Religions do not teach Justice & yet no one points it out

[Ramaraksha]

 

[Lion IRC]

So in order to get reincarnated to a better life, the 5 year old child has to be raped and killed by someone ELSE.

And then THAT person who killed the child needs suffering (karma) inflicted on them by a new killer.

And they die and go on to a better life while their killer in-turn awaits their bad karma - which requires a NEW killer.

The new agent of karma kills them and then awaits their impending karma (which comes at the hands of yet another killer)

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

What happens if nobody killed the first child?

 

[Sarpedon]

So there's a hindu Jack Chick now?

 

[Ramaraksha]

So in order to get reincarnated to a better life, the 5 year old child has to be raped and killed by someone ELSE.
And then THAT person who killed the child needs suffering (karma) inflicted on them by a new killer.
And they die and go on to a better life while their killer in-turn awaits their bad karma - which requires a NEW killer.
The new agent of karma kills them and then awaits their impending karma (which comes at the hands of yet another killer)
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
What happens if nobody killed the first child?

The child was robbed of life - a life that you and i got to enjoy and only Reincarnation can make up for such a loss
Basically, it's like a child losing her favorite toy, a new toy will make up for that loss
You lose your job, a new job will make up for that loss

The cartoon talks about Justice and your post is all about Vengeance - did you not get the point about God can only deliver Vengeance? Vengeance is an eye for an eye - which is what you posted. The killer killed so he must be killed now? Is that how you view Justice? That's not Justice, it is vengeance. You run over a neighbor's dog, your dog must be killed now? That is the concept of Hell - the killer tortured in Hell - the cartoon clearly asks how does it benefit the victim? The killer comes back in another life and is killed, again, how does that benefit the victim?

"Wash. Rinse. Repeat" - you know that it is idiotic - then please understand that these ideas are not idiotic - the problem here are your ideas of vengeance and justice, not properly understanding the difference

 

[Shadowy Man]

The cartoon talks about Justice and your post is all about Vengeance - did you not get the point about God can only deliver Vengeance? Vengeance is an eye for an eye - which is what you posted. The killer killed so he must be killed now? Is that how you view Justice? That's not Justice, it is vengeance. You run over a neighbor's dog, your dog must be killed now? That is the concept of Hell - the killer tortured in Hell - the cartoon clearly asks how does it benefit the victim? The killer comes back in another life and is killed, again, how does that benefit the victim?

So, how do *you* define "justice"? In the example above, what do you think justice would look like?

 

[abaddon]

Basically, it's like a child losing her favorite toy, a new toy will make up for that loss.

The key word there is "new".

A new toy might make up for a destroyed toy in the child's eyes but it's not the same toy as before.

And that's not a good analogy for a raped and murdered child. The mom can't have the same kid back. And no new child can pick up where the 7 year old murdered child left off and BE that person.

The Hindu notion of reincarnation seems to have a blurry sense of individuality. One kid makes up for another?? No, because what made the murdered child her own personality was specific to that child; she's specific to her life-events. Ever thing is made to be what it is by its history and environment.

Also there is no adequate compensation ("justice") for suffering. Even with a replacement the mother's anguish of loss has still happened. And the raped and murdered child's horrific suffering happened. There is no possible "just" compensation for this.

 

[Ramaraksha]

So, how do *you* define "justice"? In the example above, what do you think justice would look like?

Assume you were driving and drove over a mail box - some property - Vengeance would be that guy taking his car and driving over your mail box - your property.
Justice would be for you to pay for a new mail box
Hollywood loves Vengeance - kill Bill movies and the like were built on Vengeance

The ideas are not that complicated
But when it comes to religions we blindly repeat primitive ideas born when life was much different - lots more violent, when justice was unheard of, when things were settled with fists and violence
When it comes to religion, we have no evolved at all!

 

[Ramaraksha]

Basically, it's like a child losing her favorite toy, a new toy will make up for that loss.

The key word there is "new".

A new toy might make up for a destroyed toy in the child's eyes but it's not the same toy as before.

And that's not a good analogy for a raped and murdered child. The mom can't have the same kid back. And no new child can pick up where the 7 year old murdered child left off and BE that person.

The Hindu notion of reincarnation seems to have a blurry sense of individuality. One kid makes up for another?? No, because what made the murdered child her own personality was specific to that child; she's specific to her life-events. Ever thing is made to be what it is by its history and environment.

Also there is no adequate compensation ("justice") for suffering. Even with a replacement the mother's anguish of loss has still happened. And the raped and murdered child's horrific suffering happened. There is no possible "just" compensation for this.

Yes, there is no such thing as "perfect" justice - even going back in time does not erase the horror that happened, the pain the child went thru, the pain the mother and her loved ones are going thru right now. This incident actually happened recently in Minnesota - a family "friend" abducted this little child, raped and killed her

Religions like Christianity play both sides - tell each what they want to hear - it is disgusting and what is worse is that no one speaks up.

If you look at it from the Child's viewpoint - everyone else - all other children got to go to school, first crushes, first dances, going to college, have a career, fall in love, marriage, a family, kids and then grand-kids and retirement. All those joys were taken away from her & only Reincarnation can do some sort of justice, it is not perfect but sitting in Heaven or seeing the guy who raped and killed her being nicely forgiven by God and coming up to her and leering, "how you doing kid?" - of course, again religion is silent about that. She can choose to come back in another life, enjoy all the joys of life that she was robbed of.

Same with the mother, she didn't get to enjoy her child, watch her grow up with pride, having a career maybe the next Einstein - again only Reincarnation can provide some sort of Justice. A new child does not replace the old, that is silly, no one is saying that - people have lost their children to tragedy or otherwise & they have had other children - to say the new children are making up for that loss is not right, what i am saying is that the love that the parent would have bestowed upon can now be showered on the new children. Justice is done!

 

[OLDMAN]

As the population increases, where do the "new" souls come from?

 

[Keith&Co.]

As the population increases, where do the "new" souls come from?

Any number of possible answers to that...

There's no telling how many souls there are. Maybe when physical populations were small, celestial populations were humongous in comparision, and one only reincarnated once every 200 generations. As the population increases, there's simply more opportunities and a faster turnover.

Maybe in the absence of a reincarnated soul, the body/mind interface will develop a fledgling soul.

Maybe there are simply some living beings who lack a soul. It would explain a lot about the DMV... I mean, Terri Schiavo wasn't really using hers, so it moved on into a new opportunity. Likewise DIck Cheney...

 

[Ramaraksha]

As the population increases, where do the "new" souls come from?

The Hindu view is that - this is ALL there is - no other realms, no heavens, no hells - no magic lands in the sky - this is it! Heaven is here, Hell is here - we know we experience them as humans. The idea is that we start out as bugs, animals and then move up to a Human level. But most people can't handle being human, life is just a bit too harsh, too difficult and religions jumped in to take advantage - a magic being is waiting for you to die and depending on your religion he will make you very happy or very sad.

What Hinduism is saying is that if human life is too tough for you, maybe a lower life form might suit you better. And so those that dream of 72 virgins, since all they seem to care about is sex and orgies, then life as a Bonobo monkey might suit them better. Or certain fish or birds also have a lot of sex - they get their wish
Those who dream of heaven - the easy lazy life of sitting around doing nothing, useful for nothing - might come back as a pet - dog, cat, fish, pig, lizard, plant - lots of choices. My sister's cat does nothing all day - it is very fat - all it does is to eat, poop and sleep - that's it! That cat is in Heaven!

So, you see there is a constant recycling - and we must not also forget that life exists in other planets as well - so many billions of souls - lots of life forms to choose from. Human life is just one form of life.

Finally population depends on whether one wants a family or not - there could be a limitless supply of souls ready to be born but cannot because well, people are not having any. The populations of Europe and Japan are declining because well these people are not having kids, that's all. And population around the world is increasing because people are just having more kids.

 

[abaddon]

The Hindu view is that - this is ALL there is - no other realms, no heavens, no hells - no magic lands in the sky - this is it! Heaven is here, Hell is here - we know we experience them as humans. The idea is that we start out as bugs, animals and then move up to a Human level. But most people can't handle being human, life is just a bit too harsh, too difficult and religions jumped in to take advantage - a magic being is waiting for you to die and depending on your religion he will make you very happy or very sad.

So Hinduism's a better religious fantasy than the Christian one. In both, the actual characteristics of nature are ignored in order to please people with wish-fulfillment fantasies. Hinduism is said to dispense with supernatural realms, but retains a fantasy of cosmic justice. As if nature had a care about what people want, or owed humans "justice" and a long life and whatever other personal preferences they expect life is supposed to fulfill for them.

But the difference between Hindu fantasy from the Christian fantasy is it's about being nice to people who've lost something and not about vengeance.

I wonder though, what happens to a rapist-murder in the reincarnation scheme? You made the distinction between justice and vengeance when addressing Lion IRC's post, by focusing on how nice things should be for victims. But I missed it if you said what happens to killers.

 

[Ramaraksha]

So Hinduism's a better religious fantasy than the Christian one. In both, the actual characteristics of nature are ignored in order to please people with wish-fulfillment fantasies. Hinduism is said to dispense with supernatural realms, but retains a fantasy of cosmic justice. As if nature had a care about what people want, or owed humans "justice" and a long life and whatever other personal preferences they expect life is supposed to fulfill for them.

But the difference between Hindu fantasy from the Christian fantasy is it's about being nice to people who've lost something and not about vengeance.

I wonder though, what happens to a rapist-murder in the reincarnation scheme? You made the distinction between justice and vengeance when addressing Lion IRC's post, by focusing on how nice things should be for victims. But I missed it if you said what happens to killers.

Don't get the fantasy part - Hinduism is saying this is ALL there is - Real Life is ALL there is - how is that a fantasy? A Fantasy is - some magic being is waiting for you to die and then you will get to sit on your lazy butt and enjoy the easy good life - that is a fantasy

As for nature caring and all that - you are born, you have tasted life - you have no clue why you have a brain and can think - a computer also certainly seems to have the same "brains" as we do and yet it is not self-aware! How come we do? Hindus called this missing piece the soul
So, since we are born once, why can't we be reborn?
It has happened once, why not again?

I agree that there is zero, zip evidence of Reincarnation - but what sets Reincarnation apart is that these are not just sweet words being used for conversions. Heaven is such a sweet word - "the easy lazy life is yours - our God will be pleased that you have joined the "right" religion, he will cater to your every comfort, well, because he has nothing better to do" - amazing that such Ponzi-schemes work in the 21st century but they do

As for rapist-murderer - the answer is - Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - in Sanskrit - the 2nd sweetest words from Hinduism, IMHO. You become who you are - that is what these words mean. So a guy dreaming of 72 virgins is all about sex - he becomes a bonobo monkey, he gets to be who he is, a sex maniac, indulge in what he likes. The person who thinks he is headed for heaven - enjoy the easy good life while some being caters to his comfort - will come back as a pet - dog, cat, pig, fish, plant, lizard - quite a few life forms to choose from. He gets his wish - as a pet he will get his easy good life - catered to and cared for

So we come to the rapist-murderer - what is he? Is he a human being? or is he an animal? You get the idea.

Understand this has nothing to do with God - God doesn't have to exist in such a situation - people become who they are, they decide who they want to be. These ideas have been misunderstood for a long time

 

[Ramaraksha]

" by focusing on how nice things should be for victims" lol so let's say Hinduism focuses on what should be done right by the Victim, the focus is on the victim, whereas Christianity and Islam focus on the criminal

This happened at Penn State, right? The scum was found out several years ago - then the criminal, the admin and maybe the coach got together and decided that the criminal had repented, he won't do it again and they let him go! Who was missing from the meeting? The young boy, the poor victim & his parents. They were not consulted, their opinion not taken - in fact, just like what Christianity and Islam say what will happen in the afterlife. The criminal and God have a meeting, the criminal will cry his croc tears of remorse and nice forgiving God will forgive and off the criminal goes to enjoy heaven!
In my example he gets to see this little girl who had had raped and killed and get to say hello to her

You see anything wrong with that?
Hinduism thinks it is wrong

 

[OLDMAN]

As the population increases, where do the "new" souls come from?

The Hindu view is that - this is ALL there is - no other realms, no heavens, no hells - no magic lands in the sky - this is it! Heaven is here, Hell is here - we know we experience them as humans. The idea is that we start out as bugs, animals and then move up to a Human level. But most people can't handle being human, life is just a bit too harsh, too difficult and religions jumped in to take advantage - a magic being is waiting for you to die and depending on your religion he will make you very happy or very sad.

What Hinduism is saying is that if human life is too tough for you, maybe a lower life form might suit you better. And so those that dream of 72 virgins, since all they seem to care about is sex and orgies, then life as a Bonobo monkey might suit them better. Or certain fish or birds also have a lot of sex - they get their wish
Those who dream of heaven - the easy lazy life of sitting around doing nothing, useful for nothing - might come back as a pet - dog, cat, fish, pig, lizard, plant - lots of choices. My sister's cat does nothing all day - it is very fat - all it does is to eat, poop and sleep - that's it! That cat is in Heaven!

So, you see there is a constant recycling - and we must not also forget that life exists in other planets as well - so many billions of souls - lots of life forms to choose from. Human life is just one form of life.

Finally population depends on whether one wants a family or not - there could be a limitless supply of souls ready to be born but cannot because well, people are not having any. The populations of Europe and Japan are declining because well these people are not having kids, that's all. And population around the world is increasing because people are just having more kids.

So when all lifeforms on the planet were single celled creatures what was happening to the souls?

 

[Ramaraksha]

So when all lifeforms on the planet were single celled creatures what was happening to the souls?

Souls are not just limited to humans - every living being has a soul - souls slowly move up, from bug to animal to Human and a lot of times we go the other way - see my post - My answer to Steve Jobs coming back as a Chines Worker hahaha Cartoon dated 9/1/2017. Also remember that life is not confined to just earth - there are a lot of "earths" just in this Galaxy and this galaxy is just one of billions - so we could be "humans" in some other galaxy far, far away, lol

These ideas are not to be taken so literally - these are ideas on how we should lead better lives. There is no evidence of God or the heavens or Reincarnation

Could they be just ideas? Just Metaphors?

Heaven is a metaphor for the Womb, Childhood, the nest and the Past. A wonderful time when we lived the easy good life, protected, sheltered, cared for, had few worries and basically lived in a bubble

Reincarnation stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future. When we first leave the womb, we face pain and we start crying. That is how we know life has begun - with pain. The 2nd time is when we leave the nest - college or a job - no more will there be mom and dad to protect us - we must now face the big bad world on our own - we move away from a comfortable happy existence towards pain and suffering

Sadly, Hinduism remains the only faith to offer Pain and Suffering AKA Life. Way too many, even the best of minds, fall for the cheap promise of Heaven AKA Death.

 

[OLDMAN]

Then there is absolutely no point to a fly having a soul...he is a perfect fly {whatever that means, and who judges this?} and becomes what? A bee?
Being a bee is great, expect he doesn't know he is a bee... or for that matter a person doesn't remember one life from the next so nothing is learned from this experience. Only that we are told to be better and expect more...

 

[bilby]

So when all lifeforms on the planet were single celled creatures what was happening to the souls?

Souls are not just limited to humans - every living being has a soul - souls slowly move up, from bug to animal to Human and a lot of times we go the other way - see my post - My answer to Steve Jobs coming back as a Chines Worker hahaha Cartoon dated 9/1/2017. Also remember that life is not confined to just earth - there are a lot of "earths" just in this Galaxy and this galaxy is just one of billions - so we could be "humans" in some other galaxy far, far away, lol

These ideas are not to be taken so literally - these are ideas on how we should lead better lives. There is no evidence of God or the heavens or Reincarnation

Could they be just ideas? Just Metaphors?

Heaven is a metaphor for the Womb, Childhood, the nest and the Past. A wonderful time when we lived the easy good life, protected, sheltered, cared for, had few worries and basically lived in a bubble

Reincarnation stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future. When we first leave the womb, we face pain and we start crying. That is how we know life has begun - with pain. The 2nd time is when we leave the nest - college or a job - no more will there be mom and dad to protect us - we must now face the big bad world on our own - we move away from a comfortable happy existence towards pain and suffering

Sadly, Hinduism remains the only faith to offer Pain and Suffering AKA Life. Way too many, even the best of minds, fall for the cheap promise of Heaven AKA Death.

Souls are about as plausible as married bachelors, square circles, and immovable objects. They are both imaginary and impossible.

 

[DBT]

Reincarnation appears to require a Cosmic accountant weighing up each act ever performed in terms of ethical value, then orchestrating the event of the World in order bring about balance between wrongs that were done and, presumably, lessons to be taught. Except the players cannot know what these associations are because there is no immediate or obvious connection to be made.

 

[Lion IRC]

If you can change the definitions of words like marriage to give everyone equality then surely bachelors can call themselves 'married'.
And bats can be called birds.
And atheism can be called a religion.
And Pluto can be called a planet.