Fear of God - It's what makes us nicer: Study

[Eric H]

The Greeks figured out that if the gods exist, they're evil fucking cunts. This still applied when Christianity was invented.

Maybe the thread title should be, 'NO fear of God' It's what makes us nicer: Study

 

[RavenSky]

If you were to constantly see people trying to rape others, would you only try and step in nine out of ten times to stop it and ignore the rest

I think you may have missed my point, if God were to prevent every single rape, then you would expect him to prevent every murder and every war. Would you expect him to prevent every case of GBH? Would you prevent every act of adultery?

yes

 

[Eric H]

I think you may have missed my point, if God were to prevent every single rape, then you would expect him to prevent every murder and every war. Would you expect him to prevent every case of GBH? Would you prevent every act of adultery?

yes

I agree with your yes, that God should prevent every murder, rape, GBH and act of adultery. But it would be so much better; if man could willingly overcome these destructive needs themselves. I believe that when God created us, he loved each and everyone of us, as he loves himself. We are given the greatest commandments to return God's love. And because God loves everyone, we are given the second commandment to do the same.

We are given some freedom to love willingly, but this also gives us the freedom to disobey God's command and choose evil.

Can God have any greater purpose to create the universe and life, than to love everyone of us, as he loves himself?

 

[bilby]

yes

I agree with your yes, that God should prevent every murder, rape, GBH and act of adultery. But it would be so much better; if man could willingly overcome these destructive needs themselves. I believe that when God created us, he loved each and everyone of us, as he loves himself. We are given the greatest commandments to return God's love. And because God loves everyone, we are given the second commandment to do the same.

We are given some freedom to love willingly, but this also gives us the freedom to disobey God's command and choose evil.

Can God have any greater purpose to create the universe and life, than to love everyone of us, as he loves himself?

Somebody who demands that you love them or else is known as a 'stalker'.

You are describing a God who fails to achieve the most basic moral standards expected of civilised people; Joe Stalin demanded that people love him, and demanded their obedience to his commandments, but he was less evil than the God you are describing, in as much as even his worst punishments for transgressions were finite in scope.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I agree with your yes, that God should prevent every murder, rape, GBH and act of adultery. But it would be so much better; if man could willingly overcome these destructive needs themselves.

But we're not. We're not overcoming it. Human beings have been around for about 200 000 years and rape and murder has been a part of life for us. Even if we just take Christianity. Jesus has had 2000 years to do it. I'd say 2000 years is enough time for us to call Christianity a failure. We tried it. It just didn't work.

The problem is of course the basic design of the human brain. We're compelled by neurochemicals to engage in these destructive behaviours. That's down to basic design. If you believe in God... then it's God's fault. God created us to murder and rape each other. So it's a bit rich for God to come and ask us to stop. He could easily have designed a brain that doesn't do all this. Lots of animals don't rape and murder eachother. So it's obviously not impossible.

I believe that when God created us, he loved each and everyone of us, as he loves himself. We are given the greatest commandments to return God's love. And because God loves everyone, we are given the second commandment to do the same.

I don't follow you. Are you claiming God is an idiot? He loved us and wanted good things for it, but just couldn't pull it off, because he sucks?

We are given some freedom to love willingly, but this also gives us the freedom to disobey God's command and choose evil.

Where's the freedom? I don't know what variant of Christianity you follow. But either it's one where the choice is life in an eternal paradise, or one of eternal torment. That's no choice at all. Or you're one of the Christians who believe that everybody makes it to heaven and life is some sort of emotional trial to prepare us for life in heaven. In that scenario what you do in life is truly irrelevant. So where's the freedom?

To me the test of God is just a test of intelligence. Why bother being a Christian and believing in God? What's the pay-off?

Can God have any greater purpose to create the universe and life, than to love everyone of us, as he loves himself?

Of course he/she/it can. You're a mere human stuck on a tiny rock hurtling through space in a remote corner of the galaxy, a galaxy that is just another galaxy like many other. You're speculating as if your window onto the galaxy could even begin to speculate what could motivate a being that is external to this universe all together. Why? You must surely understand that it's hubris to the extreme to reason this way? The answer is... (even if God exists) how the hell could anybody know?

 

[RavenSky]

yes

I agree with your yes, that God should prevent every murder, rape, GBH and act of adultery. But it would be so much better; if man could willingly overcome these destructive needs themselves.

Why would it be better. Better for whom? The child that was raped? The woman tortured and murdered?

Moreover, the god your bible writes about couldn't overcome "willingly overcome these destructive needs" himself. Floods, temples, babies, towns...

I believe that when God created us, he loved each and everyone of us, as he loves himself. We are given the greatest commandments to return God's love. And because God loves everyone, we are given the second commandment to do the same.

Being commanded to "love" anyone is what abusers do

We are given some freedom to love willingly, but this also gives us the freedom to disobey God's command and choose evil.

That is the 'choice' your god offers? "Love me or you are evil" Still sounds like an abuser.

Can God have any greater purpose to create the universe and life, than to love everyone of us, as he loves himself?

Given the horrors in the world, your god has a very troubling concept of "love"

 

[iolo]

People imagine gods, and they do so within the limits of their own, small experience. It is foolish to spend time blaming a fantasy on the fantasies of fantasists. If there were a God, how could they know anything about It/Her/Him or whatever?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I preferred your previous answer, when you said you would stop all rape if you had the power to do so. Now you want to give the rapist freedom to rape, providing their victim is over 18.

Adults can do what they want to each other and he leaves them be

Is this where freethought, logic and reason lead us? If there is no god, then we can all have a good time at the expense of others, providing we can get away with it. This seems to be in direct opposition to God's command, to love our neighbour as we love ourselves.

Or how about not having natural disasters and accidents be a thing? Tornados always spin off to the left and miss the trailer park. Tsunamis only flood uninhabited areas.

You seemed to be ok with tribe A, shooting all the adults in tribe B, so you seem to be ok with violent death, so why would it be any worse dying in a tornado or tsunamis? Do we prefer to kill our enemy, rather than let nature take its toll.

You want to gun down a village for the crime of being part of Tribe B instead of Tribe A, you can go nuts but all of your bullets just happen to miss any children and the survivors have all their fridges fully stocked afterwards.

Adults can do what they want to each other and he leaves them be but attempts to victimize children just ... don't work.

First off, I would still stop all rapes. I'm talking about actions your god could take when he chooses not to do so. These were all attempts to figure out what your position is on where he places the line where he's willing to intervene in human affairs - which you say he does. I still don't know what your opinion on that is and where you feel God is OK with intervening.

I don't understand why you feel that's such a difficult question to answer.

We are not God, all we can do is try our best to make this world a slightly better place to live in.

Yes, but we're not discussing us - we're discussing God. He IS God and his best is absolute perfection in every action he takes. He makes the choice to respond to prayers or ignore prayers. He makes the choice to stop the victimization of innocents or allow the crimes against them to happen. Given that you are of the opinion that he intervenes in the world on occasion, what are those occasions and why are things like the situations discussed not part of them?

 

[fromderinside]

Belief in punitive deities key factor in more co-operative society, study finds.

That's not what the study showed at all. The study was for in-goup vs out-group behaviour. The type of God was irrelevant. Only the strength of the identity. It's like saying that Nazis are more likely to be nice to other Nazis. Well.. duh.

If you are talking about the study and not the news story then it would ber nice to link the actual article which is:
" Morlaistic Gods supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality" https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Benjamin_Purzycki/publication/293820494_Moralistic_gods_supernatural_punishment_and_the_expansioof_hn_uman_sociality/links/5735d77b08ae298602e091a0.pdf

These result build on previous findings and have important imp-
cations for understanding the evolution of the wide-ranging cooper-
ation found in large-scale societies. Moreover, when people are more
inclined to behave impartially towards others, they are more likely to
share beliefs and behaviours that foster the development of larger-scale
cooperative institutions, trade, markets and alliances with strangers.
This helps to partly explain two phenomena: the evolution of large and
complex human societies and the religious features of societies with
greater social complexity that are heavily populated by such Gods.

In addition to some forms of religious rituals and non-religious norms
and institutions, such as courts, markets and police, the present results
point to the role that commitment to knowledgeable, moralistic and
punitive gods plays in solidifying the social bonds that create broader
imagined communities.

Although it's a letter and not a normal refereed article there's also some data we might get our arms around included in it.

Since it claims some evolutionary relevance I might as well get my rage out about studies of extant, usually primitive, societies as germane material for such study. That is there are suggestions that since the cultures are more 'pristine' examples of recent civilization they are more likely to be connected to genes and evolution.

I call BS.

Just as I suggest that Pinker has no right to claim evidence in modern culture of elites setting trends for the hoi polloi to follow as evolutionary fact for more inclusive society.


Note: probably premature or wrong but we're not discussing God. Rather we are discussing an article that appeared in Nature that was reported on by a news source about claim about the evolutionary consequences of religion and belief in gods. In other words is believe in such an evolutionary fact supporting moral relevance.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Man has already been given a self Governance as seen in Gods covenant with Noah.

Genesis 9.
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.


Good ideas and the answers are there. The gift of common sense. Wonder why man builds homes on known fault lines and by the seashores without instant special escape measures. Oddly enough we have that experience knowing these situations.

OK, so where should people not build houses? Do you feel that everyone should move out of California due to the fault line there and it's their own damn fault if they don't? Given that there's a hurricane hitting some Caribbean islands right now, was people populating those a mistake and any injuries or casualties which result from it are due to their not having the common sense to instead live in ... well, you didn't actually mention what areas people with common sense would live in - what are those?

Electrical boxes are designed to switch off in the event of children sticking a fork in a socket and minor fender benders are the worst that people driving in cars need to be concerned with. None of those would interfere with free will and they'd make life immeasurably better for millions. What's wrong with that type of intervention?

More common sense in use... an example , the ability is there to prevent disastrious outcomes to ourselves ,when we decide to get it right.

So, are you saying that toddlers should have the common sense not to stick forks into electrical sockets? Or are you saying that if parents don't have common sense to baby proof their house, it's a good thing that their children suffer as a result? I'm not really sure what point it is that you're trying to go for here.

If you saw a child about to stick a fork into an electrical socket, would you stop him from doing so? I would, but you seem to be making the claim that God would not and the reason that he would not is because of it being someone else's fault - is that an accurate representation of your position or are you saying something else? If it's something else, what is that?

 

[Eric H]

Being commanded to "love" anyone is what abusers do"

We are commanded to love God, but we show our love for God, in the ways we show our love for the less fortunate in life ......

Mathew 25: 35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous* will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

This is not my idea of abuse.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Being commanded to "love" anyone is what abusers do"

We are commanded to love God, but we show our love for God, in the ways we show our love for the less fortunate in life ......

Mathew 25: 35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous* will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

This is not my idea of abuse.

It is far worse than abuse, at least under most translations. Let's add some context (bold mine):

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. 36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’
40 “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,‡ you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Eric H]

We are commanded to love God, but we show our love for God, in the ways we show our love for the less fortunate in life ......

Mathew 25: 35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous* will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

This is not my idea of abuse.

It is far worse than abuse, at least under most translations. Let's add some context (bold mine):

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. 36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’
40 “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,‡ you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

We allow twenty thousand children to die needlessly every single day from grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. We essentially condemn these children to eternal death without any justice, because we don't care enough for them.

We spend billions on dieting because we eat too much, we throw mountains of food away, and we spend trillions on the war machine to kill people.

If we really feared God, then we would take more notice of your bold text. It only seems fair that we should share our wealth and help others, I am not sure why that should be a problem.

 

[bilby]

It is far worse than abuse, at least under most translations. Let's add some context (bold mine):

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. 36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’
40 “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,‡ you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

We allow twenty thousand children to die needlessly every single day from grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. We essentially condemn these children to eternal death without any justice, because we don't care enough for them.

We spend billions on dieting because we eat too much, we throw mountains of food away, and we spend trillions on the war machine to kill people.

If we really feared God, then we would take more notice of your bold text. It only seems fair that we should share our wealth and help others, I am not sure why that should be a problem.

Sharing our wealth and helping others is NOT a problem; these are very nice things to do.

Threatening people with eternal punishment for failing to share their wealth and help others seems a little harsh though. I mean, you wouldn't (I hope) imprison (for life) a person, for the crime of ignoring another person in need - and yet that punishment is nothing, compared to what you fear your God will do to that person.

The suggestion that people should be kind is great. The threat of eternal damnation for failing to follow that suggestion is obscene, despotic, hugely excessive, and vile. That is how your God is being presented - as a vicious and harsh dictator. Fear of such a being would be reasonable (if there was any good reason to think he existed), but worship of him would most assuredly not be reasonable at all.

A God of whom people are afraid is incompatible with a God worthy of love or worship. You need to pick one, because love and fear are irreconcilable as sane responses to an all powerful entity.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So, are you saying that toddlers should have the common sense not to stick forks into electrical sockets? Or are you saying that if parents don't have common sense to baby proof their house, it's a good thing that their children suffer as a result? I'm not really sure what point it is that you're trying to go for here.

If you saw a child about to stick a fork into an electrical socket, would you stop him from doing so? I would, but you seem to be making the claim that God would not and the reason that he would not is because of it being someone else's fault - is that an accurate representation of your position or are you saying something else? If it's something else, what is that?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

+

It is far worse than abuse, at least under most translations. Let's add some context (bold mine):

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. 36 I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’
40 “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,‡ you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

We allow twenty thousand children to die needlessly every single day from grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. We essentially condemn these children to eternal death without any justice, because we don't care enough for them.

We spend billions on dieting because we eat too much, we throw mountains of food away, and we spend trillions on the war machine to kill people.

If we really feared God, then we would take more notice of your bold text. It only seems fair that we should share our wealth and help others, I am not sure why that should be a problem.

Actually, I don't do any of that. I don't have billions to spend on dieting (I don't eat too much, anyway), I don't throw food away, I have nothing to do with any war machine (not only because I live in a country with a military essentially incapable of fighting, but because it's not my choice how tax money is spent - it just happens not to be spent on the military). I condemn no one to death, even if it were true that I let them die (which is not).

And of course, I don't fear Yahweh, just as I don't fear, say, Palpatine. But none of your false accusations are relevant. Even if I were guilty of that, Yahweh's behavior would be no better than Palpatine's (actually, it would be much worse).

 

[DrZoidberg]

We allow twenty thousand children to die needlessly every single day from grinding poverty, preventable disease and starvation. We essentially condemn these children to eternal death without any justice, because we don't care enough for them.

We spend billions on dieting because we eat too much, we throw mountains of food away, and we spend trillions on the war machine to kill people.

If we really feared God, then we would take more notice of your bold text. It only seems fair that we should share our wealth and help others, I am not sure why that should be a problem.

This is a slight derail, but the fact that rich people have too much food isn't the reason poor people are starving. People who starve today do so, not because their socieity lacks the funds or technology, but because it's a war on right where they live. Just getting UN food aid to these people is a problem. So we don't have to feel bad beacuse we throw away food. We don't even have to feel bad because we aren't stopping the wars. Wars are more complicated than that. We're funding the war machine for a reason. Like it or not, no war machine is worse than war machine. In a power vacuum you get mayhem. War machines trump anarchy any day.

 

[RavenSky]

Being commanded to "love" anyone is what abusers do"

We are commanded to love God,...

As I said, commanding someone to "love" you is what abusers do.

And as Angra Mainyu and Bilby point out with your bible's words, commanding that "love" under threat of "eternal fire" is what a homicidal psychotic abuser would do

 

[iolo]

'We are commanded to love God'. It might make sense to command us to act as if we felt that emotion, though it sounds hypocritical, but surely emotions just happen, and are not under conscious command at all?

 

[Learner]

We are commanded to love God,...

As I said, commanding someone to "love" you is what abusers do.

And as Angra Mainyu and Bilby point out with your bible's words, commanding that "love" under threat of "eternal fire" is what a homicidal psychotic abuser would do

The threat of hell doesn't come till later in the bible after all the covenants and laws before.Christians such as myself believe; God by the covenants made were then broken,then made again and broken again should then by the acts not following those laws.God must then destroy man for failure to keep to what man promised. God does not lie or withdraw his side of the agreements and it pains him to do so. Hence Jesus .. the negotiator the last chance, the last hope. It was He that gave the final ultimatum between heaven or hell.