Charlie Kirk shot at (shot?) in Utah

[Toni]

Yet you have zero problem with the demonstrated fact that with a single exception every single elected POTUS and VP has been white and male.

Seems like a very very strong preference to me.

Look, you know I disagree with LP on damned near every topic like this, but I think you're stretching things here. It's entirely possible to be quite happy and open to non-white or non-male (or both) leaders while still opposing affirmative action or diversity objectives as the reason why we get non-white or non-male leaders.

Seriously, I would love to have a competent, powerful, intelligent woman in charge of the US. But I'd like her to get there on her own merits, not because some collection of guilt-ridden people decided that we had to have a female president to make some sort of social statement.

But why should we think that Kamala Harris, for example, did not get where she was on her own merits?

Realistically... because Biden literally said he was only going to consider black women for the role of VP. And because her record as AG and senator were pretty blase and even unattractive. And because there were several other female contenders who did considerably better than her in the run-up, but who were not considered because they were white.

If Biden hadn't actually declared his intention to have a black woman as VP, there'd have certainly been less scrutiny, and less questioning of her qualification and suitability. Then again, if Biden hadn't been set on having a black woman... he'd have likely selected someone that the public liked better, and who would have had a significantly better chance of beating Trump.

My honest thoughts? Lots of people don’t like her because she’s black and lots of people don’t like her because she’s a woman.

I also believe that Biden stepped in in 2020 to save us from Trump, correctly assessing that a white establishment make was needed to quell the bots of sexism and racism most of us do not like to admit even to ourselves. Maybe especially to ourselves.

I think that he believed that Trump was finished after the first disastrous term. I thought so. I think Biden had no intention of running for a second term until Trump stated he was running again. I think Biden, despite advancing age and possible failing health thought it was his duty to run a second time to defeat Trump.

I think a lot of people who don’t know as much as they think they do( looking at you celebrities) started to make noise about Biden not being well enough to serve a second term and began pressuring him to step aside—after announcing he would run again and into the summer, giving any other candidate a very short time to campaign. Perhaps he overestimated the American people and thought they’d learned their lessons: Trump the first time. I think it was a grave mistake.

Harris was never my favorite candidate. I like her even less now.

I’m ok with voting for candidates who are not my personal favorites. I vote for who I believe is the better candidate. I’ve only truly liked and wholeheartedly heartedly, without reservation, voted for two candidates who won POTUS. I mostly have voted for candidates who lost.

 

[Toni]

"If you don't vote for Dems, you're a fascist nazi"?

Who (other than @Emily Lake ) said that?

There ARE other possibilities:

* You may be equally disgusted with “both sides”
* You may be totally ignorant of the facts on the ground
* You may agree with the right’s policies but be unaware of their fascist implementation tactics
* You may agree with the right’s policies and think some fascist tactics are warranted as a temporary requirement to accomplish reforms
* You may agree with the left’s objectives but detest the left’s candidates

In fact the possibilities are literally infinite, but not in the B&W world of @Emily Lake’s binary representations for rhetorical convenience.

FWIW, the most likely explanation for not voting Dem is that you support the Republican ticket. The fact is that the most likely explanation for that support is ignorance rather than malevolence.
OTOH if that is not the case for a given individual, the possibility that that individual is a fascist Nazi rises to or near the top of the probability list. IMHO though, that possibility is dwarfed by victims of RW propaganda who believe that voting for the fascist Party is the best way to preserve American democracy and save it from the commie lib scumbag child predators as represented by the RW propaganda machine.

Got it Ems?

I used to agree that people voted for Trump out of ignorance but I know ( and have severed ties with with a couple) who are intelligent, well read individuals who, as it turns out, are not opposed to a bit of fascism or sexism and are much more comfortable with a world where white is right and everybody knew their place. They would be angry at me writing this but, it’s based on conversations I’ve had with them. Ironically, one had a family member whose side the Holocaust by fleeing Europe in the 30’s. No, his love of Trump had nothing to do with Israel or religion, real or fake. It’s that deep down, neither can quite figure out how their lives turned out as they did. Must be someone else’s fault.

 

[Elixir]

I know ( and have severed ties with with a couple) who are intelligent, well read individuals who, as it turns out, are not opposed to a bit of fascism or sexism

I think I mentioned them above.
Again, I believe they are a minority among people who didn’t vote for Harris. They might even be outnumbered by genuine fascist Nazis. But the predominant group is ignorant victims of RW propaganda, which has been intentionally rotting their brains, in many cases since they were born.
At least I believe that to be the case.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Yet you have zero problem with the demonstrated fact that with a single exception every single elected POTUS and VP has been white and male.

Seems like a very very strong preference to me.

Look, you know I disagree with LP on damned near every topic like this, but I think you're stretching things here. It's entirely possible to be quite happy and open to non-white or non-male (or both) leaders while still opposing affirmative action or diversity objectives as the reason why we get non-white or non-male leaders.

Seriously, I would love to have a competent, powerful, intelligent woman in charge of the US. But I'd like her to get there on her own merits, not because some collection of guilt-ridden people decided that we had to have a female president to make some sort of social statement.

But why should we think that Kamala Harris, for example, did not get where she was on her own merits?

Realistically... because Biden literally said he was only going to consider black women for the role of VP. And because her record as AG and senator were pretty blase and even unattractive. And because there were several other female contenders who did considerably better than her in the run-up, but who were not considered because they were white.

If Biden hadn't actually declared his intention to have a black woman as VP, there'd have certainly been less scrutiny, and less questioning of her qualification and suitability. Then again, if Biden hadn't been set on having a black woman... he'd have likely selected someone that the public liked better, and who would have had a significantly better chance of beating Trump.

My honest thoughts? Lots of people don’t like her because she’s black and lots of people don’t like her because she’s a woman.

I also believe that Biden stepped in in 2020 to save us from Trump, correctly assessing that a white establishment make was needed to quell the bots of sexism and racism most of us do not like to admit even to ourselves. Maybe especially to ourselves.

I think that he believed that Trump was finished after the first disastrous term. I thought so. I think Biden had no intention of running for a second term until Trump stated he was running again. I think Biden, despite advancing age and possible failing health thought it was his duty to run a second time to defeat Trump.

I think a lot of people who don’t know as much as they think they do( looking at you celebrities) started to make noise about Biden not being well enough to serve a second term and began pressuring him to step aside—after announcing he would run again and into the summer, giving any other candidate a very short time to campaign. Perhaps he overestimated the American people and thought they’d learned their lessons: Trump the first time. I think it was a grave mistake.

Harris was never my favorite candidate. I like her even less now.

I’m ok with voting for candidates who are not my personal favorites. I vote for who I believe is the better candidate. I’ve only truly liked and wholeheartedly heartedly, without reservation, voted for two candidates who won POTUS. I mostly have voted for candidates who lost.

Also I haven't yet seen a reason she's "not qualified" for the job beyond the assumption she's a DEI hire. And, once again, Trump isn't qualified but he gets to be president somehow.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Well, look how hard it is to get employment with just one felony conviction. With 34, my man Donald got one of the few jobs possible for a criminal out to make good. Or cash.

 

[Politesse]

Who (other than @Emily Lake ) said that?

Emily Lake's anxious subconscious trying to assert itself through psychological displacement?

 

[pood]

So you won’t vote for a Dem, which is essentially a vote for MAGGOTry

"If you don't vote for Dems, you're a fascist nazi"?

Certainly!

It really is that simple. Pood understands very well that everyone who disagrees with her on anything would've volunteered at Auschwitz.

First, I am not a “her,” and second, I never said anything close to that and you know it. Meanwhile you whine about progressive rhetoric while deploying actual destructive rhetoric.

 

[Elixir]

Who (other than @Emily Lake ) said that?

Emily Lake's anxious subconscious trying to assert itself through psychological displacement?

Relentlessly so.

 

[Derec]

Realistically... because Biden literally said he was only going to consider black women for the role of VP. And because her record as AG and senator were pretty blase and even unattractive.

How so? Details about her failings, please. Historically, being an AG and a senator has been a sign of great success.

In Senate, she was one of the most left-wing Senators, and she continued that into her 2020 campaign, where she advocated for abolishing private health insurance and for banning fracking and offshore drilling.

And earlier, as AG, she pissed of some on the Left because they think that she was too aggressive as a prosecutor.

Then, too, Biden pledging to only consider black women for the role contained the unstated and very reasonable assumption that he was going to pick a QUALIFIED black woman. I see no evidence that he did not do that very thing.

Meeting minimum qualifications was not the issue. The issue is that when you restrict yourself to a small fraction of possible candidates, you are unlikely to find anybody close to optimal for the job.

And so, he picked Kamala Harris because the pond Biden was fishing in was small. And that had consequences when he dropped out too late to have primaries and we were stuck with a lackluster candidate. Which led to the present mess. But at least Biden did the owned the wypipo in 2020 or something.

 

[pood]

Then, too, Biden pledging to only consider black women for the role contained the unstated and very reasonable assumption that he was going to pick a QUALIFIED black woman. I see no evidence that he did not do that very thing.

Meeting minimum qualifications was not the issue. The issue is that when you restrict yourself to a small fraction of possible candidates, you are unlikely to find anybody close to optimal for the job.

Oh, nonsense. There are and were plenty of black women qualified for the job, including Harris.

Of course, the veep’s only real job is to wait for the president to die. Other than that, pretty much anybody could do it. FDR’s first veep, John Nance Garner, characterized the job as “a bucket of warm piss.”

 

[WAB]

Then, too, Biden pledging to only consider black women for the role contained the unstated and very reasonable assumption that he was going to pick a QUALIFIED black woman. I see no evidence that he did not do that very thing.

Meeting minimum qualifications was not the issue. The issue is that when you restrict yourself to a small fraction of possible candidates, you are unlikely to find anybody close to optimal for the job.

Oh, nonsense. There are and were plenty of black women qualified for the job, including Harris.

Of course, the veep’s only real job is to wait for the president to die. Other than that, pretty much anybody could do it. FDR’s first veep, John Nance Garner, characterized the job as “a bucket of warm piss.”

Well, they do need to actually BE president should the big cheese die.

 

[pood]

Then, too, Biden pledging to only consider black women for the role contained the unstated and very reasonable assumption that he was going to pick a QUALIFIED black woman. I see no evidence that he did not do that very thing.

Meeting minimum qualifications was not the issue. The issue is that when you restrict yourself to a small fraction of possible candidates, you are unlikely to find anybody close to optimal for the job.

Oh, nonsense. There are and were plenty of black women qualified for the job, including Harris.

Of course, the veep’s only real job is to wait for the president to die. Other than that, pretty much anybody could do it. FDR’s first veep, John Nance Garner, characterized the job as “a bucket of warm piss.”

Well, they do need to actually BE president should the big cheese die.

Yes, they need to be president, and I’m sure Harris could handle the job just fine. I wonder how many people are aware how many clueless and malevolent dipshits, all white men except for one, have occupied this regaled office?

 

[Derec]

Yep. Free speech is dying fast.

Camryn Booker wasn't expelled/arrested for free speech, but for trying to knock a fellow student's hat off his head.

But even the free speech part of her performance was distasteful. What would you be saying if a white student was yelling "your homie is dead" after, for example, George Floyd was killed in 2020?

Remember when back in 2019 Nicholas Sandmann was condemned in the media for standing around while being white?

 

[bilby]

The issue is that when you restrict yourself to a small fraction of possible candidates, you are unlikely to find anybody close to optimal for the job.

That "small fraction" is 21 million Americans. The odds are very low that none are close to optimal for the job.

The odds are roughly zero that none are capable of being above average in any reasonable ranking of past US Vice Presidents.

Dan Quayle was a VP for fuck's sake.

 

[bilby]

Camryn Booker wasn't expelled/arrested for free speech, but for trying to knock a fellow student's hat off his head.

OMG!! How many casualties were there??

If burning the US flag is free speech (and it is), then knocking somebody's hat off might well also be free speech.

Certainly it doesn't warrant an arrest.

 

[WAB]

Then, too, Biden pledging to only consider black women for the role contained the unstated and very reasonable assumption that he was going to pick a QUALIFIED black woman. I see no evidence that he did not do that very thing.

Meeting minimum qualifications was not the issue. The issue is that when you restrict yourself to a small fraction of possible candidates, you are unlikely to find anybody close to optimal for the job.

Oh, nonsense. There are and were plenty of black women qualified for the job, including Harris.

Of course, the veep’s only real job is to wait for the president to die. Other than that, pretty much anybody could do it. FDR’s first veep, John Nance Garner, characterized the job as “a bucket of warm piss.”

Well, they do need to actually BE president should the big cheese die.

Yes, they need to be president, and I’m sure Harris could handle the job just fine. I wonder how many people are aware how many clueless and malevolent dipshits, all white men except for one, have occupied this regaled office?

Yes, I agree. I was simply pointing out that the VP job is not nothing.

 

[Derec]

That "small fraction" is 21 million Americans. The odds are very low that none are close to optimal for the job.

No. The "small fraction" is the handful of elected officials and other prominent political figures from which running mates are picked. With apologies to William F. Buckley, running mates are not picked from phone books.

The odds are roughly zero that none are capable of being above average in any reasonable ranking of past US Vice Presidents.

And yet, this one wasn't. She certainly wasn't up to the task of taking over at the top of the ticket.

Dan Quayle was a VP for fuck's sake.

Dan "I can count to potatoe" Quayle was a miss, and would not have made a good presidential candidate had HW had to withdraw.
How does that justify restricting running mate selection by race and gender?

 

[Derec]

OMG!! How many casualties were there??

Do there have to be casualties?

If burning the US flag is free speech (and it is), then knocking somebody's hat off might well also be free speech.

You are allowed to burn a flag provided you own it and you do it in a safe manner.
You can't snatch somebody else's flag away and burn it, and you can't knock somebody else's hat off somebody else's head.

Certainly it doesn't warrant an arrest.

You say this as a lawyer and member of the Texas bar, or ...?

 

[pood]

As far as white male presidents go, we could start with the fact that 12 U.S. presidents owned slaves at some point in their lives, including eight (!) while in office. Almost all U.S. presidents were white supremacists, including Lincoln. Teddy Roosevelt was especially virulent, a real hater of native Americans.

Lincoln wasn’t much good with the natives, either. He once met a group of them who were educated and spoke fluent English. He spoke to them in baby talk, and lectured them that the earth was “a great big ball.”

James Buchanan, Lincoln’s immediate predecessor, was wholly incompetent, and did nothing while the south seceded. Lincoln’s immediate successor, Andrew Johnson, was a semi-literate drunkard who got bombed on inauguration day 1865 and had to be escorted from the platform. He was a virulent racist who opposed all post-war civil rights acts and eventually ended up getting impeached. He was saved from conviction by one vote in the Senate, which many historians today believe was the result of a bribe.

Corruption thrived under a number presidents, including Grant, Harding, Nixon and pre-eminently Trump. Nixon, of course, had to resign, and Trump was impeached twice.

Harding was totally in over his head and knew it. While he was unable to exercise his executive responsibilities, he was quite adept at employing his sexual proclivities. While the Secret Service stood guard, he impregnated his young secretary in a White House closet. He told aides he was glad he wasn’t a women, because if he were, he’d always be pregnant.

Harding publicly preached the virtues of prohibition while the White House was kept amply stocked with liquor which was consumed during poker games that Harding enjoyed with his pals instead of doing his job.

JFK and LBJ had a bit of a problem keeping their pants zipped, too. JFK told his aides that “if I don’t get a strange piece of ass every day, I get a headache.” He slept with an East German spy, among others.

Not to be outdone, LBJ boasted, “I’ve had more women by accident than Kennedy has had on purpose.” Between laying the ladies he blundered us into the disastrous Vietnam war because he was convinced he had to prove his street cred as an anti-Communist.

Most of the antebellum presidents except for the founders were dismal mediocrities when they weren’t downright vicious, like the genocidal Andrew Jackson.

Grover Cleveland also had a kid out of wedlock. Rutherford B. Hayes made a dirty deal to end Reconstruction in the south in exchange for being allowed to steal the presidency from Samuel J. Tilden. Gilded Age presidents were strike breakers and union busters.

Gerald Ford, LBJ said, was “so dumb he can’t walk and fart at the same time.” Ford’s strategy to tame the inflation he inherited as a result of the disastrous policy of LBJ to fund both his war and his Great Society programs without raising taxes was to issue WIN buttons: Whip Inflation Now.

We all know what a clueless fuckwit Dubya was. Woody Wilson got us into a war he vowed to stay out of when he wasn’t striving to erase civil rights gains made since Reconstruction.

I could go on. The point is that white men as president haven’t been all that impressive, taken as a whole. I’m betting black women like Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, Rosa Parks, Shirley Chisholm and Kamala Harris, to name just a handful, could have done a much better job.

 

[Derec]

Meeting minimum qualifications was not the issue. The issue is that when you restrict yourself to a small fraction of possible candidates, you are unlikely to find anybody close to optimal for the job.

Oh, nonsense. There are and were plenty of black women qualified for the job, including Harris.

Nonresponsive to my point. And it is also hardly justifying eliminating most people from consideration simply because of their skin color and plumbing.

Of course, the veep’s only real job is to wait for the president to die. Other than that, pretty much anybody could do it. FDR’s first veep, John Nance Garner, characterized the job as “a bucket of warm piss.”

Which is probably why in more modern day, Veeps are given tasks. Kamala was supposed to look into the border mess.

With Biden being so ancient, it was always more likely than for most Veeps that she would be needed to replace him. But when the time came, she did not measure up, and failed miserably.

I wonder how 2024 would have looked had Biden not restricted himself like he did.