A question for theists

[ruby sparks]

"But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written." (Ex. 32:32)

Moses did propose this to God, and was told "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book." (v. 33)

Paul expressed the same sentiment: "I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel." (Rom 9:1-4)

I'm not sure I can attain to the sacrificial spirit of Moses and Paul, but I would hope to be like them. So yes, I would hope to offer you my seat, if this were possible.

Regards,
Lee

That you would even say that is very impressive.

I admit I'm having trouble believing you, or Lion, or poli, that you would, actually, do it if you found yourself in that situation and cognizant of what it would really entail. Perhaps the general, 'it's probably hypothetical and/or wouldn't happen, because that's not how it would work' caveat is playing some sort of key role here. I dunno. But if you want you can put my disbelief down as my problem not yours, obviously.

I'm still genuinely and uncynically impressed that you would even think of saying yes and I accept that you (and Lion and poli) are being totally honest and sincere and it's to all your credits.

Actually, I would be tempted to say yes too. I imagine myself as the former beggar Lazarus looking down on the thirsty, tortured rich man with my Lemon & Lime Perrier Water in hand. I think I would feel bad, and would like to do at least something to assuage both his terrible suffering and my lesser mental discomfort. It's not entirely unlike when I come across a homeless person sitting begging on the cold pavement. I tend to find some coins to throw in their paper cup. What I don't do, though, is give them my car and house keys, my bank account details, my clothes and so on. So I guess you could say that I feel a reasonable obligation, within certain limits, but that I am in the end ok with saying that I am 'entitled', if you like, to have my own interests at heart, ultimately. So, if I were asked my own OP question (I mean the revised one, where I am the former beggar Lazarus in heaven and the request is coming from the rich man in hell), I think I'd say, 'I am sorry that you are suffering, but it's too much to ask of me'.

That's why, even though I think sharing and reciprocity are good, I wouldn't (I hope) tend to slag off christians toooo much for not giving ALL they have to the poor and that sort of thing. Because, in a way, christians (perhaps including you, I don't know your circumstances) are 'being asked' a lesser version of the OP question day in and day out. It's just that the suffering person is still on the pavement. Now, I dunno if you have actually traded places with a homeless beggar, already answered a version of the OP question in real life as it were, but if you haven't, I would not fault you, because I think it's asking too much.

 

[ruby sparks]

I remember visiting Auschwitz a few years ago and hearing the story of the Catholic priest who volunteered to take the place of a Jewish prisoner in an extremely punitive and horrible version of solitary confinement (for some pathetically minor 'infringement' or other) even though he knew it would (and did) mean dying a painful death. And the camp guards, acting like some sort of malevolent and cruel gods, allowed it.

Now, in that case, perhaps the priest sincerely believed that, as for Jesus, the suffering, however awful, would be temporary and the eternal reward worth it, and as such he might have been said to have been exercising his 'rightful' long-term self interest, but nonetheless one has to say wow and be truly in awe of his willingness and incredible example (not least because he might reasonably have expected that he might get to the heaven he believed in anyway, without this extra sacrifice). Plus, I would doubt that all of his motivation came from his religious beliefs. A lot of it would have just been a rare humanity.

 

[ruby sparks]

I don't. You asked me to speculate.

In that case, I hope you can forgive me a small, wry atheist smile at the idea that you find my scenario implausible, and yet genuinely believe.....whatever it is you actually believe about god and such things in general.

What I mean is, I as an atheist see no good reason to think either of them any more or less implausible than the other. I accept that you do.

 

[ruby sparks]

For those who don't know about it, here's the wiki page for the Catholic priest who died at Auschwitz. I see I got some of the details wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe

I cannot but be deeply impressed.

 

[ruby sparks]

By the way, while I've got a sort of a captive audience of fools, can any one of you do-gooders send me £1000.00?

 

[Tigers!]

By the way, while I've got a sort of a captive audience of fools, can any one of you do-gooders send me £1000.00?

What would be the point? With your publicly expressed view that Christians/theists are not to be trusted you would assume that the notes were fraudulent.

 

[Learner]

]Actually, I would be tempted to say yes too. I imagine myself as the former beggar Lazarus looking down on the thirsty, tortured rich man with my Lemon & Lime Perrier Water in hand. I think I would feel bad, and would like to do at least something to assuage both his terrible suffering and my lesser mental discomfort. It's not entirely unlike when I come across a homeless person sitting begging on the cold pavement. I tend to find some coins to throw in their paper cup. What I don't do, though, is give them my car and house keys, my bank account details, my clothes and so on. So I guess you could say that I feel a reasonable obligation, within certain limits, but that I am in the end ok with saying that I am 'entitled', if you like, to have my own interests at heart, ultimately. So, if I were asked my own OP question (I mean the revised one, where I am the former beggar Lazarus in heaven and the request is coming from the rich man in hell), I think I'd say, 'I am sorry that you are suffering, but it's too much to ask of me'.

I acknowledge your perspective and interestingly just to mention, in the Lazarus "parable": the Richman does not want to exchange places but he does want to "warn" his brothers not to come there.

That's why, even though I think sharing and reciprocity are good, I wouldn't (I hope) tend to slag off christians toooo much for not giving ALL they have to the poor and that sort of thing. Because, in a way, christians (perhaps including you, I don't know your circumstances) are 'being asked' a lesser version of the OP question day in and day out. It's just that the suffering person is still on the pavement. Now, I dunno if you have actually traded places with a homeless beggar, already answered a version of the OP question in real life as it were, but if you haven't, I would not fault you, because I think it's asking too much.

The scenario is different here in relation to the having to decide between two options only: life and death or heaven and hell.

In relation to the homeless .We wouldn't give up everything (in this day and age all things to be paid for) especially when we have "Dependents" who rely on us, relatives, friends especially the elderly. This of course doesn't mean not giving "what one can" within their means.

A majority of people don't own their homes and to live in those places, you would have to give unto caesars what is his . (Getting more difficult each day as you know)

Which requires a working individual unfortunately.

 

[ruby sparks]

By the way, while I've got a sort of a captive audience of fools, can any one of you do-gooders send me £1000.00?

What would be the point? With your publicly expressed view that Christians/theists are not to be trusted you would assume that the notes were fraudulent.

Send them anyway. I could find that out after trying to spend them. I'm willing to take that chance.

Are you a christian, by the way, or a theist?

Just one thing, I would find it hard to believe that anyone giving the same answer to that particular question, the one I posed, would actually do it, be they Christian, atheist, tree-worshiper, second-hand car salesperson, a mod at this forum or Jesus (who as far as I know was never asked). And I did most recently clarify that I am having trouble believing them, not that they were being dishonest. Even lee only said that he hoped he would do it. And in any case, since it's a specific question, it's not the same as saying, "Christians/theists (or any group or individual) are not to be trusted". Imo, christians are at least as trustworthy and honest, on average, as anyone else, and probably above-averagely so, in my experience.

 

[ruby sparks]

]Actually, I would be tempted to say yes too. I imagine myself as the former beggar Lazarus looking down on the thirsty, tortured rich man with my Lemon & Lime Perrier Water in hand. I think I would feel bad, and would like to do at least something to assuage both his terrible suffering and my lesser mental discomfort. It's not entirely unlike when I come across a homeless person sitting begging on the cold pavement. I tend to find some coins to throw in their paper cup. What I don't do, though, is give them my car and house keys, my bank account details, my clothes and so on. So I guess you could say that I feel a reasonable obligation, within certain limits, but that I am in the end ok with saying that I am 'entitled', if you like, to have my own interests at heart, ultimately. So, if I were asked my own OP question (I mean the revised one, where I am the former beggar Lazarus in heaven and the request is coming from the rich man in hell), I think I'd say, 'I am sorry that you are suffering, but it's too much to ask of me'.

I acknowledge your perspective and interestingly just to mention, in the Lazarus "parable": the Richman does not want to exchange places but he does want to "warn" his brothers not to come there.

That's why, even though I think sharing and reciprocity are good, I wouldn't (I hope) tend to slag off christians toooo much for not giving ALL they have to the poor and that sort of thing. Because, in a way, christians (perhaps including you, I don't know your circumstances) are 'being asked' a lesser version of the OP question day in and day out. It's just that the suffering person is still on the pavement. Now, I dunno if you have actually traded places with a homeless beggar, already answered a version of the OP question in real life as it were, but if you haven't, I would not fault you, because I think it's asking too much.

The scenario is different here in relation to the having to decide between two options only: life and death or heaven and hell.

In relation to the homeless .We wouldn't give up everything (in this day and age all things to be paid for) especially when we have "Dependents" who rely on us, relatives, friends especially the elderly. This of course doesn't mean not giving "what one can" within their means.

A majority of people don't own their homes and to live in those places, you would have to give unto caesars what is his . (Getting more difficult each day as you know)

Which requires a working individual unfortunately.

I think your posts are, as always, reasonable and thoughtful, but I still can't help getting the feeling that you're dodging giving me your short, straight answer.

 

[Jobar]

Ruby's question reminds me of one I asked several years ago.

An interesting question about prayer
While I was working today, a long and involved train of thought resulted in this question:

Is it wrong/wicked/useless for a believer to pray for souls in Hell?

This isn't asking about souls that *might* be in hell; something along the lines of "Oh Lord, have mercy on all those suffering the flames of perdition, and relieve their pain."

It seems to me that this puts God in a real bind, because here is a human being who has more mercy than He does.

I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that some Jesuit spent years agonizing over this, and that there is some Papal edict which answers it definitively for Catholics, but I have no idea what that answer would be. Is it hubris, to feel that one may ask forgiveness for those whom God has already damned? Is it something that might qualify you for sainthood? Or is it a really deadly sin?

Of course most of us here consider it a nonsense question, but I'm still curious.

...

I think your OP is a bit of a strawman, Jobar. Catholics do have prayers for the dead but they are for the faithful dead. Here's a website:

http://catholicism.about.com/od/prayersforthedead/Prayers_for_the_Faithful_Departed.htm

I was thinking about indulgences- once sold by the Catholic Church, and still granted occasionally by the Pope. From there I was wondering why prayers from the faithful wouldn't have the same effect; and from that point I wondered, if prayer is supposed to be so efficacious, what would happen if someone prayed for a soul already damned? I mean, God is supposed to occasionally change His mind, according to the Bible. And remember the story of the Harrowing of Hell.

Not being Catholic myself, or having any close Catholic friends who might know the relevant dogmas, I decided to start this thread. And as I said, I'm not surprised to learn that there's already church teachings addressing it directly.

Still, it seems yet another way to point out the illogic and inconsistency of an omnibenevolent God who nevertheless keeps his own eternal and inescapable torture chamber, forever and ever, amen. No straw man at all, for believers.

 

[Lion IRC]

...Are there any Christians here, or other believers in Christian-type-stuff such as heaven or related concepts, who would be up for being baited by my fake sincerity and who would like to have a try at good faith dialogue just before I call them fools and dismiss their answers as lies?

No thanks

 

[ruby sparks]

...Are there any Christians here, or other believers in Christian-type-stuff such as heaven or related concepts, who would be up for being baited by my fake sincerity and who would like to have a try at good faith dialogue just before I call them fools and dismiss their answers as lies?

No thanks

I never accused anyone of lying.

The line about fools was banter. I get that my banter isn't always apparent, on any topic, to whatever reader, theist, atheist or whatever. I'm a bit cheeky sometimes. So shoot me.

Or hey, maybe it could even be said that it would be foolish, as in being unwise, to actually do the requested swop in my scenario. I myself might even agree that it would be (foolish). That's not the same as saying it wouldn't be awesomely, superhumanly generous.

 

[Tigers!]

By the way, while I've got a sort of a captive audience of fools, can any one of you do-gooders send me £1000.00?

What would be the point? With your publicly expressed view that Christians/theists are not to be trusted you would assume that the notes were fraudulent.

Send them anyway. I could find that out after trying to spend them. I'm willing to take that chance.

Glad you up for a chance but I'll save them for someone who will really appreciate them.

Are you a christian, by the way, or a theist?

Have a look at my profile

 

[Tigers!]

...Are there any Christians here, or other believers in Christian-type-stuff such as heaven or related concepts, who would be up for being baited by my fake sincerity and who would like to have a try at good faith dialogue just before I call them fools and dismiss their answers as lies?

No thanks

I never accused anyone of lying.

No you just said

And I did most recently clarify that I am having trouble believing them, not that they were being dishonest.

What is the practical difference between having trouble believing someone and thinking that they are dishonest?

 

[ruby sparks]

What is the practical difference between having trouble believing someone and thinking that they are dishonest?

I think you are for some reason taking a very selective approach to what I have said and ignoring many things that I have added by way of clarification.

But, just to answer your specific point, it is entirely possible to accept that someone has given an honest answer while still having trouble believing that they would actually enact what they honestly believe or at least hope they might do if faced with the actual situation. That is why I did not accuse anyone of lying and why there is a difference.

Here also is what I said 1 page back:

I admit I'm having trouble believing you, or Lion, or poli, that you would, actually, do it if you found yourself in that situation and cognizant of what it would really entail.

I openly accepted that the 'having trouble believing' could be put down to my potential shortcomings, not to any fault in the other person. I also explicitly stated that I could be wrong.

Hope that helps clarify.

 

[Wiploc]

Maybe I just did something that god for some unknown (to us) reason can't forgive unless there's a volunteer.

That's crazy talk. Seriously, that makes no sense. It would be like substitutionary atonement. It makes no more sense than the Crucifixion itself.

 

[Wiploc]

Speaking in behalf of the crabby atheist union I can't help wondering why it would be necessary for someone to give up their berth in paradise if you were to execute a full "repent and convert beforehand." It sounds like you'd have all the makings of your own berth and wouldn't need to bum one off someone else.

There are exactly 144,000 berths. If that doesn't seem right or fair to you, take it up with Jehovah.

 

[Underseer]

If you're going to ask a question of theists, wouldn't it be better to do that, uhm, someplace other than an atheist message board?

 

[Tigers!]

If you're going to ask a question of theists, wouldn't it be better to do that, uhm, someplace other than an atheist message board?

No, we have to live somewhere too.

 

[Underseer]

If you're going to ask a question of theists, wouldn't it be better to do that, uhm, someplace other than an atheist message board?

No, we have to live somewhere too.

Huh?

What's the point of asking a question of theists at a place that atheists hang out? Wouldn't it make more sense to go to a place that theists hang out if you really want to know how theists would answer that question? What few theists we have here are too small in number to count as a representative sample.