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A question for theists

ruby sparks said:

ruby sparks said:
Lion IRC said:
It's just a hypothetical right?
But yes, if you are likening heaven to a life raft with only a limited number of seats, then yes I would offer you mine.


Would you take it?
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Yes.

So, although it makes no sense to me whatsoever........ thank you very very very much. :)

Bonus points just for giving a straight answer.

Now, regarding whether it's definitely, actually hypothetical or not...........I think I covered that in a caveat in the OP.

Is that a scratchy sound I hear from on high? The sound of golden pen nib on purest parchment.......
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On second thoughts Lion, I'm afraid I can't believe you. That's not to denigrate your offer, and you can still keep the points and the bonus points, but....maybe you only gave that answer because you were assuming it wasn't actually going to happen, and....that sort of changes things, imo.

So, thanks again, but I'm afraid, no offence intended, that I can't believe you. Look, even Jesus didn't do it and god (allegedly) never asked him to. So, it's no disgrace.
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Don't ask hypothetical questions then accuse arguendo replies of dishonesty
That's bad faith dialogue.
...worse than what you said about 'angry atheists' in the Op
 
ruby sparks said:
braces_for_impact said:
I don't quite get what it is you're asking. You want a heaven-bound theist to allow you into heaven in their place? This sounds like one of those requests that are made of Christians that most Christians would reply "that's not how any of this works." Or perhaps I'm missing something.
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That's just a way of avoiding the question, imo.

I mean, who in Gork's name can claim to actually know how it normally works, eh? Never mind how it might work in a one-off situation? Short answer: no one, no human at any rate.
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Well, it's never stopped them from pretending to know before. That's what faith is really. Pretending to know the answer when you don't.
 
Lion IRC said:
Don't ask hypothetical questions then accuse arguendo replies of dishonesty
That's bad faith dialogue.
...worse than what you said about 'angry atheists' in the Op
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You never did the runaway trolley thought experiment? It's pretty much like that. The scenario is restricted. You have to say what you would do.

The kicker here is that there's a chance (who knows) that the scenario isn't hypothetical and you might find your answer coming back at you later. It'd be a bit like waking up in an actual junction box, with a runaway trolley outside.

As for not believing you, I'm just doing you the honour of being honest. I allow that I could be wrong. I just can't see it. You get the part that in the scenario, you suffer eternally?
 
Politesse said:
No, you can have my actual seat... :confused:

Are you suggesting that it only counts if we "actually" believe the same thing about the afterlife that the scenario implies? Because I don't think anyone actually does.

If there were such a scenario, though, I would give up my seat willingly, and indeed conceive of no other moral option, especially for a follower of Christ and his teachings. Realizing this was one of the major reasons I stopped believing in Hell, as a youth. It seemed absurd to me to think that I was more merciful than God, and concluded that theologians etc must have been confused about their cosmology.
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A scenario, if this is what you have in mind, where you are merely annihilated and do not suffer eternally (or possibly alternatively for 'ages') would be a different scenario. It would seem, to me, to be an easier one to agree a swop for. Personally, I wouldn't take it if I were you, but there you go.

That said, if heaven is pretty much like an endless church service, I might. But, I am rather assuming that paradise will subjectively feel like paradise. The scenario is essentially eternal pleasure versus eternal pain (or in your case, if I read you right, annihilation).
 
No, my answer was according to your rules. If all is as in your scenario (however implausible I may find this), you may have my seat. Because, as noted above, it would be immoral for anyone to do otherwise, and particularly hypocritical for a student of Christ to do otherwise, having been a beneficiary of similar generosity themselves.
 
Politesse said:
No, my answer was according to your rules. If all is as in your scenario (however implausible I may find this), you may have my seat. Because, as noted above, it would be immoral for anyone to do otherwise, and particularly hypocritical for a student of Christ to do otherwise, having been a beneficiary of similar generosity themselves.
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Immoral, schimmoral. Thanks. I think you're a fool, but there you go. Thanks again. Should it come to pass, I'll do my best to sprinkle some Lemon & Lime Perrier Water down during midmorning tiffin now and again. :)


@ Lion. If you clarify that your answer would be the same after accepting the scenario is not necessarily hypothetical, ie could really happen, I'll accept your answer. It just seemed to me your answer relied on it only being hypothetical. Maybe I was wrong about that.
 
I feel like the Perrier would just make the burning sulfur worse honestly, but do say "hi" to my mother, if you would; she'll be missing me.
 
Politesse said:
Are you suggesting that it only counts if we "actually" believe the same thing about the afterlife that the scenario implies? Because I don't think anyone actually does.
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Oh Im Prit.....ty sure some, possibly rather a lot, do believe the general heaven and hell set-up. Not everyone is as enlightened as you.
 
I'm pretty sure the sets of "believe in an eternal life in a literal heaven or hell" and "believe that an individual could give up their seat for another in said arrangement" do not show strong overlap.
 
Politesse said:
I feel like the Perrier would just make the burning sulfur worse...
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I'm having trouble imagining anything worse than being immersed in burning sulphur. I'm also not sure you'll have the time or inclination to think, 'at least I did the right thing', unless there are rest breaks, which to be honest there aren't in my scenario.
 
Well, that is another problem I have with the whole Hell scenario.

I don't think she'll blame me, though. She might have some sore feelings toward you. A good woman, but not above personal bias.
 
Politesse said:
I'm pretty sure the sets of "believe in an eternal life in a literal heaven or hell" and "believe that an individual could give up their seat for another in said arrangement" do not show strong overlap.
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Possibly not. That, I think, what you said there, was more or less braces_for_impact's point.
 
Politesse said:
Well, that is another problem I have with the whole Hell scenario.

I don't think she'll blame me, though. She might have some sore feelings toward you. A good woman, but not above personal bias.
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Sure. Let's just say that you having nonetheless caused her eternal suffering can be set aside, or that it isn't as weighty as the 'you feeling like you're doing the right thing' on the other side of the scales, and let's hope she can see it that way too, which by your description it sounds like she might be able to do.

If she's mad at me though, I'll have to remind her that I didn't make you do it, that you chose to do something that you knew would cause her to suffer, and, if necessary, if she persists in unfairly blaming me, I'll report her to the local constabulary for infringement of rule 136.2(b).
 
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Another thing poli. You'd be mad at god, surely? I mean the god in my scenario, not the one you believe in. In the scenario, you'd be like, 'god, WTF?'.

Assuming you had the capacity for any sort of joined up thinking and not just being fully restricted to the equivalent of an endless, 'aaaaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhh!!!!!'

I'm sure I need hardly remind you that eternity is 'a heck of a long time'.







PS if memory serves, I think that you have also previously not dissed the existence of elves. In some ways, you're the perfect victim for my questions, you wise and flexible thing you.
 
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I'm sure anger is one of the emotions that would pass through my soul over the centuries, not that it would do me all that much good, in that case.
 
"But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written." (Ex. 32:32)

Moses did propose this to God, and was told "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book." (v. 33)

Paul expressed the same sentiment: "I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel." (Rom 9:1-4)

I'm not sure I can attain to the sacrificial spirit of Moses and Paul, but I would hope to be like them. So yes, I would hope to offer you my seat, if this were possible.

Regards,
Lee
 
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