Songs about women not getting enough orgasms

[Toni]

I'm sure you do. I find your attitudes about women and sex to be sad and quite naive.



Your knowledge and experience are extremely limited.

I think you find porn unimaginative because you've only read and seen unimaginative pornography. I'm not saying Fifty Shades of Grey is imaginative nor high quality pornography, but it is pornography and was one of the best selling books of all time, primarily bought by women. Women aren't innocent little flowers. They most often have filthy filthy minds. And it's about time they stop feeling ashamed of it. You're not helping.

I think you are projecting quite a lot.

I cannot think of a single woman I know who is ashamed of her body or ashamed of liking or wanting sex. Or varied sex.

Sex aids are not new to your generation nor to the last 100 years. Seriously, try looking up the history of porn.

Your imagination is as limited as your experience.

Fifty Shades? WTF? That's what you think I've read? You are daft.

And what's this 'innocent little flower' crappola? Sounds like just one giant projection of your own hangups and not any experience of any woman I know or have ever known.

On the topic of projecting.

I didn't say you read Fifty Shades of Grey. I said a shit tonne of women did. The fact that you can't relate to those women, I think, says a lot. I think it's as easy as a lot of women don't want to be what you want them to be.

You have no idea what or who I relate to. You simply cannot handle the idea that your own preconceived notions of what women do and do not like might not hold for all women. Or any women.

 

[Toni]

I just want to throw in that I don't think American culture is overly Conservative, for the most part. As you say, most women probably lead fairly average sex lives.

The thing about Sweden, as DZ mentions is that there's a big feminist faction. If I know anything about feminists it's that they can be quite progressive sexually, so I could feasibly see a difference in attitudes between the two countries.

All this really comes down to is that there might be some things getting lost in translation in this conversation. And I'll just leave it at that.

Blessed are the peace makers indeed.

At the risk of having this misunderstood, I would like to offer one view of this conversation.

I see DZ as being someone who is certain he has the best sex ever! No question! I am happy for him, no matter how much I disagree with his claims about what women like and don't like. I'd be much more impressed if he were to discuss what he/men liked/wanted/needed. After all, he is not a woman.

I see you as being someone (in this conversation only--please don't make more of it than even less than a tiny tiny tiny snapshot of a very short exchange) who maybe doubts himself (in general) and looks a bit outward, thinking that somewhere else/someone else must be doing it more/better/having more fun. Or just more...whatever. Probably some are, just as probably there are plenty who are having considerably less fun. Personally, I don't think that matters. It's not a competition with only one (or two or so) winners. It's not a zero sum game and there is definitely not only one best way to do it. What matters is what you --and your partner--want and need. Who cares about the rest of the world?


What I think is that it doesn't really matter if someone else is having more or better sex than you are, or if they think they are. What matters is if you are satisfied with the sex you are having, with the person(s) you are having sex with, how you feel it fits into your life and your relationship(s) and how you feel in general. And if you are not, what are you willing to do to find the satisfaction you desire? Sure, there are books, videos, other people, etc. but none of that matters. What matters is what happens in your relationship. And not just the sex parts, although it's all pretty intertwined.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I see DZ as being someone who is certain he has the best sex ever! No question! I am happy for him, no matter how much I disagree with his claims about what women like and don't like. I'd be much more impressed if he were to discuss what he/men liked/wanted/needed. After all, he is not a woman.

I never made that claim. My claim is just that its normal to be an uptight neurotic mess regarding sex. I've seen a lot of improvement in the 20+ years I've been sexually active. And I think porn is helping

 

[Toni]

I see DZ as being someone who is certain he has the best sex ever! No question! I am happy for him, no matter how much I disagree with his claims about what women like and don't like. I'd be much more impressed if he were to discuss what he/men liked/wanted/needed. After all, he is not a woman.

I never made that claim. My claim is just that its normal to be an uptight neurotic mess regarding sex. I've seen a lot of improvement in the 20+ years I've been sexually active. And I think porn is helping

In general, people do become less uptight as they gain experience.

 

[rousseau]

I just want to throw in that I don't think American culture is overly Conservative, for the most part. As you say, most women probably lead fairly average sex lives.

The thing about Sweden, as DZ mentions is that there's a big feminist faction. If I know anything about feminists it's that they can be quite progressive sexually, so I could feasibly see a difference in attitudes between the two countries.

All this really comes down to is that there might be some things getting lost in translation in this conversation. And I'll just leave it at that.

Blessed are the peace makers indeed.

At the risk of having this misunderstood, I would like to offer one view of this conversation.

I see DZ as being someone who is certain he has the best sex ever! No question! I am happy for him, no matter how much I disagree with his claims about what women like and don't like. I'd be much more impressed if he were to discuss what he/men liked/wanted/needed. After all, he is not a woman.

I see you as being someone (in this conversation only--please don't make more of it than even less than a tiny tiny tiny snapshot of a very short exchange) who maybe doubts himself (in general) and looks a bit outward, thinking that somewhere else/someone else must be doing it more/better/having more fun. Or just more...whatever. Probably some are, just as probably there are plenty who are having considerably less fun. Personally, I don't think that matters. It's not a competition with only one (or two or so) winners. It's not a zero sum game and there is definitely not only one best way to do it. What matters is what you --and your partner--want and need. Who cares about the rest of the world?


What I think is that it doesn't really matter if someone else is having more or better sex than you are, or if they think they are. What matters is if you are satisfied with the sex you are having, with the person(s) you are having sex with, how you feel it fits into your life and your relationship(s) and how you feel in general. And if you are not, what are you willing to do to find the satisfaction you desire? Sure, there are books, videos, other people, etc. but none of that matters. What matters is what happens in your relationship. And not just the sex parts, although it's all pretty intertwined.

Interesting that you hold that perspective.

I'd say my fiance and I have a pretty comfortable and secure sex life without many hangups about anything. I might be a little awkward online, but have had my fair share of relationships, so at this point have made most of the mistakes and learned the right things, which is easy to do if you're the type of person that pays attention to what they're doing.

The interesting thing about that part of my life now is that I was my fiance's first relationship, so it's been incredibly rewarding walking with her through that process.

 

[ronburgundy]

I cannot think of a single woman I know who is ashamed of her body or ashamed of liking or wanting sex. Or varied sex.

IOW, you believe one or both of the following absurdly false ideas:
1. That culture and gender norms have absolutely zero impact on how people feel or act.
2. That no aspect of Western culture, including religion, includes any kind of notions that sex for pleasure is shameful.

Only if one of both of these demonstrably false ideas were true, would your denial that many women feel shame related to sexual pleasure be remotely plausible.

 

[Toni]

I cannot think of a single woman I know who is ashamed of her body or ashamed of liking or wanting sex. Or varied sex.

IOW, you believe one or both of the following absurdly false ideas:
1. That culture and gender norms have absolutely zero impact on how people feel or act.
2. That no aspect of Western culture, including religion, includes any kind of notions that sex for pleasure is shameful.

Only if one of both of these demonstrably false ideas were true, would your denial that many women feel shame related to sexual pleasure be remotely plausible.

You need to read more carefully. I did not claim that no women felt shame, just not women that I know. Men and women both experience shame and discomfort with their bodies, their sexuality, their need or desire for sex. Frankly I believe that these days, a lot more of the blame falls on advertising and pop culture than religion.

 

[ronburgundy]

IOW, you believe one or both of the following absurdly false ideas:
1. That culture and gender norms have absolutely zero impact on how people feel or act.
2. That no aspect of Western culture, including religion, includes any kind of notions that sex for pleasure is shameful.

Only if one of both of these demonstrably false ideas were true, would your denial that many women feel shame related to sexual pleasure be remotely plausible.

You need to read more carefully. I did not claim that no women felt shame, just not women that I know.

IOW, in response to Dr. Z's statement about many women, you countered with a meaningless reference to the tiny non-representative group of women you personally know who are highly atypical of the culture Dr. Z is referring to? Seems an odd approach to an honest argument. Silly me. I assumed you were attempting to make a point that you thought had some logical relevance to the post you were responding to.

Men and women both experience shame and discomfort with their bodies, their sexuality, their need or desire for sex.

True, which makes it highly implausible there is not "a single women [you] know who is ashamed of her body or ashamed of liking sex."
It suggests you not only offered a meaningless personal anecdote as evidence, but actually made it up just to have something to make Dr. Z look wrong for his rather modest statement about women and sexual shame.

As for your implication that there are no difference in cultural gender roles regarding acceptable sexual promiscuity and gratification, that is only slightly less absurd, demonstrably false, and contradicted by all feminist analyses than the implication that women don't feel shame about sex. Anticipating that you will once again deny the obvious implication behind your comment, mentioning male sexual shame only has any relevance to anything in this thread, if the implication is that men are made to feel equally ashamed as women about their sexual actions and pleasure seeking. Unless that it the case, then Dr. Z's point is unaffected by the fact that men feel some shame as well.

Frankly I believe that these days, a lot more of the blame falls on advertising and pop culture than religion.

And pop culture strongly promotes more sexual shame for women than men. While that is slowly shifting, the difference is still notable.
Therefore, Dr. Z's point is extremely valid and your grasping at straws trying to find an excuse to disagree with him. Also, pop culture is heavily influenced by religious attitudes. Again, that is also shifting but most vestiges of sexual shame in pop culture has its roots in religion. In fact, modern pop culture facilitated by tech from the radio to TV to the internet has been attacked by most Abrahamic religions for not showing sufficient sex shame, especially regarding female sexuality.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I know it's popular to blame the media for people's insecurity with their bodies, but since it's at least tangentially on topic, allow me to point something out. Let's say we have a group of women sitting together having lunch. One woman, Sophie lets say, expresses how she simply doesn't feel beautiful.

Now, predict what will happen next.

Did you say that the other women will comfort her, tell her she's beautiful? Of course, sometimes people are trying to be nice, but most times, they're sincere. Going further, usually the other women in the group will contrast themselves with Sophie, revealing that they also have all the same insecurities about themselves.

Now, the media does tend to have a narrow standard for beauty, one that most of us cannot achieve. But, picture what would happen if the media was solely to blame. First, everyone assimilates the media’s standard of beauty. They judge beauty by that standard. That’s the theory. What does this do then? They look themselves over in the mirror. They see that they don’t fit the high standard. Eventually they give up. “I’m not beautiful,” they say.

But what happens when they look at other people? They don't judge others by those same standards... Sophie looks fine to her friends.


There are other things at play here. 1) Most people consider their own beauty important to them. 2) Most people know their own beauty and appearance better than others do.

Think about when Sophie judges the attractiveness of other people. She sees what parts (good and bad) stand out on others, and has no reason to pay any special attention to their good or bad parts for any length of time. She walks away from almost everyone with a pretty balanced view of the attractiveness. Now, contrast that with how much Sophie's beauty matters to herself. Our ow confidence about how we look to others affects how we walk down the street. Beautiful people frankly, tend to be paid better and their opinions are given more weight. They are perceived as more honest and intelligent. We all sense this, and it's born out in many studies that everyone has these biases.

So, when Sophie is in front of the mirror, what does she pay attention to? Her good points or bad? Well, she's much more familiar with herself than anyone else, and people tend to concentrate on LOSS more than GAIN. It's called Loss Aversion. We all do it. So, Sophie pays much more attention to her imperfections. People judge themselves by a much harsher standard than others do. I do this too.

Since others don’t have the ability to criticize us like only we can, and they don’t have any reason to pay special attention to our faults, their attention towards us is more balanced. They see the clearest good and bad things. A more balanced view.

In this, we're our own worst enemy. Next time you're in front of a mirror, give yourself the time and pay attention to what you like about yourself. Try to make it equal time. You'll soon realize as your mind wanders back quickly and often to criticism, how hard you are on yourself. Be kinder to yourself.

Anyway, I think I wandered off of topic more than I intended to, please carry on.

 

[Toni]

I know it's popular to blame the media for people's insecurity with their bodies, but since it's at least tangentially on topic, allow me to point something out. Let's say we have a group of women sitting together having lunch. One woman, Sophie lets say, expresses how she simply doesn't feel beautiful.

Now, predict what will happen next.

Did you say that the other women will comfort her, tell her she's beautiful? Of course, sometimes people are trying to be nice, but most times, they're sincere. Going further, usually the other women in the group will contrast themselves with Sophie, revealing that they also have all the same insecurities about themselves.

Now, the media does tend to have a narrow standard for beauty, one that most of us cannot achieve. But, picture what would happen if the media was solely to blame. First, everyone assimilates the media’s standard of beauty. They judge beauty by that standard. That’s the theory. What does this do then? They look themselves over in the mirror. They see that they don’t fit the high standard. Eventually they give up. “I’m not beautiful,” they say.

But what happens when they look at other people? They don't judge others by those same standards... Sophie looks fine to her friends.


There are other things at play here. 1) Most people consider their own beauty important to them. 2) Most people know their own beauty and appearance better than others do.

Think about when Sophie judges the attractiveness of other people. She sees what parts (good and bad) stand out on others, and has no reason to pay any special attention to their good or bad parts for any length of time. She walks away from almost everyone with a pretty balanced view of the attractiveness. Now, contrast that with how much Sophie's beauty matters to herself. Our ow confidence about how we look to others affects how we walk down the street. Beautiful people frankly, tend to be paid better and their opinions are given more weight. They are perceived as more honest and intelligent. We all sense this, and it's born out in many studies that everyone has these biases.

So, when Sophie is in front of the mirror, what does she pay attention to? Her good points or bad? Well, she's much more familiar with herself than anyone else, and people tend to concentrate on LOSS more than GAIN. It's called Loss Aversion. We all do it. So, Sophie pays much more attention to her imperfections. People judge themselves by a much harsher standard than others do. I do this too.

Since others don’t have the ability to criticize us like only we can, and they don’t have any reason to pay special attention to our faults, their attention towards us is more balanced. They see the clearest good and bad things. A more balanced view.

In this, we're our own worst enemy. Next time you're in front of a mirror, give yourself the time and pay attention to what you like about yourself. Try to make it equal time. You'll soon realize as your mind wanders back quickly and often to criticism, how hard you are on yourself. Be kinder to yourself.

Anyway, I think I wandered off of topic more than I intended to, please carry on.

Actually, extremely good points. Very good point about how women react to self critical statements by a member of their group.

I do think that many things contribute to how attractive a woman feels, but whatever the current fashion/media trends play an outsized role.

Example: a young woman I know very well has beautiful long, thick, wavy curly hair--and she hates it. With a passion. Because she was an adolescent when the fashion trend was for what I call 'heroin chic'--thin, limp hair. She's spent a lot of time and effort trying to give herself that look (but not the heroin, thankfully). Girls in my generation would have (and still do) spend big, big bucks trying to get that hair.

Lots of things go into one's perception of one's own beauty.

 

[Toni]

You need to read more carefully. I did not claim that no women felt shame, just not women that I know.

IOW, in response to Dr. Z's statement about many women, you countered with a meaningless reference to the tiny non-representative group of women you personally know who are highly atypical of the culture Dr. Z is referring to? Seems an odd approach to an honest argument. Silly me. I assumed you were attempting to make a point that you thought had some logical relevance to the post you were responding to.

In other words, I made a purposefully limited and completely honest statement based on real women I know. I am actually a woman. Dr. Z is not a woman. He made statements based on some study which he has not linked but he claims to have read, supporting his position.

But he has a penis, so obviously, he knows what he's talking about with regards to women's orgasms.

Men and women both experience shame and discomfort with their bodies, their sexuality, their need or desire for sex.

True, which makes it highly implausible there is not "a single women [you] know who is ashamed of her body or ashamed of liking sex."
It suggests you not only offered a meaningless personal anecdote as evidence, but actually made it up just to have something to make Dr. Z look wrong for his rather modest statement about women and sexual shame.

No. You are simply much more willing to believe a man about women's orgasms than you are a woman. Basically because it a)supports a love of porn and b) foists women's lack of orgasms on their lack of self esteem and not watching porn rather than anything that a man might be doing or not doing.

I totally get that.

As for your implication that there are no difference in cultural gender roles regarding acceptable sexual promiscuity and gratification, that is only slightly less absurd, demonstrably false, and contradicted by all feminist analyses than the implication that women don't feel shame about sex.

Inference is not the same thing as implication.

Anticipating that you will once again deny the obvious implication behind your comment, mentioning male sexual shame only has any relevance to anything in this thread, if the implication is that men are made to feel equally ashamed as women about their sexual actions and pleasure seeking. Unless that it the case, then Dr. Z's point is unaffected by the fact that men feel some shame as well.

I keep forgetting: the only subject that counts is women's shame/discomfort/how women fail men/fail to achieve orgasm in the way that men feel they should.

Men are great. Men have no problems, no issues with self esteem, no hang ups about sex or sexuality. Which is why men's sexuality and sexual hangups and insecurities never, ever, ever need to be discussed or mentioned. Ever. End of story.

And pop culture strongly promotes more sexual shame for women than men. While that is slowly shifting, the difference is still notable.
Therefore, Dr. Z's point is extremely valid and your grasping at straws trying to find an excuse to disagree with him. Also, pop culture is heavily influenced by religious attitudes. Again, that is also shifting but most vestiges of sexual shame in pop culture has its roots in religion. In fact, modern pop culture facilitated by tech from the radio to TV to the internet has been attacked by most Abrahamic religions for not showing sufficient sex shame, especially regarding female sexuality.

No, I was making a very limited statement. Dr. Zoidberg is making very broad statements that he wants to apply to ALL women. You seem to feel that Dr. Z is justified. I wonder why that is.

 

[RavenSky]

Fifty Shades? WTF? That's what you think I've read? You are daft.

And what's this 'innocent little flower' crappola? Sounds like just one giant projection of your own hangups and not any experience of any woman I know or have ever known.

On the topic of projecting.

I didn't say you read Fifty Shades of Grey. I said a shit tonne of women did. The fact that you can't relate to those women, I think, says a lot..

I think it says a lot, too, but not what you may want it to mean. 50 Shades of Grey was about as far from genuine BDSM writing as it is possible to get. It was nothing more than the usual "romance" novel formula with a little bit of pseudo-kink added for notoriety. All that bad boy Mr. Grey needed was the love of a good woman to turn him right around. And frankly, if anyone was reading that rot because they genuinely wanted to explore BDSM, Fifty Shades is worse than bad porn. It is downright dangerous as an "educational tool"

 

[braces_for_impact]

This whole thread reminds me of an old, but good meme.

Men, sometimes, it's good to know when to shut up.

 

[DrZoidberg]

On the topic of projecting.

I didn't say you read Fifty Shades of Grey. I said a shit tonne of women did. The fact that you can't relate to those women, I think, says a lot..

I think it says a lot, too, but not what you may want it to mean. 50 Shades of Grey was about as far from genuine BDSM writing as it is possible to get. It was nothing more than the usual "romance" novel formula with a little bit of pseudo-kink added for notoriety. All that bad boy Mr. Grey needed was the love of a good woman to turn him right around. And frankly, if anyone was reading that rot because they genuinely wanted to explore BDSM, Fifty Shades is worse than bad porn. It is downright dangerous as an "educational tool"

That wasn't my point. My point is that a lot of women bought that and got turned on by it. Step 1 is figuring out what turns you on. Step 2 is figuring out how to do it safely. Both physically and psychologically. Fifty Shades of Grey seems to have helped women with the first part. I'm just basing that on sales figures of the book.

I agree that it's a bad ideal for BDSM. The BDSM in that book was just sexual assault and rape. The "consent" was extorted. It also rests on the old trope that people are into BDSM because they've been psychologically damaged somehow. Yet, when researchers study it people into BDSM haven't been more traumatised than people in general.

I still don't have a problem with the book. Whatever helps us to know ourselves better, I'm all for it. Ignorance is NOT bliss IMHO

 

[DrZoidberg]

In other words, I made a purposefully limited and completely honest statement based on real women I know. I am actually a woman. Dr. Z is not a woman. He made statements based on some study which he has not linked but he claims to have read, supporting his position.

But he has a penis, so obviously, he knows what he's talking about with regards to women's orgasms.

Because I'm a straight man I will come across more women sexually who are having orgasms than you. As well as a variety of women. I'm now assuming you are straight.

You don't know any more than me about women's (plural) orgasms. You know about one woman's (singular) orgasms.

I know fuck all about how it feels to have common erectile dysfunction problems in men in general, other than indirectly from theory and studies. Straight women though will have come across it more often, so have more experiences to draw upon. Even if the penis wasn't attached to them.

Just because you are a woman you don't have magical mind-reading capabilities of other women. So lay off pretending that you do.

 

[Toni]

In other words, I made a purposefully limited and completely honest statement based on real women I know. I am actually a woman. Dr. Z is not a woman. He made statements based on some study which he has not linked but he claims to have read, supporting his position.

But he has a penis, so obviously, he knows what he's talking about with regards to women's orgasms.

Because I'm a straight man I will come across more women sexually who are having orgasms than you. As well as a variety of women. I'm now assuming you are straight.

I am straight but it is an assumption on your part that you have come across more women having orgasms than I have.

You don't know any more than me about women's (plural) orgasms. You know about one woman's (singular) orgasms.

Actually, I DO know more about women's orgasms than you do, if for no other reason than I have first hand experience that you lack. You only know hearsay --and whatever articles you've read. On the other hand, I have decades of personal experience, plenty of female friends, and I've probably read more articles about female sexuality than you have, including scholarly ones.

On the other hand, I only know about men's orgasms from observation, conversations and again, reading a lot of articles. Presumably, you have some personal experience.

I know fuck all about how it feels to have common erectile dysfunction problems in men in general, other than indirectly from theory and studies. Straight women though will have come across it more often, so have more experiences to draw upon. Even if the penis wasn't attached to them.

Some straight women will have come across male sexual dysfunctions more often than you have. Personally, I have not.

Just because you are a woman you don't have magical mind-reading capabilities of other women. So lay off pretending that you do.

Again, I'm not the one pretending I have magical mind reading capabilities. What I do have is of personal experience. Decades of talking to other women. Decades of reading articles, including the Kinsey Report and some of Masters and Johnson's work (I used to work occasionally for a pair of psychologists). And I don't have the same kind of ego involved. Nor do I lump all women into the same pot. Nor do I regard Fifty Shades as porn. Just....boring and bad. And it is yet another assumption that I cannot relate to women who have read Fifty Shades. And a whole different ball of wax if you see Fifty Shades as being educational to women about what they might like sexually. Multiple layers of bad assumptions, including that Fifty Shades frees women to explore...anything other than bad romance with pseudokink and perhaps some erroneous ideas about consent...

 

[DrZoidberg]

Nor do I lump all women into the same pot.

Welcome to the club. Neither do I.

Nor do I regard Fifty Shades as porn. Just....boring and bad. And it is yet another assumption that I cannot relate to women who have read Fifty Shades. And a whole different ball of wax if you see Fifty Shades as being educational to women about what they might like sexually. Multiple layers of bad assumptions, including that Fifty Shades frees women to explore...anything other than bad romance with pseudokink and perhaps some erroneous ideas about consent...

I don't have research to prove it, but I suspect that a large group of those reading Fifty Shades of Grey did it one-handed. I mean... why else read it? Except for those of us trying desperately to understand wtf the people reading it one-handed were going on about.

I was on Tinder during the peak of Fifty Shades of Grey and it was a topic that came up a lot. I didn't bring it up once. A lot of ladies couldn't stop referencing it as something they wanted to experience.

I think you're just completely wrong about the readers of Fifty Shades. If all women agree on what a shit book it was, how the hell did it become one of the best selling books of all time? I don't think the evidence is on your side here.

 

[Toni]

Welcome to the club. Neither do I.

Nor do I regard Fifty Shades as porn. Just....boring and bad. And it is yet another assumption that I cannot relate to women who have read Fifty Shades. And a whole different ball of wax if you see Fifty Shades as being educational to women about what they might like sexually. Multiple layers of bad assumptions, including that Fifty Shades frees women to explore...anything other than bad romance with pseudokink and perhaps some erroneous ideas about consent...

I don't have research to prove it, but I suspect that a large group of those reading Fifty Shades of Grey did it one-handed. I mean... why else read it? Except for those of us trying desperately to understand wtf the people reading it one-handed were going on about.

I was on Tinder during the peak of Fifty Shades of Grey and it was a topic that came up a lot. I didn't bring it up once. A lot of ladies couldn't stop referencing it as something they wanted to experience.

I think you're just completely wrong about the readers of Fifty Shades. If all women agree on what a shit book it was, how the hell did it become one of the best selling books of all time? I don't think the evidence is on your side here.

Again, you are making a lot of assumptions about me. I never said that no women were into it: I know women who were. Huge overlap with women who were into Twilight (I can't even...) I said I wasn't. I pretty much laughed and then groaned with a bunch of wtf??? I read about it, then read some reviews and summaries and even a little bit of the actual book (first in series only because why?). I found some of the premise to be quite alarming (issues of consent, etc.) and a lot of it just...a bad fantasy. Obviously it had its audience. Best case it was mildly pornographic fantasy. And not an educational tool/instructional manual. But perhaps it inspired some people. Did your Tinder dates also expect expensive gifts?

Just for shits and giggles, I decided to google a summary of Fifty Shades Darker. I really think that you'd probably learn a lot more about real life women reading this than the actual book: Divided into chapters

http://collegeatthirty.blogspot.com/2012/08/chapter-by-chapter-synopsis-fifty_8.html

 

[southernhybrid]

There's too much bickering going on in this thread so let me introduce something new to argue about.

I believe that many if not most women like sexual fantasy. Two books, which are probably out of print by now, but are well worth reading if you don't know much about this topic are "My Secret Garden" and "Forbidden Flowers." Both were written by Nancy Friday. They are compilations of women's sexual fantasies. And men might be surprised at the vast array of imaginative things we women think about during sex.

Although I used to watch a lot of porn with my husband when we were younger, the truth is that my own fantasies were always a lot better than the porn. But, don't think that because a woman fantasizes about something that she wants to actually experience that fantasy in real life. The fantasies are just that. They are ways of using the imagination to enhance the sexual experience. We women are complicated. Pleasing a woman requires both the willingness of the partner to learn what turns her on, as well as the willingness of the women to be responsive. Being responsive might require a certain atmosphere and the ability to allow your mind to go wild. As George Clinton once said in the funk tune "Cosmic Slop", "Free your mind and your ass will follow." I imagine there are women who don't need those things, but they may be unusual.

I've read that some women are anorgasmic or only capable of a single orgasm. There are people who are asexual too, so it's impossible to make accurate generalizations about all women, and things do change with age. What I could do in my twenties is no longer achievable in my 60s, but I still enjoy a very good sex life with my partner of almost forty years. I hope you all will find such sexual pleasure as you age. and I certainly won't tell anyone else what they need to do to have a satisfying sex life, but I do think having a vivid imagination never hurts. Just don't expect your partner to fulfill all of your fantasies.

And if you think older adults having sex is icky, I really hope you'll change your mind before you get too old. I've had patients in their 80s ask me if it was okay to resume having sex after one of them had surgery. I've had a woman 80 years old recently ask me questions about the possibility of having sex with her new 72 year old boyfriend. Isn't it great that we humans can keep on getting it on long after we lose our ability to reproduce!

 

[spikepipsqueak]

I think you're just completely wrong about the readers of Fifty Shades. If all women agree on what a shit book it was, how the hell did it become one of the best selling books of all time? I don't think the evidence is on your side here.

Notoriety often makes best sellers. I was volunteering in an op-shop when these books came out. The flood of them that were donated suggests that not many people thought it was worth keeping. The few people I talked to about it didn't talk about the ideas in it or other aspects, like literary value. They just wanted to make sure everybody knew they'd read it.