Yet another war, this time with Iran

[Harry Bosch]

Not that it is important but you keep confusing Yuschenko with Yanukovych.
They both start with Y in english translition but it's really a diffierennt vowel sound.
Yuschenko was the first real nazi president of Ukraine.

Sorry, I stand corrected.

Please don’t buy Barbos BS. Yuschenko is not a Nazi. He’s a pro western Ukrainian who wants freedom from Russian oppression. His father was a prisoner at Auschwitz for gods sake. Russians today believe that anyone who opposes Russian supremacy and imperialism is a Nazi.

 

[barbos]

Not that it is important but you keep confusing Yuschenko with Yanukovych.
They both start with Y in english translition but it's really a diffierennt vowel sound.
Yuschenko was the first real nazi president of Ukraine.

Sorry, I stand corrected.

Please don’t buy Barbos BS. Yuschenko is not a Nazi. He’s a pro western Ukrainian who wants freedom from Russian oppression. His father was a prisoner at Auschwitz for gods sake. Russians today believe that anyone who opposes Russian supremacy and imperialism is a Nazi.

Anyone who awards "Hero of Ukraine" to a WW2 nazi is by definition a nazi. Yuschenko is a fucking nazi.
His father who was a Red Army officer and fought nazis would have been disgusted with his nazi son.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We've been mentioning it for quite a while, you keep sticking your head in the sand. Remember how the Sudan thread quickly died out? That's part of the genocide I'm referring to. Most of sub-Saharan Africa has Iranian-backed genocides going on. Millions dead.

Your mentioning something doesn’t make it true. Especially when you don’t provide sources. Whenever I read about the violence in that region, the UAE is mentioned and no mention if Iran. Without substantion, your claims are nit credible.

They give you plausible deniability, you keep falling for it. What part of puppetmaster do you not understand??

Israel has been claiming for over 20 years that Iran is close to making a nuclear weapon. And Israel and the US claimed to gave destroyed Iran’s nuclear capabilities.

So I really have no idea what you mean.

If you have no idea what I mean you're being willfully blind.

And the Iranian nuclear program has been an exercise in plausible deniability for a long time.

Making a bomb is fairly easy. Making weapons grade fissionables to put in the bomb is not easy. Thus we are measuring their nuclear program by the production of the material to make the bomb. But Iran can "truthfully" say they aren't working on a bomb because they're not actually producing the hardware. But the reality is you only make weapons grade uranium for a bomb or for cases where size is really important (ships, in the old days Russia launched some satellites with small reactors.) Iran has no legitimate use for weapons grade material, thus high level enrichment is a bomb program.

And what we destroyed was their enrichment plant. The chance we actually got the bomb material is about 0%. And while you're trying to be in denial about their bomb program--they had absolutely no legitimate reason to bury their enrichment plant like that. Nobody would have wanted to bomb a plant that was merely producing reactor grade material. Thus the fact that they hardened it is extremely telling.

Essentially you are asserting both Israel and the USA are lying. Ok. But you take their reporting as to Iran is doing as valid.

Why should I doubt what Iran has confirmed? They don't deny they are enriching, they just pretend it's for peaceful use--but they're making stuff that is only used for bombs and for cases where size is really important. You simply want power, it's much cheaper to build an ordinary reactor that runs on mildly enriched material. You'll spend an awful lot more enriching to high levels than you'll save on a smaller reactor. They aren't naming any intended peaceful use.

Sounds more like cherry picking.

BTW, every attack by Israel or the US giveds the Iranian hardliners more legitimate readon to want a nuclear bomb.

They have the same reason as always--fear of retaliation if their terrorists score big enough. Same as we took down Afghanistan when their terrorists hit the WTC.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No one mentions all the Arab "prisoners" being held without charge in Israel either. Kids accused of infractions such as throwing rocks. How are they 'political prisoners' while the stealing of lands by Israeli settlement expansion is just a-ok!

Those captured on the battlefield do not normally get trials anywhere.

And "kids throwing rocks" is very much downplaying it. This is older kids throwing heavy rocks to provide cover for shooters to sneak around. Legally, combatants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The absolute truth is that various peoples have long been targeted for violence based solely upon the fact that they belong to certain groups. Jews have been persecuted for centuries. Currently they seem in favor with the Trump and right wing conservative evangelicals, some of whom long for the end of days and who would be horrified if a Jewish family moved next door. Certainly Hamas bears much of the blame for the strikes on Israel and for refusing to release hostages, thereby prolonging the conflict and the suffering of their own people to ‘expose’ Israel as horrible and criminal. There is far too much blame to assign to be shy about healing it on the heads of all parties involved.

And you're falling for it.

You blame Hamas, but you figure there;s enough blame to go around and blame Israel, also, especially in blindly accepting any claims from Hamas about supposed Israeli actions. But you have no power over Hamas, whereas world opinion has power over Israel. Thus you actually end up doing Hamas' bidding.

Certainly these days, it is Iran who is helping continue the conflict but it’s been various Arab states for nearly 100 years. And why?

Because it is profitable and allows heads of state who are struggling to stay in power and accrue wealth in the face of genuine , serious issues facing their peoples who struggle to modernize while holding on to their culture, traditions and way of life to blame other Satans rather than the fact that these are enormous problems for every society and take a lot of time and effort and resources, not to mention humility to begin to address.

The eternal war with EastAsia is part of it, but Iran is also using it to gain covert control.

And note that this in no way exonerates Iran.

Racism exists because it allows us to quickly identify an enemy or an ‘other’ upon whom to place blame for whatever we are struggling with. It allows us to justify treating other human beings as less than, as sub human, as livestock because then their wants and needs and thoughts do not matter. What matters is only their utility and a large part of that utility is in serving as scape goat and beast of burden.

Underwear gnome logic.

You are not establishing that "Palestinian" is a race, you are not refuting the point that they are a population subjected to a lifetime of indoctrination in hate.

They are victims--but it's those using them as cannon fodder that are the true victimizers. You're blaming the cannons when the cannon fodder dies.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Looking like Israel wasn't certain they could manage the Iranian response if they acted alone. And then let the US do the heavy lifting. And after all this... we gained what...?

We gained the absence of mushroom clouds.

Same reason we've been helping them for decades.

If Israel goes under they're going to take their attackers with them. Thus it is in our interest to ensure they don't go under.

After 1973 the Arab world realized that they couldn't genocide Israel without facing nuclear retaliation, the idea of taking them in open battle basically disappeared. But the effort is still going on, Chinese water torture style. They imagine (very much a case of wishful thinking, but religion tends to cause that) they can win without ever doing any single thing that provokes a nuclear launch and they'll keep at it until the missiles fly. Thus we act to ensure Israel isn't pressed into pushing the button.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Good luck. Not only is antisemitism not racism (Jews are not necessarily a race), but you are dealing with a bigot against Palestinians who applauds their ethnic cleansing and calls anyone who thinks critics of Israeli policy are antisemites (except him).

The antisemites consider Jews to be a race. Thus it is racism.

Really - you know that antisemites always consider Jews to be a race because…?

Because they treat it as heritable.

 

[laughing dog]

We've been mentioning it for quite a while, you keep sticking your head in the sand. Remember how the Sudan thread quickly died out? That's part of the genocide I'm referring to. Most of sub-Saharan Africa has Iranian-backed genocides going on. Millions dead.

Your mentioning something doesn’t make it true. Especially when you don’t provide sources. Whenever I read about the violence in that region, the UAE is mentioned and no mention if Iran. Without substantion, your claims are nit credible.

They give you plausible deniability, you keep falling for it. What part of puppetmaster do you not understand??

I understand your inability/refusal to provide evidence for your claims. Without evidence, I understand that the source for your claims that Iran has committed genocide is your ass.

Israel has been claiming for over 20 years that Iran is close to making a nuclear weapon. And Israel and the US claimed to gave destroyed Iran’s nuclear capabilities.

So I really have no idea what you mean.

If you have no idea what I mean you're being willfully blind.

And the Iranian nuclear program has been an exercise in plausible deniability for a long time.

Making a bomb is fairly easy. Making weapons grade fissionables to put in the bomb is not easy. Thus we are measuring their nuclear program by the production of the material to make the bomb. But Iran can "truthfully" say they aren't working on a bomb because they're not actually producing the hardware. But the reality is you only make weapons grade uranium for a bomb or for cases where size is really important (ships, in the old days Russia launched some satellites with small reactors.) Iran has no legitimate use for weapons grade material, thus high level enrichment is a bomb program.

And what we destroyed was their enrichment plant. The chance we actually got the bomb material is about 0%. And while you're trying to be in denial about their bomb program--they had absolutely no legitimate reason to bury their enrichment plant like that. Nobody would have wanted to bomb a plant that was merely producing reactor grade material. Thus the fact that they hardened it is extremely telling.

I haven’t denied anything about Iran’s bomb plans, so stop misrepresenting my views. I repeat, both the US and Israel claim to have destroyed Iran's nuclear capabilities including bomb making. Are they lying to the public or do you simply know more than they do?

Sounds more like cherry picking.

BTW, every attack by Israel or the US giveds the Iranian hardliners more legitimate readon to want a nuclear bomb.

They have the same reason as always--fear of retaliation if their terrorists score big enough. Same as we took down Afghanistan when their terrorists hit the WTC.

Apparently you don’t understand the meaning of “more”.

 

[laughing dog]

Good luck. Not only is antisemitism not racism (Jews are not necessarily a race), but you are dealing with a bigot against Palestinians who applauds their ethnic cleansing and calls anyone who thinks critics of Israeli policy are antisemites (except him).

The antisemites consider Jews to be a race. Thus it is racism.

Really - you know that antisemites always consider Jews to be a race because…?

Because they treat it as heritable.

And you are familiar with the motivations and reasoning of antisemites because….? I ask, because I know antisemites who hate the Jewish religion because it is not Christianity. Nothing whatsoever to do with race.

 

[Toni]

The absolute truth is that various peoples have long been targeted for violence based solely upon the fact that they belong to certain groups. Jews have been persecuted for centuries. Currently they seem in favor with the Trump and right wing conservative evangelicals, some of whom long for the end of days and who would be horrified if a Jewish family moved next door. Certainly Hamas bears much of the blame for the strikes on Israel and for refusing to release hostages, thereby prolonging the conflict and the suffering of their own people to ‘expose’ Israel as horrible and criminal. There is far too much blame to assign to be shy about healing it on the heads of all parties involved.

And you're falling for it.

You blame Hamas, but you figure there;s enough blame to go around and blame Israel, also, especially in blindly accepting any claims from Hamas about supposed Israeli actions. But you have no power over Hamas, whereas world opinion has power over Israel. Thus you actually end up doing Hamas' bidding.

Certainly these days, it is Iran who is helping continue the conflict but it’s been various Arab states for nearly 100 years. And why?

Because it is profitable and allows heads of state who are struggling to stay in power and accrue wealth in the face of genuine , serious issues facing their peoples who struggle to modernize while holding on to their culture, traditions and way of life to blame other Satans rather than the fact that these are enormous problems for every society and take a lot of time and effort and resources, not to mention humility to begin to address.

The eternal war with EastAsia is part of it, but Iran is also using it to gain covert control.

And note that this in no way exonerates Iran.

Racism exists because it allows us to quickly identify an enemy or an ‘other’ upon whom to place blame for whatever we are struggling with. It allows us to justify treating other human beings as less than, as sub human, as livestock because then their wants and needs and thoughts do not matter. What matters is only their utility and a large part of that utility is in serving as scape goat and beast of burden.

Underwear gnome logic.

You are not establishing that "Palestinian" is a race, you are not refuting the point that they are a population subjected to a lifetime of indoctrination in hate.

They are victims--but it's those using them as cannon fodder that are the true victimizers. You're blaming the cannons when the cannon fodder dies.

You are conflating things, mostly your own perceptions and prejudices with reality,

Hamas is at fault for starting this latest war. They are at fault for not releasing Israeli hostages to stop the destruction of Palestinian people.

Israel is at fault for the brutality of their response and for the rape of men, women and children which is a war crime.

Iran of course wants to be THE power in the Middle East And is delighted to throw money to Hamas to continue to distract from its domestic problems by casting Israel as a great satan, just as it has cast the US as the great satan.

Bibi and Trump are delighted to start and continue wars to distract from domestic problems and the fact that neither has any decent domestic policy plans. And to shore up their own impotence and dottering old age.

Some right wing ‘Christian’ nationalists and just plain right wing ‘Christians’ are either longing for the rapture and hoping to bring it about or are atoning for past anti-semitism. Or think they are. A significant number are in it for the power and money.

The rest of your post is just nonsense.

Palestinians and Jews are both Semitic people. They share much of the same cultural and religious traditions, as well as the same historic origins.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Opposing genocide is not anti-Semitic. The Jewish people have themselves been subjected to genocide many times throughout history, and Netanyahu's heavy-handed actions are making future atrocities more likely, not less. He may claim to represent the sivereign will and only hope of all Jewish people, but he does not, and is not.

Underwear gnomes.

First you must establish genocide. We have a slew of allegations, no proof. Even by Hamas' numbers Israel did far better than the norm for western powers.

 

[Politesse]

Opposing genocide is not anti-Semitic. The Jewish people have themselves been subjected to genocide many times throughout history, and Netanyahu's heavy-handed actions are making future atrocities more likely, not less. He may claim to represent the sovereign will and only hope of all Jewish people, but he does not, and is not.

Underwear gnomes.

First you must establish genocide. We have a slew of allegations, no proof. Even by Hamas' numbers Israel did far better than the norm for western powers.

It's not a contest I care to compete in.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Trump, if he had any tiny bit of honor, would admit that he fucked up catastrophically and resign as President. But he does not have any tiny bit of honor. Same goes for Netanyahu. And Fuck Iran too.

What do you want Iran to do?
They had a nuclear deal, then you elected that piece of shit.

Iran wasn't honoring it anyway.

I thought Iran was honoring it until Trump withdrew the US from it and instituted sanctions.

Once again, plausible deniability.

Iran was permitting inspection of the declared facilities, denied that other locations were nuclear facilities and thus no inspections.

Since then some of those "not nuclear" facilities have been hit and their nuclear nature exposed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Looking like Israel wasn't certain they could manage the Iranian response if they acted alone. And then let the US do the heavy lifting. And after all this... we gained what...?

We gained the absence of mushroom clouds.

Iran still has enriched material. Theocracy still exists. Iran wasn't actively building a bomb. So, let's try again.

Why does you brain go to mush whenever Iran comes up?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think we can say Iran was coloring outside the lines, but we had better access to know what was going on.

I don't think we will know the whole story in the reasonable future. Iran was definitely outside the lines, we aren't in a position to see by how much.

Loren, the anti-Arab/Persian juat wants an excuse to cleanse the world of Palestinians and Iranians.

I have no problem with the Iranians, just with their government.

And the problem with the Palestinians is they have been indoctrinated in hate for a lifetime.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yugoslavia: You don't understand how bothered western people are about genocide if there's someone around to report on it.

There was no genocide until NATO invaded.

Nice job of getting it backwards.

Libya: Yeah, a defense pact. Does Pan Am 103 ring a bell? And, in the end, again, genocide.

OK, then Russia can invade US because what you did to native americans in 19 century or slavery.
Is that what you trying to say here?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

We have gone after Libya twice.

The first time was a response to Pan Am 103. It worked, Libya learned their lesson and didn't do anything like that again. (Do you realize that Pan Am 103 was a Libyan operation? Technically an act of war, to which both England the US would have been entitled to respond with anything up to and including a full invasion.) The second time was when he was importing foreign mercenaries to kill his own people in large numbers because his own army wouldn't fire on them.

 

[laughing dog]

Trump, if he had any tiny bit of honor, would admit that he fucked up catastrophically and resign as President. But he does not have any tiny bit of honor. Same goes for Netanyahu. And Fuck Iran too.

What do you want Iran to do?
They had a nuclear deal, then you elected that piece of shit.

Iran wasn't honoring it anyway.

I thought Iran was honoring it until Trump withdrew the US from it and instituted sanctions.

Once again, plausible deniability.

Iran was permitting inspection of the declared facilities, denied that other locations were nuclear facilities and thus no inspections.

Since then some of those "not nuclear" facilities have been hit and their nuclear nature exposed.

Every source I’ve seen says Iran honored its JPCOA commitments until the USA. Provide a link to a credible source that substantiates your claim if you wish to be taken seriously.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The presence of NATO poses no problem for Russia so long as Russia isn't looking to expand.

Similarly presence of atom bombs in Iran or missiles in Cuba do not matter unless they attack. Why is Trump after Cuba?

1) Iran. It matters because Iran wants them as a shield against retaliation for the acts of their terrorists. You have the same problem with Pakistan--they keep sending terrorists into India and you can't actually stop them because that would cause a nuclear war.

2) Cuba.
2a) Reality isn't a video game. You do not have immediate launch detection (especially back then, our systems have gotten much better since) and responses take time. The issue is a decapitation strike--attempt to take out our command and control before the launch order gets sent. That being said, we were out of line as we had done the same thing with missiles in Turkey.

2b) Cuba has made a pastime of causing trouble for the US. They get a menace to blame their ills on (never mind that they can trade with the rest of the area, the actual losses are small) and peaceful gestures from us get met with hostile ones from them to ensure the war with EastAsia continues. (For example, during a period where we were offering asylum to Cubans who landed in Florida they responded by putting a whole bunch of common criminals on boats and send them our way.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is because of NATO/US and their instigation of unrest in Ukraine. No harm to NATO/US countries, Ukraine stands destroyed, Russia too looses. They don't care about Ukraine and delight in problems that Russia is made to face. That is exactly what NATO/US wanted

Exactly. They never even wanted Ukraine in EU. It's been 12 years and EU says that Ukraine can forget about entering EU in the next 10 years if ever. The whole thing was devised to have a proxy war with Russia. Elensky own advisers said so before the war. I repeat they said that before (!!!) the war!
It was not a secret to anybody in Ukraine or Russia.

Ukraine knew Russia had hostile intentions. Anticipating war doesn't mean wanting war.

You are unbearable. Arestovich is on record saying "War with Russia might be the price for EU membership"
Yes, he knew EU had hostile intentions. After all, he had the example of Georgia before him.

Cause and effect.

Applying for EU membership might cause Russia to attack. Doesn't mean they want the war.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ukraine knew Russia had hostile intentions. Anticipating war doesn't mean wanting war.

I do not think Russia had any such intention before removal of Yuschenko. NATO knew that, and that is why they created unrest in Ukraine.

Why do you need an outside agitator? The Ukranians didn't like a leader that was answering to Moscow instead of the people. Russia lost it's covert control and went for open control instead.

But I agree this is just a case of falling for propaganda.

Again, I do not think so.

It's mostly garbage these days. Clickbait and AI hallucination. (The AI stuff usually ends up saying the opposite of it's headline.)

That is not my experience. DuckAssist and GPT-5 give me just the information that I need. I am happy with them. I never register for GPT, registration is necessary for Duckduckgo. Tor is a bit beyond my range. I do not need that kind of security.

And you think that qualifies you to know 2 + 2??

AI is even worse than looking at a feed as it actively seeks out stuff to match your beliefs.

Yeah, that's how to go down the rabbit hole. More informative is to look at the apparently-credible articles that appear to disagree, see if they have anything to them.

Whether the articles agree or differ, it is still your decision to accept a view. If one depends only on disagreeing articles, that is succumbing to propaganda.

No, because you can usually discern which side is telling the truth. One side will resort to facts, one to emotional claims. If both sides are emotional look deeper until you find facts. And pay special attention to what each side says about the other's claims. This is where facts vs emotions become even more prevalent.