Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[laughing dog]

And where have I said the IDF lies? I have said they make mistakes, but that's not the same as lying. I pointed out that the reporters were going with a quote that did not mean what was implied. (Saying they can't prove it's Hamas diverting the aid doesn't prove it's not.)

You said they apologize for “mistakes” without knowing the facts.

And this is lying? No, it's uncertainty. Somebody fabricates something about them, they can't quickly rule it out so they apologize, but in time we often see it was a fabrication.

It’s called bullshitting. And it is lying when the incident is nit a mistake.

The IDF report says they found no evidence of systemstic diversion by Hamas. That has nothing whatsoever do with whatever you imagine some reporters wrote.

They said they couldn't prove it was Hamas behind all the diversion. That is not the same as exonerating them. Since OJ wasn't the killer clearly his wife is still alive.

No, they said they found mo evidence of systemic diversion. No one claimed exoneration. You seem to be having reading comprehension issues today.

The obvious point is that it rubbishes your claims about Hamas stealing most of the aid.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have a (philosopher) friend who I think might have the best explanation for why the left is pro Ukraine, but anti Israel. It has to do with power and power diffrential. The left today is obsessed with relative power. Arguably, they always were. Whoever has the most power is always in the wrong, no matter what anyone has done.

That might explain why leftists are so anti America. Like they can't do anything right.

I think it's a good theory.

Basically the same thing I have said in a different way. There's a solution. The side with the power is expected to find it. If they didn't find it that means they didn't look hard enough because faith says it must exist. The total inability for anyone to find it means nothing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please stop with these videos. They don't prove shit. None of them. Staging stuff like this is so easy. And propaganda is Hamas main weapon of choice. Everything about this conflict is just Hamas trying to maximise Palestinian civilian casualties and suffering to score propaganda points. Because they know they can't win a regular war. Their war is propaganda. Perhaps not intitially. But certainly now.

I'm sick of people (and news stations) uncritically sharing these clips. But also pro-Israelis wasting all that effort in trying to refute them.

It reminds me of the Intelligent design debate 20 years ago. Creationist flooded every channel with idiotic creationist videos. The more scientifically minded puts loads of effort and time into refuting the videos. It was just a tremendous waste of time and effort. Both camps were just preaching to the already converted. Nothing changed.

Hamas has already been lying so much their pants couldn't be more on fire. Yet the media keeps sharing their videos. Leftists around the world clearly don't give a fuck about the truth. They'll just keep uncritically sharing the videos and working themselves up to an indignant frenzy. I consider myself politically on the left, and this behavior hurts my feelings.

I posted the video because it was being used to show the fakery. This isn't a demonstration of Israeli horrors, it's a demonstration of the fabrication of supposed Israeli horrors. We keep being told that what the "aid workers" is true--I'm impeaching the witness. And this by far not the first time we see the supposed damage from Israeli strikes that doesn't look like weapon damage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I suspect it's inbuilt in the thinking. Leftists are sensitive to injustices. Which is good. But this is a muscle that fires too frequently. Even when it's not necessary. Everything isn't systematic opression. A lot of stuff is just people's varying tastes and interest, for a multitude of reasons. Leftists struggle with accepting this. Something I've noticed, looking at it from the inside.

It's a problem of any social movement--can't admit success and quit because that would make the leaders nothings.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I will still note that the Israelis, unlike Hamas, have mechanisms to note and correct abuses or when things are not right or correct.

Exactly. Nobody gets everything right, the real test is how error is handled. And that's something that authoritarian systems fail badly at. Chernobyl in the US? One of the operators would have been on the horn with the NRC long before the reactor blew.

 

[Arctish]

I have a (philosopher) friend who I think might have the best explanation for why the left is pro Ukraine, but anti Israel. It has to do with power and power diffrential. The left today is obsessed with relative power. Arguably, they always were. Whoever has the most power is always in the wrong, no matter what anyone has done.

That might explain why leftists are so anti America. Like they can't do anything right.

I think it's a good theory.

Basically the same thing I have said in a different way. There's a solution. The side with the power is expected to find it. If they didn't find it that means they didn't look hard enough because faith says it must exist. The total inability for anyone to find it means nothing.

Thousands of years of recorded history tells us that wars end.

Your belief that this particular one can't end in anything but genocide and ethnic cleansing is a product of your mindset, not an inevitable conclusion given the history of the region or the world.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Hamas is to blame for the slaughter. They can end the whole thing immediately: Surrender unconditionally, totally disarm, and release all the hostages.

The Thirty-Years' War was much worse, for atrocities.

At this point, there's no limits on either side. Both sides go to the extreme. Hamas is holding out, hoping Israel will be blamed and quit prematurely. And Israel is not letting this Hamas strategy work. There are no more rules other than: Win at any price no matter what. Same as WW2, where the allies did not stop until the enemy surrendered unconditionally.

Yes it's horrible, outrageous what Hamas is inflicting onto those innocent civilians. Hamas is to blame for all the starvation and suffering.

And just like the U.S. Civil War, the good guys too are guilty of many atrocities, unnecessary killings. When it finally ends, Israel should be rebuked for its crimes, and maybe some individuals prosecuted. Like some U.S. troops were prosecuted for atrocities in Viet Nam. But it's up to Hamas to stop this nightmare.

 

[bilby]

Hamas is to blame for the slaughter. They can end the whole thing immediately: Surrender unconditionally, totally disarm, and release all the hostages.

Sure they could. They ain't gonna though, so why waste pixels talking about it?

The Thirty-Years' War was much worse, for atrocities.

I would like to think we have managed to advance at least a teeny bit in four hundred years.

At this point, there's no limits on either side.

That's not true.

Both sides go to the extreme.

No, they really don't.

Hamas is holding out, hoping Israel will be blamed and quit prematurely. And Israel is not letting this Hamas strategy work. There are no more rules other than: Win at any price no matter what.

Yeah, there are.

Same as WW2, where the allies did not stop until the enemy surrendered unconditionally.

In WW2, the Russians and Germans (on the Eastern Front) did that. So did the Japanese. But on the Western Front, all parties at least tried to follow the rules of war, most of the time. The use of gas against civillians was expected by both sides, but never happened. And in the Pacific Theatre, the Allies were still trying to play by the rules right up to the end - despite Japanese disdain for such things.

Yes it's horrible, outrageous what Hamas is inflicting onto those innocent civilians.

Yes, it is.

Hamas is to blame for all the starvation and suffering.

Sure, but not solely to blame. And like the Allies in the Pacific Theatre, who faced an enemy who cared little for the rules, we expect better from the supposed "good guys".

Israel should refrain from atrocities, both because they are better than their enemy, and because atrocities don't work.

And just like the U.S. Civil War, the good guys too are guilty of many atrocities, unnecessary killings.

Then they weren't really "good guys". Which should shock nobody.

When it finally ends, Israel should be rebuked for its crimes, and maybe some individuals prosecuted.

Yup.

Like some U.S. troops were prosecuted for atrocities in Viet Nam.

Yup.

But it's up to Hamas to stop this nightmare.

Not really. It takes two to tango.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I have a (philosopher) friend who I think might have the best explanation for why the left is pro Ukraine, but anti Israel. It has to do with power and power diffrential. The left today is obsessed with relative power. Arguably, they always were. Whoever has the most power is always in the wrong, no matter what anyone has done.

That might explain why leftists are so anti America. Like they can't do anything right.

I think it's a good theory.

Basically the same thing I have said in a different way. There's a solution. The side with the power is expected to find it. If they didn't find it that means they didn't look hard enough because faith says it must exist. The total inability for anyone to find it means nothing.

Thousands of years of recorded history tells us that wars end.

Your belief that this particular one can't end in anything but genocide and ethnic cleansing is a product of your mindset, not an inevitable conclusion given the history of the region or the world.

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows. But since 1948, hardline Palestinians (who control Gaza and the West Bank) have wanted Jewish land; and the hard line Israelis (who control Israel) have wanted Palestinian land. Until this changes on both sides, there will be no peace.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hamas is to blame for the slaughter. They can end the whole thing immediately: Surrender unconditionally, totally disarm, and release all the hostages.

The Thirty-Years' War was much worse, for atrocities.

At this point, there's no limits on either side. Both sides go to the extreme. Hamas is holding out, hoping Israel will be blamed and quit prematurely. And Israel is not letting this Hamas strategy work. There are no more rules other than: Win at any price no matter what. Same as WW2, where the allies did not stop until the enemy surrendered unconditionally.

Yes it's horrible, outrageous what Hamas is inflicting onto those innocent civilians. Hamas is to blame for all the starvation and suffering.

And just like the U.S. Civil War, the good guys too are guilty of many atrocities, unnecessary killings. When it finally ends, Israel should be rebuked for its crimes, and maybe some individuals prosecuted. Like some U.S. troops were prosecuted for atrocities in Viet Nam. But it's up to Hamas to stop this nightmare.

What atrocities do you think Israel is committing?

 

[bilby]

I have my doubts that this war will never truly end. There will be cooling off periods for sure. And one is probably coming sometime soon, who knows.

That's exactly how I felt about the Irish 'Troubles'. The IRA were never going away, the border between the Republic and the Six Counties would always be heavily militarised, and terririst attacks in England and against British military forces around the world would would continue to happen, with occasional flare-ups, interspersed with cooling-off periods.

I felt the same way about the Cold War; The USSR and the USA would always be facing off in a thermonuclear stalemate across the Iron Curtain, with diplomaric machinations, strategic moves of forces, brinkmanship, and proxy wars worldwide, hotly fought but with just enough remove from the main players to avoid nuclear war - most of the time.

And then, one day, it all went away.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Israel military strike in Doha. Sounds like they might not have got much out of it.

Hamas is to blame for the slaughter. They can end the whole thing immediately: Surrender unconditionally, totally disarm, and release all the hostages.

The Thirty-Years' War was much worse, for atrocities.

At this point, there's no limits on either side. Both sides go to the extreme. Hamas is holding out, hoping Israel will be blamed and quit prematurely. And Israel is not letting this Hamas strategy work. There are no more rules other than: Win at any price no matter what. Same as WW2, where the allies did not stop until the enemy surrendered unconditionally.

Yes it's horrible, outrageous what Hamas is inflicting onto those innocent civilians. Hamas is to blame for all the starvation and suffering.

And just like the U.S. Civil War, the good guys too are guilty of many atrocities, unnecessary killings. When it finally ends, Israel should be rebuked for its crimes, and maybe some individuals prosecuted. Like some U.S. troops were prosecuted for atrocities in Viet Nam. But it's up to Hamas to stop this nightmare.

What atrocities do you think Israel is committing?