I don't think a change of names at the top is going to be a game changer.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why in the heck would you suggest I think that the hostages should forever remain hostages? Are you that certain of your own infalible brain, that any other thoughts have to be wickedpy wrong?

The hostages will remain hostages until something is done to deal with the situation.

"Something" doesn't have to be "nothing" or 20 more months of military action.

We don't have perfect knowledge. The choices are between write them off and continue to fight.

No, that is a false dichotomy.

Israel has tried releasing terrorists, it got them 10/7 and this time around Hamas simply quit going along. There is no other path to free them but force.

20 months says it hasn't worked for their release. Israel can't break Hamas this way.

I don't think Israel can break Hamas. All they can do is dismantle as much of it as possible. And they seem to have hit on a good tactic with the GHF--it was the aid that was supporting Hamas. And that's why Hamas is going bonkers over the GHF.

Hamas has billions in the bank. Hamas isn't going anywhere without Iran making it so.

ETA, one important thing to remember is that just because one side has a viable grievance, doesn't automatically make their response to the grievance constructive and/or moral.

Which is not presenting any other viable approach.

I can't personally solve Israel's Hamas issue... therefore whatever Netanyahu chooses to do is best. False dichotomy there.

It's not whether you can. What's important is nobody has a better plan.

My plan is to go to the source. How to get Iran to drop this seems impossible. People likely thought as such before Jordan and Egypt were taken out of the anti-Israel warpath, via a treaty... and a good amount of cash.

I remember writing right after the 9/11 attack that the hope was in that when all was said and done, that 9/11 remained the outstanding moral atrocity, not our response to it.

We didn't really have a choice. We had to clobber Afghanistan for reasons of deterrence.

Patriot Act, Torture policies, Iraq... Jesus fucking Christ. Can you string more than a few moments together?

I meant Afghanistan.

No shit Sherlock.

Patriot Act certainly shouldn't have happened by it's the same sort of thing I'm talking about with blaming Israel: Problem: 9/11. "Solution": Patriot Act. And people jumped at it. Problem: lots of dead people in front of the cameras. "Solution": Blame Israel.

Enough of your anti-Israel screed. Israel has been pounding on Gaza for 20 months. At some point it has to stop. You've already stated, repeatedly, that Hamas won't be broken. So there is no end to this. Israel isn't going away, Hamas isn't going away via military force. Why are we still doing this?

Your faith is wrong, sometimes there are only horrible choices.

You think the danger will always exist, therefore, a ceasefire for the release of the remaining hostages (if that could be established) would certainly be the best worst option.

Keywords: "if that could be established". Realistically, Israel would go along. Hamas, not a chance.

So bomb Gaza more, galvanize a generation of future Hamas fighters... and still not get the hostages. All those hostages can be released if the agreement is right. It might suck, but after 10/7, do you think for a second Mossad is going to let any of the people released disappear from their site? These hostages could have been released one year ago.

Your plan isn't working. How much longer should hostages suffer to keep to this plan? There are options for managing the cost of their release. I'm certain Mossad has servers full of plans.

 

[Elixir]

Basic math will give you the percentage.

Tells you nothing about how much Hamas gets.

 

[laughing dog]

Bibi is corrupt, undemocratic and reliant upon terror for his political life.
If it’s not true why don’t genocide supporters argue it?

We aren't genocide supporters. It's just we recognize that going around slapping a "genocide" label on something doesn't make it genocide.

And do you see any of us defending him? No. But we see the actions are defined by the situation, his being in charge has little to do with it.

The closest thing to genocide going on here is the violent Muslim supremacists using Gazans as cannon fodder/human shields.
Unfortunately, they have a ton of supporters and apologists.
Many of whom post in this thread.
Tom

How many supporters and apologists of violent Muslim supremacists using Gazans as cannon fodder/human shields post in this thread? I ask because “many” is a relative term, and without a more definite estimate, interested readers cannot reliably assess the accuracy of your claim.

 

[steve_bank]

Getting Iran to change is about as likely as Israel stopping occupation of Palestinian land.

It is an ethnic, racial, and religious conflict that goes far back in history, like the other conflicts around the world.

Jews are carrying a 2000 year old grudge for being conquered.

The long term consequences to Israel including internally are not predicable. The Arabs will never forget Gaza. One day it may come back to bite Israel. Our administrations change. 50 yers form now who knows what our foreign policy may be.

When it defeated the Arabs in he first war Israel could have been magnanimous in victory to Palestinians.

The old standby to criticism is to call it antisemitism..

 

[DrZoidberg]

Before 7/10 most Israelis thought he was paranoid for hammering on about Irans plan to attack Israel. He was proven correct.

Oddly enough, while PM, didn't apparently give a fuck about the red flags that were waving around prior to the massacre. Much like W, he was rewarded for his incompetence.

Sure. But nobody in Israel thought it was going to happen. They thought the cost of Israeli retaliation was enough to deter Hamas.

But nobody would have considered a war where one side uses their own population as human shields. That’s unique in world history.

Israeli voters know this now. Which will be excellent for him next election.

You aren't paying much attention to the on-goings in Israel, are you.

Yes, I am. But I blame all Palestinian deaths on Hamas. I am sure many Israelis do as well. That said, if there would be an election now he would lose. The fact that the 7/10 attack happened on his watch has been bad for him. But since the war his popularity has risen again.

If I recall now 46% trust Netanyahu a lot while 56 % don't trust him. 76% want him to resign. So many Israelis who trust him as a politician still wants him to resign. He's in a pretty unique position as a politician. Much of this war is completely unique

 

[ZiprHead]

We have aid workers coming back saying this is not being done by "snipers" who work from the shadows so they cannot be identified but by Israelis soldiers doing so out in the open.

And you don't see the double standard?

The shooters work from the shadows and can't be identified. Thus it's Israel, why???

Did your train of thought derail before you got to the second half of the last sentence???

And your faith is blinding you.

Your "evidence" is shots from unidentified people. Unidentified is unidentified, I'm questioning why you assume it's Israel. The outcome of such shots is highly negative for Israel, highly positive for Hamas. Shouldn't that put Hamas on the suspect list?

Because western eyewitnesses have said it was Israeli soldiers who were doing the shooting. That was the second part you ignored.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Getting Iran to change is about as likely as Israel stopping occupation of Palestinian land.

It is an ethnic, racial, and religious conflict that goes far back in history, like the other conflicts around the world.

No, it's not. Iran's govornment is an anomaly. It's just pure Islamofascism. Or rather... its just fascism. When Saddams Iraq folded Iran moved all their focus on to their second bogeyman, the Jews. If Israel goes away they will shift their focus to Bahia or Zoroastrians. This is how fascism works. Blame other people for your own incompetence

Jews are carrying a 2000 year old grudge for being conquered.

Sure. But its a mythic narrative. Myths matter. But aren't as important as more basic stuff, like where can I get a job and where can I find a nice house to live

Palestinians who live in Israel, don't join Hamas and do not do suicide bombings. They might complain about "the Jews". But based on their behaviour, they are cool with it. While the Palestinians in Gaza behave completely differently. As do the Palestinians in the West Bank. The same people. Just with three different economic prospects.

The long term consequences to Israel including internally are not predicable. The Arabs will never forget Gaza. One day it may come back to bite Israel. Our administrations change. 50 yers form now who knows what our foreign policy may be.

The other Arabs nations have already forgotten Gaza. They don't care about the Palestinians. Not even Jordan, that is 60% Palestinian give a shit.

Jolani, who is a Islamofascist and who already has been at war with Israel, does not want to fight Israel. He backed down the instant Israeli rockets landed. Jolani has a massive army now he's trying to decommission. Using it against Israel would buy him some time. He's still not using it.

When it defeated the Arabs in he first war Israel could have been magnanimous in victory to Palestinians.

The old standby to criticism is to call it antisemitism..

I think the other Aranb nations are too exhausted by previous Palestinian behaviour to give a shit about the Palestinians

Keep in mind that the Palestinians are like the Jews or gypsies of the Arabs. They already had the lowest status of the Arabs. Arabs really care about ethnicity. They're very racist. Not only against non-Arabs. Also against other Arabs. And Palestinians have among the lowest status among Arabs

Palestinians living in Lebanon quite literarily are second class citizens. Lebanon have racist laws against them. They don't have racist laws against Jews

 

[DrZoidberg]

We have aid workers coming back saying this is not being done by "snipers" who work from the shadows so they cannot be identified but by Israelis soldiers doing so out in the open.

And you don't see the double standard?

The shooters work from the shadows and can't be identified. Thus it's Israel, why???

Did your train of thought derail before you got to the second half of the last sentence???

And your faith is blinding you.

Your "evidence" is shots from unidentified people. Unidentified is unidentified, I'm questioning why you assume it's Israel. The outcome of such shots is highly negative for Israel, highly positive for Hamas. Shouldn't that put Hamas on the suspect list?

Because western eyewitnesses have said it was Israeli soldiers who were doing the shooting. That was the second part you ignored.

It doesn't matter if there's eye witnesses. It doesn't make Israel guilty. As long as Hamas fighters look like civilians, then civilians will keep accidentally get shot. Soldiers primary objective is to stay alive and not take unnecessary risks. This is why it's so extremely irresponsible by Hamas not to wear uniforms. Its pretty basic to modern warfare.

Other Arab nations know this. Which informs their current attitude towards Hamas.

Another army that behaved almost as bad as Hamas was ISIS. All other Arab nation lost all love for ISIS, really fast

 

[Elixir]

It's just we recognize that going around slapping a "genocide" label on something doesn't make it genocide.

No, of course "we" recognize that. Labels don't make it genocide.
What makes it genocide is a starvation campaign following a murderous indiscriminate campaign of violence mostly targeting civilians including women and children.

THAT is genocide.

"A recent analysis of Israeli military data and Health Ministry figures revealed that at least 83% of the people killed in Gaza were civilians; if only confirmed militant deaths are counted, the percentage may be even higher, above 86%. That would mean over 51,000 Gazan civilians have been killed so far—a number supported by both health ministry reporting and independent expert assessments."
IDF Data


And of course that doesn't include the ongoing body count from starvation and malnutrition, which - according to you - cannot include any Hamas because they're rolling in food they appropriated from aid distributions.

Another army that behaved almost as bad as Hamas was ISIS. All other Arab nation lost all love for ISIS, really fast

And the IDF - don't forget them. Next thing you know, the Arabs will be disowning them!

 

[pood]

It's just we recognize that going around slapping a "genocide" label on something doesn't make it genocide.

No, of course "we" recognize that. Labels don't make it genocide.
What makes it genocide is a starvation campaign following a murderous indiscriminate campaign of violence mostly targeting civilians including women and children.

THAT is genocide.

"A recent analysis of Israeli military data and Health Ministry figures revealed that at least 83% of the people killed in Gaza were civilians; if only confirmed militant deaths are counted, the percentage may be even higher, above 86%. That would mean over 51,000 Gazan civilians have been killed so far—a number supported by both health ministry reporting and independent expert assessments."
IDF Data


And of course that doesn't include the ongoing body count from starvation and malnutrition, which - according to you - cannot include any Hamas because they're rolling in food they appropriated from aid distributions.

Another army that behaved almost as bad as Hamas was ISIS. All other Arab nation lost all love for ISIS, really fast

And the IDF - don't forget them. Next thing you know, the Arabs will be disowning them!

<snip>

Content snipped, post reported.

 

[pood]

Dr. Zoidberg has deliberately made this thread into a sewer to deflect from his apologia for genocide and starvation of children.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Dr. Zoidberg has deliberately made this thread into a sewer to deflect from his apologia for genocide and starvation of children.

I just have a problem with racism and bigotry. When the degree of racist hatred is this bad, it makes having adult conversations hard. The racism just seems to hamper the ability to think straight

 

[ZiprHead]

Dr. Zoidberg has deliberately made this thread into a sewer to deflect from his apologia for genocide and starvation of children.

I just have a problem with racism and bigotry. When the degree of racist hatred is this bad, it makes having adult conversations hard. The racism just seems to hamper the ability to think straight

Just stop that bullshit. Being critical of government policy in Israel is not racism or bigotry. No one has ever in this thread criticized any Israeli just for being Jewish.

 

[pood]

Dr. Zoidberg has deliberately made this thread into a sewer to deflect from his apologia for genocide and starvation of children.

I just have a problem with racism and bigotry. When the degree of racist hatred is this bad, it makes having adult conversations hard. The racism just seems to hamper the ability to think straight

No, you doh’t. You are a racist and a bigot. None of your interlocutors is an antisemite or a racist, but you have an innate need to turn everything into the sewer that is a projection of your own twisted mind

 

[ZiprHead]

No, you doh’t. You are a racist and a bigot.

This is true. The way he talks about Muslims is quite bigoted.

 

[pood]

Dr. Zoidberg has deliberately made this thread into a sewer to deflect from his apologia for genocide and starvation of children.

I just have a problem with racism and bigotry. When the degree of racist hatred is this bad, it makes having adult conversations hard. The racism just seems to hamper the ability to think straight

Every accusation is a confession,

 

[laughing dog]

I just have a problem with racism and bigotry.

You most certainly do. But you’ve taken the first step in your acknowledgment of your racism and bigotry. Congratualtions!

When the degree of racist hatred is this bad, it makes having adult conversations hard. The racism just seems to hamper the ability to think straight

I hope every thread participant accepts this clumsy attempt at amends in order to help this recovering bigot. We are here to help your healing!