Kapaernick

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Keith is right. Freedom means you don't have to stand. Just like freedom means you don't have to pray. The President clearly wants to be a dictator by telling all the NFL owners to fire players who won't stand and worship the government. This isn't Iran--it's America.

Freedom means you can fire workers who come to the workplace and protest if you want to. Freedom means Trump can call for it to be done.

IF employers require you to pray or salute the flag or worship the government and your job is not titled "flag worshipper" or "minister" or at the very least "actor," then the employer is in the wrong. Moreover, a sitting President telling people to force their employees to worship the government (and by extension him) is the beginning of fascism. How can you actually appreciate liberty while trying to make excuses for these guys?

 

[coloradoatheist]

You don't have the right to show up in your place of work in your company uniform and make a protest without getting fired.

Well yeah... but the team owners and the League itself isn't calling for anyone being fired. That'd be the guy with the real small hands.

And the owners can say we agree with Trump or they can agree with the players. They will have to make that decision.

People have been saying they aren't going to watch football or buy gear. Let's see if that holds up better than people saying they were going to move to Canada.

 

[dismal]

Freedom means you can fire workers who come to the workplace and protest if you want to. Freedom means Trump can call for it to be done.

IF employers require you to pray or salute the flag or worship the government and your job is not titled "flag worshipper" or "minister" or at the very least "actor," then the employer is in the wrong.

If you feel that way you should quit your job.

 

[Keith&Co.]

IF employers require you to pray or salute the flag or worship the government and your job is not titled "flag worshipper" or "minister" or at the very least "actor," then the employer is in the wrong.

If you feel that way you should quit your job.

Or force the employer to obey the law...

SCOTUS, a while back, decided that forcing students to participate in the pledge was wrong. It's either voluntary or meaningless. I think that'd be an applicable precedent for establishing whether or not someone can be forced to stand for the anthem, too.

The teams have contracts with the players. Someone keeps insisting that the player's contract only says play ball, so they can't be held in violation if they still play ball.

 

[dismal]

If you feel that way you should quit your job.

Or force the employer to obey the law...

SCOTUS, a while back, decided that forcing students to participate in the pledge was wrong. It's either voluntary or meaningless. I think that'd be an applicable precedent for establishing whether or not someone can be forced to stand for the anthem, too.

The teams have contracts with the players. Someone keeps insisting that the player's contract only says play ball, so they can't be held in violation if they still play ball.

In a public school. I think freedom allows a private organization to require the pledge.

I've bolded some words there. They are quite relevant to a discussion about freedom.

 

[coloradoatheist]

If you feel that way you should quit your job.

Or force the employer to obey the law...

SCOTUS, a while back, decided that forcing students to participate in the pledge was wrong. It's either voluntary or meaningless. I think that'd be an applicable precedent for establishing whether or not someone can be forced to stand for the anthem, too.

The teams have contracts with the players. Someone keeps insisting that the player's contract only says play ball, so they can't be held in violation if they still play ball.

I disagree. That's the government doing it in a governmental role. It's different for employment contracts. But they can also do what happened to Kapernick, not hire someone who will stand. I guess it will be who balks first.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

If you feel that way you should quit your job.

Or force the employer to obey the law...

SCOTUS, a while back, decided that forcing students to participate in the pledge was wrong. It's either voluntary or meaningless. I think that'd be an applicable precedent for establishing whether or not someone can be forced to stand for the anthem, too.

The teams have contracts with the players. Someone keeps insisting that the player's contract only says play ball, so they can't be held in violation if they still play ball.

I've read through the contract and maybe even quoted it previously. There is nothing in it that requires players to worship the flag. It isn't a coincidence, though, that conservolibertarians abandon their principles about worker contracts once worshipping right-wing authoritarianism is at issue.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well yeah... but the team owners and the League itself isn't calling for anyone being fired. That'd be the guy with the real small hands.

And the owners can say we agree with Trump or they can agree with the players. They will have to make that decision.

Under a rock? Owners have come out against Trump. Even Rex Ryan came out about Trump! The decision has already been made.

People have been saying they aren't going to watch football or buy gear.

Well I certainly recommend that for Browns fans.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

here is the original quote

Quote Originally Posted by AthenaAwakened View Post
Now others are doing the same. Not because they disrespect the country, but because they want their country to be better, to live up to the ideals and promise this country holds. They take a knee because they love this country. Even when this country doesn't love them back.

And this is largely why so much needed change does not happen at all, or nearly fast enough.

Sounds like you're saying protest stands in the way of progress.

I probably should have only quoted the last two sentences to make it clearer, because those are what I was taking issue with.

Probably because that is what it is saying. Might not be what you meant, but it is how it came out. The rest just sounds like evasion and distraction.

It is about one's love of country, right or wrong. On the otherhand, Kapaernick's so-called love is heedlessly PC, lazy, and defeatism. He widely supported and lavishly benefited from a highly corrupt organization, and too many think this feeble step is going to make up for that.

Anything but 100% conformity is unamerican.

 

[ZiprHead]

You don't have the right to show up in your place of work in your company uniform and make a protest without getting fired.

Well yeah... but the team owners and the League itself isn't calling for anyone being fired. That'd be the guy with the real small hands.

And who dodged the draft.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Or force the employer to obey the law...

SCOTUS, a while back, decided that forcing students to participate in the pledge was wrong. It's either voluntary or meaningless. I think that'd be an applicable precedent for establishing whether or not someone can be forced to stand for the anthem, too.

The teams have contracts with the players. Someone keeps insisting that the player's contract only says play ball, so they can't be held in violation if they still play ball.

I've read through the contract and maybe even quoted it previously. There is nothing in it that requires players to worship the flag. It isn't a coincidence, though, that conservolibertarians abandon their principles about worker contracts once worshipping right-wing authoritarianism is at issue.

It would depend on everything in the contract too. But a contract for work between two parties also means that working conditions such as not pissing of your customers can be enforced. So for you, the owners can have several options. they can terminate the contract and pay off any fines or penalties for it. They can bench the player because there isn't anything that says they have to be played. Or they can not hire in the first place. We'll see what happens.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[dismal]

I wonder how this "playing the national anthem is politics" grievance will work out for the left.

You guys better push that one hard.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I've read through the contract and maybe even quoted it previously. There is nothing in it that requires players to worship the flag. It isn't a coincidence, though, that conservolibertarians abandon their principles about worker contracts once worshipping right-wing authoritarianism is at issue.

It would depend on everything in the contract too.

I know that. There is nothing in it that can be interpreted directly or indirectly as being able to force the players to worship the flag.

But a contract for work between two parties also means that working conditions such as not pissing of your customers can be enforced. So for you, the owners can have several options. they can terminate the contract and pay off any fines or penalties for it. They can bench the player because there isn't anything that says they have to be played. Or they can not hire in the first place. We'll see what happens.

The owners aren't doing that, but your Would-be Dictator wants them to. Don't make excuses for him.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

View attachment 12574

Obama!

 

[coloradoatheist]

It would depend on everything in the contract too.

I know that. There is nothing in it that can be interpreted directly or indirectly as being able to force the players to worship the flag.

But a contract for work between two parties also means that working conditions such as not pissing of your customers can be enforced. So for you, the owners can have several options. they can terminate the contract and pay off any fines or penalties for it. They can bench the player because there isn't anything that says they have to be played. Or they can not hire in the first place. We'll see what happens.

The owners aren't doing that, but your Would-be Dictator wants them to. Don't make excuses for him.

Here is an argument that talks about the issues. Of course it would come down to a legal case and probably a long time for it to be decided.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/23/donald-trump-fired-roger-goodell-player-protest

It comes down to several clauses. Public Respect of the game is one. And the second is person actions that reflect negatively on the team, judged by the team.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Or force the employer to obey the law...

SCOTUS, a while back, decided that forcing students to participate in the pledge was wrong. It's either voluntary or meaningless. I think that'd be an applicable precedent for establishing whether or not someone can be forced to stand for the anthem, too.

The teams have contracts with the players. Someone keeps insisting that the player's contract only says play ball, so they can't be held in violation if they still play ball.

In a public school. I think freedom allows a private organization to require the pledge.

I've bolded some words there. They are quite relevant to a discussion about freedom.

If it's in their contracts... IF not, it's a little late to pretend that it's something they can be fired for.

 

[Keith&Co.]

And the second is person actions that reflect negatively on the team, judged by the team.

So, the team would risk going to court to prove that indulging in a constitutional right reflects negatively on the team, and the consequences if they lose that argument on the big stage...

 

[coloradoatheist]

And the second is person actions that reflect negatively on the team, judged by the team.

So, the team would risk going to court to prove that indulging in a constitutional right reflects negatively on the team, and the consequences if they lose that argument on the big stage...

They probably would go to court, but they might win. But they would have to make the decision on the PR battle and if they would win or lose. Right now it's probably not in their best interest to, but it's easy for us when it won't be us losing a billion dollar business either way.

 

[untermensche]

I wonder how this "playing the national anthem is politics" grievance will work out for the left.

You guys better push that one hard.

Yes we know it will not play well to mindless Archie Bunker types.

Those are the types that organizations like the Nazi's are built around.

Mindless devotion and a willingness to follow any order.