Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Any evidence of this?

Nobody has yet addressed the inconvenient reality that Iran is backing horrors all over the region. The Jews certainly didn't cause the Sudan genocides. Nor that country next to Somalia that I keep forgetting the name of. And Yemen--they've basically taken over Yemen by now.

So are we. So is every "great power". We are all fighting vicious wars in other people's backyards, wars that mostly take innocents and cannot be won or even ended. But you've just to wave your stupid flag over the next field of corpses, eh? You're feigning outrage about countries you can't even remember the name of, for fuck's sake, while plotting the deaths of thousands more in countries the media hasn't even taught you specifically to hate yet.

So much human potential wasted.

Somalia's neighbors are Kenya, Ethiopia, and Djbouti. They have a disputed border with Ethiopea, and are fighting a civil war against a religious extremist organization called Al-Shabab.

And just sort of shouting your opinion again is not "evidence" by any reasonable definition of that word.

We aren't involved in most of Iran's wars.

And it's Eritrea that I keep forgetting. Wasn't on the map I learned growing up.

And the wars are unwinnable because we have been fighting against fundamentalist Islamist terrorists with backing from states we do not want to go to war with. Not fighting just means fighting them later when they're stronger. It's fight them there, or fight them here later.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Literally adjacent posts:

I am not Z, we disagree about some of the details.

Eleven minutes later:

Your side keeps arguing emotions, you are generally unwilling to face the unpleasant facts.

(my bold)

FFS.

Your side is presenting a pretty monolithic position. Nothing less than perfection is acceptable from Israel, Israel is the cause of the violence, and they are automatically wrong in any disputed issue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And they are aware of this. Educated Arabs are very aware that Arab culture is dysfunctional and that western values are, in general, better. They understand that the reason the Middle-East is a mess, is Arab culture. But it is culture. It's in our bones. It's hard to change. But I have hope. I'm convinced Arabs can change, and will change. It just takes time. It's also not just religion. All the various religions in the area, have roughly, the same culture. So I'm not going to just blame it on Islam. Right now Gazans are of course extremely aware of how awful Hamas is. I'm hoping enough Gazans get over their fear of being religious traitors, and turn on Hamas. It is happening. To an extent.

I don't even think it's religion. Look up hydraulic empire. (I learned it as water monopoly empire) There is no term for a food monopoly empire but that's what Hamas has been. The people can't turn on Hamas without starving. But this means the GHF may break Hamas' stranglehold.

 

[Politesse]

Any evidence of this?

Nobody has yet addressed the inconvenient reality that Iran is backing horrors all over the region. The Jews certainly didn't cause the Sudan genocides. Nor that country next to Somalia that I keep forgetting the name of. And Yemen--they've basically taken over Yemen by now.

So are we. So is every "great power". We are all fighting vicious wars in other people's backyards, wars that mostly take innocents and cannot be won or even ended. But you've just to wave your stupid flag over the next field of corpses, eh? You're feigning outrage about countries you can't even remember the name of, for fuck's sake, while plotting the deaths of thousands more in countries the media hasn't even taught you specifically to hate yet.

So much human potential wasted.

Somalia's neighbors are Kenya, Ethiopia, and Djbouti. They have a disputed border with Ethiopea, and are fighting a civil war against a religious extremist organization called Al-Shabab.

And just sort of shouting your opinion again is not "evidence" by any reasonable definition of that word.

We aren't involved in most of Iran's wars.

And it's Eritrea that I keep forgetting. Wasn't on the map I learned growing up.

And the wars are unwinnable because we have been fighting against fundamentalist Islamist terrorists with backing from states we do not want to go to war with. Not fighting just means fighting them later when they're stronger. It's fight them there, or fight them here later.

"We" aren't fighting anyone, you coward. Mailing bullets to a foreign country so they can keep your boogeymen away is not fighting a war. But no, our allies will not win any wars either. Modern wars are hydras, they cannot be "won" for any length of time and their blood permanently poisons and withers the ground.

 

[bilby]

Literally adjacent posts:

I am not Z, we disagree about some of the details.

Eleven minutes later:

Your side keeps arguing emotions, you are generally unwilling to face the unpleasant facts.

(my bold)

FFS.

Your side is presenting a pretty monolithic position. Nothing less than perfection is acceptable from Israel, Israel is the cause of the violence, and they are automatically wrong in any disputed issue.

Literally none of those three things are part of my position, nor (therefore) of any side to which I could possibly belong.

 

[ZiprHead]

“Designed as Death Traps”: Fmr. Green Beret Who Worked at Gaza Food Sites Reveals Rampant War Crimes

As more than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed seeking aid at militarized aid distribution sites run by the U.S.- and Israel-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a former GHF security contractor tells Democracy Now! he saw U.S. mercenaries and Israeli forces commit war crimes by indiscriminately shooting at starving Palestinians waiting for aid. “What I witnessed in Gaza, I can only describe as a dystopian, post-apocalyptic wasteland,” says Anthony Aguilar, a retired U.S. soldier who worked as a subcontractor with UG Solutions in the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation aid delivery operation. “We, the United States, are complicit. We are involved, hand in hand, in the atrocities and the genocide that is currently undergoing in Gaza.”

What I witnessed in Gaza, I can only describe as a dystopian, post-apocalyptic wasteland. We — we, the United States — are complicit. We are involved, hand in hand, in the atrocities and the genocide that is currently undergoing in Gaza. For anyone who says that there is no starvation or mass hunger, or that not only are we at the precipice, but we have stepped over the line of wide-scale famine, to anyone who says that that’s not happening, shame on you. Shame on you. It’s inhumane.

What I witnessed in Gaza at all four distribution sites — I didn’t just go to one for a photo-op. I didn’t go to one to watch a distribution and then say, “Yes, this looks great.” I spent days on end in Gaza at all four distribution sites, at Kerem Shalom, where the aid is loaded for distribution, and at both operation centers that control the daily convoys, logistics operations and distribution for the four sites. What I saw on the sites, around the sites, to and from the sites, can be described as nothing but war crimes, crimes against humanity, violations of international law. This is not hyperbole. This is not platitudes or drama. This is the truth.

I break that down by what I would describe as the sites themselves. I spoke to Senator Van Hollen last week, and we had a very frank discussion on the status of the sites and what’s at these sites. The sites have not only become death traps, they were designed as death traps. All four distribution locations were intentionally, deliberately constructed, planned and built in the middle of an active combat zone. Some may argue, “Well, all of Gaza is a war zone.” That may be true, but there are parts of Gaza that are direct — or, determined to be active, operational combat zones where Israeli Defense Forces are operating. Those sites were built in the middle of those areas intentionally. It’s not by accident. That, in and of itself, to designate humanitarian distribution sites to service an unarmed, starving population, to build them deliberately in an active combat zone, is a violation of the Geneva Convention protocols. It’s a violation of humanitarian law. And in my opinion, it’s a violation of humanity in general.

Video and full transcript available in the link.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Literally adjacent posts:

I am not Z, we disagree about some of the details.

Eleven minutes later:

Your side keeps arguing emotions, you are generally unwilling to face the unpleasant facts.

(my bold)

FFS.

Your side is presenting a pretty monolithic position. Nothing less than perfection is acceptable from Israel, Israel is the cause of the violence, and they are automatically wrong in any disputed issue.

Literally none of those three things are part of my position, nor (therefore) of any side to which I could possibly belong.

That's not the impression I have gotten

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your side keeps arguing emotions, you are generally unwilling to face the unpleasant facts. Like the 90% diversion rate: https://app.un2720.org/tracking/ Like the fact that all the starvation photos are medical: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skvxuqxdxl

Your obsession over starvation photos is bizarre. First, malnutrition exacerbates existing medical conditions. Second, both the UN and MSF report a significant increase in observed malnutrition rates among children based on 1000s of treated children. For some reason, you think blockading food entry for a couple of months and then keeping food aid to less than half the pre war deliveries through delaying delivery via inspections has mo effect on human health.

I "obsess" over it because it's a smoking gun. It shows that a major aspect of the Hamas propaganda is false.

And you aren't getting it, you are taking it on blind faith that the starvation is real despite clear evidence it's all a sham. Every one of the cases were people who were suffering from problems of metabolism or were experiencing the loss of appetite that's common with impending cancer deaths. I'm sure you've seen pictures of emaciated cancer patients.

Like that study that shows that aid always goes to the oppressors, never the victims: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5380004

If you read that unrefereed study, you’d know it says nothing of the sort. It is a case study of selected aid programs. In some examples, it gives estimates of diversion rates (always less than 100%). In others, it hives examples of conditions placed on aid distribution.

Your response is not based on facts but bias. Which makes it epically ironic.

What large scale aid operation did they miss?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nobody here is a Hamas member that needs vanquishing. What does exist here is the chance to change minds through discourse. I’ll be the first to admit I’m ignorant of plenty when it comes to the Middle East, that’s why I’m here, sharing opinions and reading sources others post. You don’t agree with me? Fine. Explain why. But if your move is to smear me as a Hamas supporter or accuse me of backing genocide, then you can fuck right off with that.

You get more of what you reward. You reward dead civilians in Gaza. You believe that you're on the side of good but you're actually enabling great evil.

 

[laughing dog]

Your side keeps arguing emotions, you are generally unwilling to face the unpleasant facts. Like the 90% diversion rate: https://app.un2720.org/tracking/ Like the fact that all the starvation photos are medical: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skvxuqxdxl

Your obsession over starvation photos is bizarre. First, malnutrition exacerbates existing medical conditions. Second, both the UN and MSF report a significant increase in observed malnutrition rates among children based on 1000s of treated children. For some reason, you think blockading food entry for a couple of months and then keeping food aid to less than half the pre war deliveries through delaying delivery via inspections has mo effect on human health.

I "obsess" over it because it's a smoking gun. It shows that a major aspect of the Hamas propaganda is false.

And you aren't getting it, you are taking it on blind faith that the starvation is real despite clear evidence it's all a sham. Every one of the cases were people who were suffering from problems of metabolism or were experiencing the loss of appetite that's common with impending cancer deaths. I'm sure you've seen pictures of emaciated cancer patients.

I haven’t mentioned starvation. I haven’t mentioned photos. You are making medical diagnoses from photos, not me.

I talk about malnutrition which, among other things, exacerbates metabolism issues. Malnutrition that is reported on the significant rise from large samples taken by medical personal.

Like that study that shows that aid always goes to the oppressors, never the victims: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5380004

If you read that unrefereed study, you’d know it says nothing of the sort. It is a case study of selected aid programs. In some examples, it gives estimates of diversion rates (always less than 100%). In others, it hives examples of conditions placed on aid distribution.

Your response is not based on facts but bias. Which makes it epically ironic.

What large scale aid operation did they miss?

Stop blowing smoke. The study does not show all aid goes to the oppressors as you claim. The fact you did not specify “large scale aid” is irrelevant - you are making a claim about a study you chose.

 

[laughing dog]

Nobody here is a Hamas member that needs vanquishing. What does exist here is the chance to change minds through discourse. I’ll be the first to admit I’m ignorant of plenty when it comes to the Middle East, that’s why I’m here, sharing opinions and reading sources others post. You don’t agree with me? Fine. Explain why. But if your move is to smear me as a Hamas supporter or accuse me of backing genocide, then you can fuck right off with that.

You get more of what you reward. You reward dead civilians in Gaza. You believe that you're on the side of good but you're actually enabling great evil.

You realize that accurately describes Netanahyu’s policy, its acolytes, and its apologists?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Only lunatics would say such a thing. Too bad the left today is gripped by a kind of collective psychosis right now. The fact that many share the view makes it less excusable. Not more.

It's not a psychosis, it's just they are being manipulated.

That's a question of definition. An induced mass psychosis through manipulation, is both.

How do you determine it's not you who are being manipulated and suffering psychosis?

Your side keeps arguing emotions, duration, body count, generalized suffering.... you are generally unwilling to face the unpleasant facts.

FIFY

Duration: Proves nothing.
Body count: Always deceptive. The only body count we have is from Hamas and we know there are big problems with it. Civilian/combatant ratios matter--and Israel is doing better than anyone else. There recently has been an attempt to discredit this by pretending Israel's list of positively identified known dead terrorists stands at around 9,000--as if someone next to a known terrorist is always a civilian.

What you are actually after is getting the horrors off the front page. If the hungry people were the real issue why are you pestering Israel when the real horrors are in Africa?

Like the 90% diversion rate: https://app.un2720.org/tracking/ Like the fact that all the starvation photos are medical: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skvxuqxdxl Like that study that shows that aid always goes to the oppressors, never the victims: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5380004

I saw a piece on CBC, there was a starving teenager because of celiac. Siblings certainly didn't look chunky. But not starving.

Exactly--other medical problems.

It doesn't appear that Gaza is starving to death, though a few are... and as a result of the siege. In the US, we feel a bit bad that people are going hungry.... not reaching the point of starvation. Are these the bars you think are humane?

And the siege somehow causes celiac??

And people are going hungry because Hamas limits the food. You continue to ignore this unpleasant reality.

Are we going to be at this point in another 22 months, where you are saying this is the only way it can work? Does this never end and this is the new normal?

The war has been going on nearly 80 years, sometimes hotter, sometimes cooler. The only endpoints with peace are Iran quits funding the terror or the whole place is gone.

 

[bilby]

Literally adjacent posts:

I am not Z, we disagree about some of the details.

Eleven minutes later:

Your side keeps arguing emotions, you are generally unwilling to face the unpleasant facts.

(my bold)

FFS.

Your side is presenting a pretty monolithic position. Nothing less than perfection is acceptable from Israel, Israel is the cause of the violence, and they are automatically wrong in any disputed issue.

Literally none of those three things are part of my position, nor (therefore) of any side to which I could possibly belong.

That's not the impression I have gotten

You should ask yourself why not. Because it's certainly not from reading what I have actually written here.

If you disagree, feel free to post a quote of me saying any of those three things.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Here's another good one, on how antisemitism today works.

 

[laughing dog]

Here's another good one, on how antisemitism today works.

Nah. Possibly angering Jewish people or advocating that civilians of any group are not killed is not antisemitism. Calling it antisemitism smacks of desperation and stupidity.