Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Ferguson

[Underseer]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/03/politics/justice-report-ferguson-discrimination/index.html

Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Ferguson

Washington (CNN)A Justice Department civil rights investigation has concluded that the Ferguson Police Department and the city's municipal court engaged in a "pattern and practice" of discrimination against African Americans, targeting them disproportionately for traffic stops, use of force, and jail sentences, according to a U.S. law enforcement official briefed on the investigation.

The probe is the result of an investigation ordered by Attorney General Eric Holder after the police shooting that killed Michael Brown last summer.

Among the findings, reviewed by CNN: from 2012 to 2014, 85% of people subject to vehicle stops by Ferguson police were African American; 90% of those who received citations were black; and 93% of people arrested were black. This while 67% of the Ferguson population is black.

In 88% of the cases in which the Ferguson police reported using force, it was against African Americans. During the period 2012-2014 black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.

Simply by pointing out that there is racial injustice against minorities in our justice system, you are persecuting whites.

Help! I'm being oppressed by the PC Police! They're taking away my rights! Help! Oh, won't someone think of the white people? [/conservolibertarian]

 

[Derec]

Let it go George... he's a Serial Jaywalker.

I can see a judge dismissing a jaywalking case and forgiving a ticket if the person hasn't done it before.

 

[Rhea]

I would start by asking myself how many young black men hanging out is too many.

Do you see a difference between hanging out and loitering?

Speaking of Ferguson and stopping/ticketing people, what about jaywalking? That is what Michael Brown and his friend were doing when Wilson first encountered them. Just yesterday, as I was driving past Chamblee High School a group of black teens crossed the road right in front of me! And they were also moving deliberately slowly, taking their time. Now, if a cop had witnessed this, don't you think that they would have deserved a ticket? Or would that have drawn the ire of the Holder DOJ?

So, interestingly, this happens to me EVERY SINGLE DAY. I live in a rural area so we have our share of folks walking along the road and cars stopping in the middle of the road to chat, etc. But at the end of my road, there's a bus stop. And the kids and their parents are achingly stupid about car traffic. They walk in the road. Slowly. Practically daring you to try to get into an argument about who has the "right" to the road. If you say somethign to them, they give you the finger. The parents park stupidly at the intersection and slowly turn their cars around so you have to stop. It's insane. It's stupid and dangerous. I've called the bus company and said, "hey, look, just pull the bus forward 20 feet so that when you open the door they are already on the right side of the road - it'll help." No go. They won't do it. I've called the cops. "Seriously, just come by and help these people understand how dangerous it is to block the intersection where people are entering and leaving a 55mph county highway." Nope, they won't do it. They won't come, they won't talk, they won't nothing.

The kids in the middle of the road and their parents are 100% white. There is one black family, but the kids in that family walk safely on the correct side of the road.

So a cop has essentially "witnessed this" and no, they didn't think they even deserved a little talk about road safety, let alone a ticket.

 

[bleubird]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_352c3f26-2208-11e0-abb3-00127992bc8b.html
Also,there was a story about this on NPR.
Seems this is how they help fund the small cities.You get a lot of lower income blacks that get trapped in the system.

 

[Horatio Parker]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_352c3f26-2208-11e0-abb3-00127992bc8b.html
Also,there was a story about this on NPR.
Seems this is how they help fund the small cities.You get a lot of lower income blacks that get trapped in the system.

Little wonder that the city would objectify it's darker citizens.

 

[bigfield]

The original thread ("Michael Brown Shooting and Aftermath" but should have been called "Dying for Swisher Sweets")was 90+ pages! There is also a possibility that I remember it from a different forum. In any case, I remember it said.

In other words, you cannot document that anyone from this board actually said what you claim, but you are going to accuse us of it anyway as some sort of rebuttal in this thread.

No.

You may retract your undocumented accusation, because I really don't care what you may have read (or imagined) on some other board.

Derec remembers wrong.

Here it is:

Finally, telling someone to not be where they are can very much be bullying and harassment, particularly when there's a robbery suspect they could be on the lookout for actively. The culture of poor neighborhoods is to use streets in a way that the denizens of them find most functional. It's actually pretty racist that jaywalking statutes even are imposed on communities with such different cultural values. You make a bi stink about state rights, because ostensibly different states have different values and different ways of life. Well what about neighborhood rights?

No mention of 'African American cultural identity' or some such. The argument applies just as well to working-class suburbs in Australia -- such as the one I grew up in -- as it does to American neighbourhoods. Many busy city centres also have a culture of allowing pedestrians right of way.

 

[jladam]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/04/ferguson-police-report_n_6800440.html

DOJ investigators said that while several Ferguson officials blamed residents for not taking responsibility for their actions or dealing with outstanding warrants, they themselves routinely dismissed parking tickets for their friends, colleagues and acquaintances.

Ah, yes. Personal responsibility for thee but not me.

 

[Derec]

In other words, you cannot document that anyone from this board actually said what you claim, but you are going to accuse us of it anyway as some sort of rebuttal in this thread.

No.

You may retract your undocumented accusation, because I really don't care what you may have read (or imagined) on some other board.

Derec remembers wrong.

Here it is:

Finally, telling someone to not be where they are can very much be bullying and harassment, particularly when there's a robbery suspect they could be on the lookout for actively. The culture of poor neighborhoods is to use streets in a way that the denizens of them find most functional. It's actually pretty racist that jaywalking statutes even are imposed on communities with such different cultural values. You make a bi stink about state rights, because ostensibly different states have different values and different ways of life. Well what about neighborhood rights?

No mention of 'African American cultural identity' or some such. The argument applies just as well to working-class suburbs in Australia -- such as the one I grew up in -- as it does to American neighbourhoods. Many busy city centres also have a culture of allowing pedestrians right of way.

Not remembering that wrong after all. Jarhyn did day that enforcing jaywalking laws in those neighborhoods was "actually pretty racist". Why didn't he/she say "classist" if there was no intention to invoke black culture?
Also the sidewalk issue is pretty moot as Michael Brown's neighborhood had sidewalks and even a lack of sidewalks doesn't excuse walking down the middle of the street, or crossing the street in an unsafe manner. There are many roads in metro Atlanta that do not have sidewalks and pedestrians can use the verge (actually you can often see a beaten footpath devoid of grass along such roads) or if they have to use the roadway they can walk on the side of it, not down the middle.

 

[ronburgundy]

something something stats, something something genetically dumber, something something Holder . . . OBAMA!

So, the OP and the report is based upon drawing inferences from stats, which you have no objection to. But you a priori declare all counter-arguments that refer to stats as invalid on the grounds that you cleverly predicted someone might so foolish as to want to focus on the quality of the evidence the report relies upon.

I realize that rational analysis of actual data might just sound to you like "something something stats", but your own inability to understand evidence-based reasoning is not grounds to dismiss such reasoning, it is grounds to dismiss your own opinion on the matter.

 

[ksen]

tl;dr

 

[Derec]

Interesting. Darren Wilson Is Cleared of Rights Violations in Ferguson Shooting

Among the witnesses who told investigators that they had been nervous about corroborating Mr. Wilson’s account was a 31-year-old black woman who had been standing on her brother’s balcony at the time of the shooting. Her initial account to investigators, in which she said that she saw Mr. Wilson fire shots into Mr. Brown’s back as he lay dead on the street, was inconsistent with the autopsy findings.
When federal investigators challenged her, she admitted lying, explained to the F.B.I. that “you’ve gotta live the life to know it,” and said she had been afraid to contradict stories that Mr. Brown had been trying to surrender.
She then “admitted that she saw Mr. Brown running toward Mr. Wilson, prompting the police officer to yell ‘freeze,’ ” the report stated. It added that the woman said that “it appeared to her that Wilson’s life was in danger.” But when local authorities later tried to serve this witness a subpoena to appear before the grand jury, the report said, “she blockaded her door with a couch.”

 

[scombrid]

So, interestingly, this happens to me EVERY SINGLE DAY. I live in a rural area so we have our share of folks walking along the road and cars stopping in the middle of the road to chat, etc. But at the end of my road, there's a bus stop. And the kids and their parents are achingly stupid about car traffic. They walk in the road. Slowly. Practically daring you to try to get into an argument about who has the "right" to the road. If you say somethign to them, they give you the finger. The parents park stupidly at the intersection and slowly turn their cars around so you have to stop. It's insane. It's stupid and dangerous. I've called the bus company and said, "hey, look, just pull the bus forward 20 feet so that when you open the door they are already on the right side of the road - it'll help." No go. They won't do it. I've called the cops. "Seriously, just come by and help these people understand how dangerous it is to block the intersection where people are entering and leaving a 55mph county highway." Nope, they won't do it. They won't come, they won't talk, they won't nothing.

But those are good people so they should be left alone

I used to see the same behavior along "Grand Avenue" when I used to live up in another town. Semi-rural road through a bedroom community of big houses and 2 acre lots. The parents drove the kids out to the bus stop and then did a great job of obstructing traffic by pulling right into or crossing the road without looking after the bus was gone. But they were driving high end SUVs and pickup trucks so they were cool. We should bow to them. Let a black person do that down in the "Spring Hill" neighborhood and that person will probably get tazed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Interesting. Darren Wilson Is Cleared of Rights Violations in Ferguson Shooting

Among the witnesses who told investigators that they had been nervous about corroborating Mr. Wilson’s account was a 31-year-old black woman who had been standing on her brother’s balcony at the time of the shooting. Her initial account to investigators, in which she said that she saw Mr. Wilson fire shots into Mr. Brown’s back as he lay dead on the street, was inconsistent with the autopsy findings.
When federal investigators challenged her, she admitted lying, explained to the F.B.I. that “you’ve gotta live the life to know it,” and said she had been afraid to contradict stories that Mr. Brown had been trying to surrender.
She then “admitted that she saw Mr. Brown running toward Mr. Wilson, prompting the police officer to yell ‘freeze,’ ” the report stated. It added that the woman said that “it appeared to her that Wilson’s life was in danger.” But when local authorities later tried to serve this witness a subpoena to appear before the grand jury, the report said, “she blockaded her door with a couch.”

And Brown will never live to jaywalk again... making Ferguson just a little more safe for everyone.

 

[scombrid]

During the period 2012-2014 black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.

Eight pages in, this needs repeating. There's no apologizing away a statistic like that.

The cops may see every black in a way similar to how Derec views Michael Brown and are treating them with the prejudice that such a view would certainly engender. But stats like this indicate that a lot of blacks are being unfairly serched, ruffed up, jailed, etc... How should a law abiding black person feel in such an environment?

 

[Sarpedon]

Have we heard Derec's excuse for the police dog biting statistic? Do dogs just find blacks tastier than whites?

 

[Toni]

I would start by asking myself how many young black men hanging out is too many.

Do you see a difference between hanging out and loitering?

Speaking of Ferguson and stopping/ticketing people, what about jaywalking? That is what Michael Brown and his friend were doing when Wilson first encountered them. Just yesterday, as I was driving past Chamblee High School a group of black teens crossed the road right in front of me! And they were also moving deliberately slowly, taking their time. Now, if a cop had witnessed this, don't you think that they would have deserved a ticket? Or would that have drawn the ire of the Holder DOJ?

What is the significance of the race of the teens?

 

[ronburgundy]

During the period 2012-2014 black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.

Eight pages in, this needs repeating. There's no apologizing away a statistic like that.

The emails are direct evidence of racism among some Ferguson cops. But the stat you take as a smoking gun doesn't add much evidence at all without better analyses showing that the many relevant factors known to covary with race cannot account for the disparity.

There is no rationally interpreting a purely correlational stat like that to mean anything without a whole lot more data showing that the blacks and whites stopped were similar in the many other respects relevant to the probability of being searched.
The leap to the "therefore racism" conclusion requires the assumption that found contraband is the sole non-race factor that influences searches. Not only is this not true, but found contraband doesn't directly influence searches at all, but rather is the effect of them. Cops might factor prior prob of finding something into a current situation, but to the extent that found contraband is relevant, the particular type of contraband is more relevant. Most contraband is of the "half joint in ashtray" sort that cops don't care that much about, and that is the sort of which whites had more of. IIRC, from the prior report, blacks were more likely to have illegal weapons and evidence of drug trafficking.

Some of the non-race things that influence whether a driver is searched are: prior arrests, outstanding warrants, type of traffic violation that triggered the stop, time of day, amount of reported crime in the area, age and number of passengers, having valid license and registration, compliance with officer requests, insulting the officers, and many other behaviors that either raise suspicions or agitate the officers (some legit and some not).

Given national crime stats, and SES differences it would be nothing short of a miracle if the white and black persons stopped did not differ on many of these factors, each of which would impact the probability of search, even by a competent non-racist and/or black officer. Thus, without evidence to rule these many factors out, the cited stat is uninterpretable.

In fact, when the same stat was raised during the heat (literal and figurative) of the Ferguson protests, it was also pointed out to the few who cared about valid evidence, that the blacks who were stopped were much more likely to have outstanding warrants that actually required a search and arrest, and that if you exclude those warrant-based searches, blacks were less likely to be searched.

 

[scombrid]

The leap to the "therefore racism" conclusion requires the assumption that found contraband is the sole non-race factor that influences searches.

The point of the search is to find contraband. The relavant fact is that the police are more likely to search a black person even though the search is less likely to find anything.

Cops might factor prior prob of finding something into a current situation,

But the prior prob of finding something is lower for the group that is searched at a higher rate.

but to the extent that found contraband is relevant, the particular type of contraband is more relevant. Most contraband is of the "half joint in ashtray" sort that cops don't care that much about, and that is the sort of which whites had more of. IIRC, from the prior report, blacks were more likely to have illegal weapons and evidence of drug trafficking.

If your recollection is true, does that justify searching blacks at nearly double the rate of whites even though the probably of finding something illegal is 26% less? Is this criterion not race-based? i.e. Cops believe that they have reasonable suspicion to search blacks because they percieve that the black that is stopped is more likely to have a weapon even if the end result is that a lot of innocent blacks are needlessly bothered/harrassed? If I was a law abiding black person I'd tend to hate the knuckleheads that happen to share my pigment but I'd also hate the cops that treat me like those knuckleheads. You can see how the cops behavior might create some animosity in such a situation.

 

[scombrid]

The leap to the "therefore racism" conclusion requires the assumption that found contraband is the sole non-race factor that influences searches.

The point of the search is to find contraband. The relavant fact is that the police are more likely to search a black person even though the search is less likely to find anything.

Cops might factor prior prob of finding something into a current situation,

But the prior prob of finding something is lower for the group that is searched at a higher rate.

but to the extent that found contraband is relevant, the particular type of contraband is more relevant. Most contraband is of the "half joint in ashtray" sort that cops don't care that much about, and that is the sort of which whites had more of. IIRC, from the prior report, blacks were more likely to have illegal weapons and evidence of drug trafficking.

If your recollection is true, does that justify searching blacks at nearly double the rate of whites even though the probably of finding something illegal is 26% less? Is this criterion not race-based? i.e. Cops believe that they have reasonable suspicion to search blacks because they percieve that the black that is stopped is more likely to have a weapon even if the end result is that a lot of innocent blacks are needlessly bothered/harrassed? If I was a law abiding black person I'd tend to hate the knuckleheads that happen to share my pigment but I'd also hate the cops that treat me like those knuckleheads. You can see how the cops behavior might create some animosity in such a situation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Eight pages in, this needs repeating. There's no apologizing away a statistic like that.

The emails are direct evidence of racism among some Ferguson cops. But the stat you take as a smoking gun doesn't add much evidence at all without better analyses showing that the many relevant factors known to covary with race cannot account for the disparity.

OMG! Someone right the DoJ an email stat! They may not realize that it doesn't have to be racism!

It seems odd that those that want to defend the Ferguson police from charges of racism, also at the exact same time want to leap at the DoJ and claim they are the ones making this about race.