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The Manhood Trap

Actually, I see I worded that post to Emily badly, to give the impression that I thought adoption was not a social choice. In retrospect I’m not sure what the “Is it?” was referring to. :unsure: But to clarify: I don’t think there is any evidential justification for the claim that evolution has wired us to not care about other children, and the fact that adoption is so widespread is evidence against the claim. But adoption is not because of evolution, either.
If I recall there are also cultures where raising others' children is the norm. Basic anthropology which could have easily been looked up by RVonse.
 

If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"
You should care about not wanting to get a bullet in your head.

When women get upset they may kill themselves but when men get upset other innocent people in society start dying too.
What the fuck are you talking about?

Do you expect me to be nice to men because an upset man might kill me, or is this only a problem for women?
Once again for clarity. Mostly for you and Jarhyn.

Its not what I want! Its just what is. The way biology and science believes we evolved (keeping in mind that science itself changes as more data becomes known).

Should we prefer a world where 100% of the female population are fully self actualized? At the expense where the male population is clearly in a period of extreme unrest? Present day incel males may not have reached the point of baboon screaming and throwing poop. But they are not doing well or happy either. And like it or not testosterone is the hormone that eventually leads otherwise normal unhappy people to extreme violence.

Maybe this is worth it or not. But the entire question can not be discussed until you guys come to terms with human reality. That our origins most likely evolved from the violent animal kingdom.
 
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Its not what I want! Its just what is. The way biology and science believes we evolved
You are very ignorant of biology, and seem confused about what science even is - science is not tne kind of thing that 'believes'; Indeed, belief is the exact opposite of science.

You are making a category error.

I am prepared to believe that it's not what YOU want; But it is what the propagandists who you (unwisely) trust want you to want.

I can (and indeed have, in detail, in this thread) assure you that there is nothing whatsoever in evolutionary theory that supports the claim that human men have evolved a dislike for raising the children of other men. Indeed, for the vast majority of human existence, such a trait would be counterproductive as a means of survival for the genes that encoded it.

And such a trait would require genes, or at the very least individual men, that somehow could detect the difference between their own offspring and those of (very closely related - people lived in small tribes) other men.

We know of many cases in which men (and women) have raised other people's children without ever so much as suspecting that that was what they had done (due to maternity hospital mix-ups which came to light many years later), and in all such cases, the 'parents' made no differentiation whatsoever between their biological children, and the stranger's child that had inadvertently been exchanged for one of those children.

Insofar as men do not want to knowingly raise another man's child in modern western society, that desire is entirely an ideosyncracy of that society, and has three-eighths of bugger all to do with evolution, regardless of what the ignorant fuckwits on right-wing websites heaviliy influenced by radical Christianity would like you to believe.

Their position boils down to "I have a vague notion, and I would like it to be the truth, so that I can build a policy platform on it. The liberals don't like that notion, and ridicule it as obviously false. So I shall employ the appeal to nature fallacy, and claim that it's not my own stupid notion, but rather a biological and evolutionary fact. Liberals love evolution, and so they will have no comeback!"

This is very effective, amongst audiences that know nothing at all about evolution or biology - ie most American politicians and media stars.
 
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If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"
You should care about not wanting to get a bullet in your head.

When women get upset they may kill themselves but when men get upset other innocent people in society start dying too.
What the fuck are you talking about?

Do you expect me to be nice to men because an upset man might kill me, or is this only a problem for women?
Once again for clarity. Mostly for you and Jarhyn.

Its not what I want! Its just what is. The way biology and science believes we evolved (keeping in mind that science itself changes as more data becomes known).

Should we prefer a world where 100% of the female population are fully self actualized? At the expense where the male population is clearly in a period of extreme unrest? Present day incel males may not have reached the point of baboon screaming and throwing poop. But they are not doing well or happy either. And like it or not testosterone is the hormone that eventually leads otherwise normal unhappy people to extreme violence.

Maybe this is worth it or not. But the entire question can not be discussed until you guys come to terms with human reality. That our origins most likely evolved from the violent animal kingdom.
Who are the "you guys" in your sentence above? Women?
 
Maybe this is worth it or not. But the entire question can not be discussed until you guys come to terms with human reality. That our origins most likely evolved from the violent animal kingdom.
The animal kingdom isn't very violent.

Predators are violent to their prey, but don't take needless risks.

Competition for mates can be violent, but more often is performative rather than injurious.

In both cases, avoiding the risk of injury to oneself is of far greater importance than the inflicting of injury on the other.

The guiding principle for violent interactions between animals is to live to fight another day.

There's not much point in getting a meal, if you sustain an injury that will become septic and kill you in a week or two; And while predation is obviously both common and violent, it's very rare within a species.

Even when competing to mate, a single opportunity taken at the cost of your life is usually a worse strategy than many missed opportunities that allow for future attempts - the exception being in animals such as spiders and insects, for whom a single copulation can result in hundreds or even thousands of offspring, and so is (from a genetic perspective) worth dying for.

Humans are much more likely to die in violent within-species encounters than other animals, not because we are more inclined to initiate violent encounters, but because we are far more effective at killing now than we were in our recent evolutionary history.

We back down too little and too late, because we evolved in and for a world where our enemies could inflict bruises, but live in one where they can inflict gunshot or knife wounds.

These observations suggest tbat we should see a slow decline in violence, as we adapt to our new, more deadly, environment. And indeed, that is what we can see - violence has been declining (albeit slowly) for the last few thousand years. It is unlikely that much of that decline is evolutionary, though; Cultural norms, rules and expectations change much faster than gene-pools.

That is the fact that really strikes to the heart of your overarching concept that "what we evolved to do" is somehow a force we should not attempt to overcome. The very thing that makes humans so successful is our ability to overcome our base instincts.

The appeal to nature is not only a fallacy; It is an abdication of our humanity. Even if it were true (it's not) that humans evolved to be misogynistic, to be monogamous, to hate other men's children, and to vote Republican, then we would still have not just the ability, but the duty, to use our intellect to override those impulses.
 
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If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"
You should care about not wanting to get a bullet in your head.

When women get upset they may kill themselves but when men get upset other innocent people in society start dying too.
What the fuck are you talking about?

Do you expect me to be nice to men because an upset man might kill me, or is this only a problem for women?
Once again for clarity. Mostly for you and Jarhyn.

Its not what I want! Its just what is. The way biology and science believes we evolved (keeping in mind that science itself changes as more data becomes known).

Should we prefer a world where 100% of the female population are fully self actualized? At the expense where the male population is clearly in a period of extreme unrest? Present day incel males may not have reached the point of baboon screaming and throwing poop. But they are not doing well or happy either. And like it or not testosterone is the hormone that eventually leads otherwise normal unhappy people to extreme violence.

Maybe this is worth it or not. But the entire question can not be discussed until you guys come to terms with human reality. That our origins most likely evolved from the violent animal kingdom.
Incels are screaming and throwing poop. It's what incels do to compensate for low testosterone. A little more T and they could take a shower put on a clean shirt, then actually speak to a woman.

I'm not stranger to violence, having judicious meted out plenty in the past. Human society is based on cooperation, not violence. We reserve our violence for other groups, not the members of our group. The idea that the leader of the group is the one who can kick everyone else's ass is an incel fantasy. Everyone has to sleep sometime. A big rock to a sleeping head is an easy response to ass kicking.
 
Actually, I see I worded that post to Emily badly, to give the impression that I thought adoption was not a social choice. In retrospect I’m not sure what the “Is it?” was referring to. :unsure: But to clarify: I don’t think there is any evidential justification for the claim that evolution has wired us to not care about other children, and the fact that adoption is so widespread is evidence against the claim. But adoption is not because of evolution, either.
If I recall there are also cultures where raising others' children is the norm. Basic anthropology which could have easily been looked up by RVonse.
Generally speaking, the children one is raising is "my child", the children we are raising are "our children". It's just that "me" might be an adoptive parent, the mother's brother, all of the women in a matrilineal clan, all if the adults in the same age set, or many other interesting situations. In principle though you are quite correct.

In Mosuo culture, biological fatherhood used to be tracked barely at all, you were raised without distinction by the various men of your mother's house, mostly uncles, brothers, and cousins. This has changed quite a bit under communist rule, though.
 
Maybe this is worth it or not. But the entire question can not be discussed until you guys come to terms with human reality. That our origins most likely evolved from the violent animal kingdom.
The animal kingdom isn't very violent.

Predators are violent to their prey, but don't take needless risks.

Competition for mates can be violent, but more often is performative rather than injurious.

In both cases, avoiding the risk of injury to oneself is of far greater importance than the inflicting of injury on the other.

The guiding principle for violent interactions between animals is to live to fight another day.

There's not much point in getting a meal, if you sustain an injury that will become septic and kill you in a week or two; And while predation is obviously both common and violent, it's very rare within a species.

Even when competing to mate, a single opportunity taken at the cost of your life is usually a worse strategy than many missed opportunities that allow for future attempts - the exception being in animals such as spiders and insects, for whom a single copulation can result in hundreds or even thousands of offspring, and so is (from a genetic perspective) worth dying for.

Humans are much more likely to die in violent within-species encounters than other animals, not because we are more inclined to initiate violent encounters, but because we are far more effective at killing now than we were in our recent evolutionary history.

We back down too little and too late, because we evolved in and for a world where our enemies could inflict bruises, but live in one where they can inflict gunshot or knife wounds.

These observations suggest tbat we should see a slow decline in violence, as we adapt to our new, more deadly, environment. And indeed, that is what we can see - violence has been declining (albeit slowly) for the last few thousand years. It is unlikely that much of that decline is evolutionary, though; Cultural norms, rules and expectations change much faster than gene-pools.

That is the fact that really strikes to the heart of your overarching concept that "what we evolved to do" is somehow a force we should not attempt to overcome. The very thing that makes humans so successful is our ability to overcome our base instincts.

The appeal to nature is not only a fallacy; It is an abdication of our humanity. Even if it were true (it's not) that humans evolved to be misogynistic, to be monogamous, to hate other men's children, and to vote Republican, then we would still have not just the ability, but the duty, to use our intellect to override those impulses.
And I might add, a strong understanding of evolutionary biology, selection pressure, and natural efficiencies would indicate that once social pressures adapt behavior to the reality of a more deadly potential with less violent behavior is that our biological evolution will tend towards our more effective tendencies: there has been a many-billions of years evolution towards the capability to do what you describe and adapt quickly in a behavioral sense to our own physical capabilities.

Arguably, this is why our brains are made of physically restructuring neurons and not of some more static chemical process.
 
If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"
I suggest that if people want to solve their problems, the necessary first step would be to identify the problem and the outcome they are trying to effect.
Same applies to "men". Who is or is not 'a man' is merely descriptive, not relevant to problem solving.
 
Newsom is such a toady
Definitions from Oxford Languages
toad·y
/ˈtōdē/
noun
noun: toady; plural noun: toadies
  1. a person who obsequiously to someone important.
You know, Swiz, like Trump behaves around Putin.
Who do you imagine Newscum's boss to be?
Must be a pretty scary person to compel a shoo in contender for President '28 to act like such a *cringe* "insufferable prick", don't you think?
I mean, Americans would never vote for a cringy insufferable prick, right?

Anyhow, it's QED that you don't mind voting for toadies.
 
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If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"
I suggest that if people want to solve their problems, the necessary first step would be to identify the problem and the outcome they are trying to effect.
Same applies to "men". Who is or is not 'a man' is merely descriptive, not relevant to problem solving.
But it is, because the problem is the idea that "men" ought matter as "men" rather than "human beings". It's exactly that cultural loading that we all keep banging on about being the root of the problem.

Solving that means looking deeply as if at a word until its nature as a nonsense token is visible.
 
Human penises ( and any other penis I am aware of) have no vacuum function to remove the sperm of other men/males.
Scraping, not suction. Look where the head joins the shaft--the forward facing side is a low angle, the rear-facing side is a very high angle. The low angle does not push as well as the high angle scrapes, the overall effect is any semen already present will tend to be pulled out.
That definitely is not a thing. Again, Im very sorry for the paucity of good information about sex, sexuality and human reproduction that seems to have come your way.
Your unwillingness to accept reality doesn't make it go away.

I happened to know that one because it's evidence that we did not evolve as a sexually exclusive species.

And rather disgusted that you seem to believe that women have hoards of men lining up, literally, to have sex with them and that you seem to believe last dick in is the winner.
And you're not interpreting it right. First is probably the winner, but scraping out semen reduces the handicap of not being first.
 
If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"
I suggest that if people want to solve their problems, the necessary first step would be to identify the problem and the outcome they are trying to effect.
Same applies to "men". Who is or is not 'a man' is merely descriptive, not relevant to problem solving.
But it is, because the problem is the idea that "men" ought matter as "men" rather than "human beings". It's exactly that cultural loading that we all keep banging on about being the root of the problem.

Solving that means looking deeply as if at a word until its nature as a nonsense token is visible.
Yeah or you could just obviate it by leaving it out altogether.
🤷‍♀️
 
Human penises ( and any other penis I am aware of) have no vacuum function to remove the sperm of other men/males.
Scraping, not suction. Look where the head joins the shaft--the forward facing side is a low angle, the rear-facing side is a very high angle. The low angle does not push as well as the high angle scrapes, the overall effect is any semen already present will tend to be pulled out.
That definitely is not a thing. Again, Im very sorry for the paucity of good information about sex, sexuality and human reproduction that seems to have come your way.
Your unwillingness to accept reality doesn't make it go away.

I happened to know that one because it's evidence that we did not evolve as a sexually exclusive species.

And rather disgusted that you seem to believe that women have hoards of men lining up, literally, to have sex with them and that you seem to believe last dick in is the winner.
And you're not interpreting it right. First is probably the winner, but scraping out semen reduces the handicap of not being first.
Ohmyfuckinggod: You seem to believe that women regularly line guys up and let them ejaculate, one after another.

Honestly, Loren. That’s just ignorant.
 

If men want to solve their problems, maybe they could start by asking "what even is a 'man' and why do I even care?!?"
You should care about not wanting to get a bullet in your head.

When women get upset they may kill themselves but when men get upset other innocent people in society start dying too.
What the fuck are you talking about?

Do you expect me to be nice to men because an upset man might kill me, or is this only a problem for women?
Once again for clarity. Mostly for you and Jarhyn.

Its not what I want! Its just what is. The way biology and science believes we evolved (keeping in mind that science itself changes as more data becomes known).

Should we prefer a world where 100% of the female population are fully self actualized? At the expense where the male population is clearly in a period of extreme unrest? Present day incel males may not have reached the point of baboon screaming and throwing poop. But they are not doing well or happy either. And like it or not testosterone is the hormone that eventually leads otherwise normal unhappy people to extreme violence.

Maybe this is worth it or not. But the entire question can not be discussed until you guys come to terms with human reality. That our origins most likely evolved from the violent animal kingdom.
I don't see what solution you are proposing here, you're just repeating the hate you've been taught.

Realistically, not every person is going to find a partner. That's been the reality for the entirety of human existence. In ancient times I suspect it conferred a survival advantage as men are more likely to be killed, thus having spares can be useful for the tribe. No matter what yardstick you use some men aren't going to make the cut. Different yardsticks can change which men, but they can't avoid the fundamental problem that conception skews slightly male.

Modern society has removed the necessity of a woman binding herself to a man so the problem has gotten somewhat bigger as some do not want to do so and others choose to be alone vs pairing up with trash. But neither of these justify forcing women into what amounts to sexual slavery.
 
Maybe this is worth it or not. But the entire question can not be discussed until you guys come to terms with human reality. That our origins most likely evolved from the violent animal kingdom.
The animal kingdom isn't very violent.

Predators are violent to their prey, but don't take needless risks.

Competition for mates can be violent, but more often is performative rather than injurious.

In both cases, avoiding the risk of injury to oneself is of far greater importance than the inflicting of injury on the other.
Depends--in harem species generally the only path to passing on your genes is to displace the dominant male and that can be very injurious. But note the flip side--the dominant male often does not live very long after attaining dominance.
 
Incels are screaming and throwing poop. It's what incels do to compensate for low testosterone. A little more T and they could take a shower put on a clean shirt, then actually speak to a woman.
Incel isn't about low T.
I'm not stranger to violence, having judicious meted out plenty in the past. Human society is based on cooperation, not violence. We reserve our violence for other groups, not the members of our group. The idea that the leader of the group is the one who can kick everyone else's ass is an incel fantasy. Everyone has to sleep sometime. A big rock to a sleeping head is an easy response to ass kicking.
Agreed.
 
And you're not interpreting it right. First is probably the winner, but scraping out semen reduces the handicap of not being first.
Ohmyfuckinggod: You seem to believe that women regularly line guys up and let them ejaculate, one after another.

Honestly, Loren. That’s just ignorant.
You aren't being willing to accept it because it goes against your ideas, you aren't addressing the reality.
 
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