A question for theists

[ruby sparks]

Are there any christians here, or other believers in christian-type-stuff such as heaven or related concepts, who would be up for giving me their supposed permanent berth in supposed paradise instead of them?

Hypothetically assume I'll do a full repent and convert beforehand and that god in his grace and wisdom, if he exists, would or might accept your agreement on the basis that he's ultra-impressed because it's an even greater sacrifice than he made Jesus do.

Think carefully before answering. The god you believe in might be watching and listening, and depending on what mood he's in when he gets around to reading your posts, he might just write down your consent using indelible holy ink or screenshot it onto his heavenly hard drive and he also might possibly consider going along with it, no matter how sure you might feel that he wouldn't. For one thing, he's almost certain to have a warped sense of humour (see: platypuses, River Blindness, the alleged temptation of abraham, Donald Trump, talking snakes, etc) and may be a tad more unpredictable than you assume.

If you personally aren't up for it, maybe you know someone who might be, and could give me their facebook details or whatever. I understand from reading another recent thread that it might be getting harder and harder these days to find believers, so all I ask is that you might do your best, for me.

No spoof offers or answers of any sort from non-theists, please, especially not you angry atheist types. Quite honestly I am fed up listening to you. You're always so crabby and whining on this general topic. It's boring after a while. Sorry, no personal offence intended. Go in peace.....to a different thread maybe. Also, I have baggsied first in the queue.

So, short answers if possible. Deal, or no deal?

Thanks in advance. I know you guys won't let me down. Just don't knock each other over trying to get to the front.

 

[Atheos]

Speaking in behalf of the crabby atheist union I can't help wondering why it would be necessary for someone to give up their berth in paradise if you were to execute a full "repent and convert beforehand." It sounds like you'd have all the makings of your own berth and wouldn't need to bum one off someone else.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Are there any christians here, or other believers in christian-type-stuff such as heaven, who would be up for giving me their supposed permanent berth in paradise instead of them?

MAN, I got yelled at for that stance, as a believer.
REALLY pissed off the ultra-faithful.

 

[ruby sparks]

Speaking in behalf of the crabby atheist union I can't help wondering why it would be necessary for someone to give up their berth in paradise if you were to execute a full "repent and convert beforehand." It sounds like you'd have all the makings of your own berth and wouldn't need to bum one off someone else.

Maybe I just did something that god for some unknown (to us) reason can't forgive unless there's a volunteer. In a way, it doesn't really matter. Let's just say I need a volunteer. Think of it as Jesus-type sacrifice for my sins or something, but permanent in this case, and that god might hypothetically allow it, again for whatever reason.

 

[Learner]

Are there any christians here, or other believers in christian-type-stuff such as heaven or related concepts, who would be up for giving me their supposed permanent berth in supposed paradise instead of them?

Hypothetically assume I'll do a full repent and convert beforehand and that god in his grace and wisdom, if he exists, would or might accept your agreement on the basis that he's ultra-impressed because it's an even greater sacrifice than he made Jesus do.

Think carefully before answering. The god you believe in might be watching and listening, and depending on what mood he's in when he gets around to reading your posts, he might just write down your consent using indelible holy ink or screenshot it onto his heavenly hard drive and he also might possibly consider going along with it, no matter how sure you might feel that he wouldn't. For one thing, he's almost certain to have a warped sense of humour (see: platypuses, River Blindness, the alleged temptation of abraham, Donald Trump, talking snakes, etc) and may be a tad more unpredictable than you assume.


If you personally aren't up for it, maybe you know someone who might be, and could give me their facebook details or whatever. I understand from reading another recent thread that it might be getting harder and harder these days to find believers, so all I ask is that you might do your best, for me.

No spoof offers or answers of any sort from non-theists, please, especially not you angry atheist types. Quite honestly I am fed up listening to you. You're always so crabby and whining on this general topic. It's boring after a while. Sorry, no personal offence intended. Go in peace.....to a different thread maybe. Also, I have baggsied first in the queue.

So, short answers if possible. Deal, or no deal?

Thanks in advance. I know you guys won't let me down. Just don't knock each other over trying to get to the front.

Not sure whether Christians or other Christian-type-stuff would take serious enough by your phrasing of the questions (in coloured text) to answer unless you don't mind being replied back in the same-like manner. I may get back to you on that.

 

[ruby sparks]

Not sure whether Christians or other Christian-type-stuff would take serious enough by your phrasing of the questions (in coloured text) to answer unless you don't mind being replied back in the same-like manner. I may get back to you on that.

No prob. I'll take that as a non-answer in the meantime. Now, it's none of my business really, and to be honest I don't mind who I get to volunteer, but as first to arrive, you do realise you may be passing up an opportunity that the next person might take advantage of. It's still not too late at this point. Just saying.

And to any atheists reading this post, just so you know, I can guess what some of you lazy freeloaders are probably thinking, but I'm not opening up the potential arrangement to a wider clientelle. If you want to get the same deal, start your own request thread. Yes, I know I'm looking after my own interests. But you see, I'm not a christian. Yet.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I don't quite get what it is you're asking. You want a heaven-bound theist to allow you into heaven in their place? This sounds like one of those requests that are made of Christians that most Christians would reply "that's not how any of this works." Or perhaps I'm missing something.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I understood it as a Sydney Carton scheme -- the Christer seems to freeze him/herself out of heaven by an act of sacrifice that metaphorically resembles that of Jeebus -- then finds that -- Wait? Do you mean me? Realllly? -- Jeebus is offering a special seat right next to him & his dad. I think you should make it more dangerous -- the berth in heaven has to come with the original ticket holder's soul. That would be a display of faith. Pilgrim, are you so sure of the goodness of God that you will go soulless into the void, relying strictly on the arms of Jeebus? If this caught on, the freethinkers could amass collections of souls, get them lacquered like Precious Moments and keep them on knick-knack shelves. Finally sell them at garage sales. Oh, wait -- this shit is all imaginary. There's nothing to lacquer and the Christers haven't risked anything. We're back to square one, them with their Sunday brunch at KFC and their boring crazy book and me sleeping in Sundays with my crazy-funny atheist books.

 

[Politesse]

I'm confused as to why someone who has experienced a conversion of the heart would need such a sacrifice. You are a denizen of the dominion of God from that moment onward, certainly? Your eternal home in the cosmos is your birthright as a human being, only you can isolate yourself from it, and that temporarily.

 

[Atheos]

Speaking in behalf of the crabby atheist union I can't help wondering why it would be necessary for someone to give up their berth in paradise if you were to execute a full "repent and convert beforehand." It sounds like you'd have all the makings of your own berth and wouldn't need to bum one off someone else.

Maybe I just did something that god for some unknown (to us) reason can't forgive unless there's a volunteer. In a way, it doesn't really matter. Let's just say I need a volunteer. Think of it as Jesus-type sacrifice for my sins or something, but permanent in this case, and that god might hypothetically allow it, again for whatever reason.

What I'm getting hung up on in our piece of this discussion is the part where you "repent and convert." If you did that then according to most christian trains of thought you'd already be destined for paradise. You wouldn't need anyone else to swap places with you.

Personally I think the challenge would be much more interesting if you were to continue in your life as an impenitent non-believer and someone volunteered to trade a berth in paradise so you could enjoy it in their stead. That would certainly be a greater sacrifice by several orders of magnitude than the one allegedly made by Jesus. Not only would this hypothetical volunteer be offering the goods with absolutely no strings attached (unlike Jeebus), but their sacrifice would be eternal, not just a 36 hour (well, 49 if you count the crucifition) ordeal.

 

[Lion IRC]

It's just a hypothetical right?
But yes, if you are likening heaven to a life raft with only a limited number of seats, then yes I would offer you mine.


Would you take it?

 

[ruby sparks]

It's just a hypothetical right?
But yes, if you are likening heaven to a life raft with only a limited number of seats, then yes I would offer you mine.


Would you take it?

Yes.

So, although it makes no sense to me whatsoever........ thank you very very very much.

Bonus points just for giving a straight answer.

Now, regarding whether it's definitely, actually hypothetical or not...........I think I covered that in a caveat in the OP.

Is that a scratchy sound I hear from on high? The sound of golden pen nib on purest parchment.......

 

[Politesse]

So you'll take the seat when offered to you by a person, but not from a God?

 

[ruby sparks]

So you'll take the seat when offered to you by a person, but not from a God?

God wasn't offering me a ticket in the scenario so that wasn't an option. It was a straight swop scenario.

Note: It could have equally been set up that I am already in hell (or somewhere that I'm suffering) at the outset and trying to do a swop from there. That might have been a better scenario, now that I think about it.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So you'll take the seat when offered to you by a person, but not from a God?

If God offered me his seat, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I'd love to be an omnipotent dictator. The universe-wide synchronized dance routines you all do for my benefit would please me immensely.

 

[ruby sparks]

Speaking in behalf of the crabby atheist union I can't help wondering why it would be necessary for someone to give up their berth in paradise if you were to execute a full "repent and convert beforehand." It sounds like you'd have all the makings of your own berth and wouldn't need to bum one off someone else.

Maybe I just did something that god for some unknown (to us) reason can't forgive unless there's a volunteer. In a way, it doesn't really matter. Let's just say I need a volunteer. Think of it as Jesus-type sacrifice for my sins or something, but permanent in this case, and that god might hypothetically allow it, again for whatever reason.

What I'm getting hung up on in our piece of this discussion is the part where you "repent and convert." If you did that then according to most christian trains of thought you'd already be destined for paradise. You wouldn't need anyone else to swap places with you.

Personally I think the challenge would be much more interesting if you were to continue in your life as an impenitent non-believer and someone volunteered to trade a berth in paradise so you could enjoy it in their stead. That would certainly be a greater sacrifice by several orders of magnitude than the one allegedly made by Jesus. Not only would this hypothetical volunteer be offering the goods with absolutely no strings attached (unlike Jeebus), but their sacrifice would be eternal, not just a 36 hour (well, 49 if you count the crucifition) ordeal.

My swop scenario was specifically permanent though.

Point taken about the converting and repenting bit. It's probably neater if I'm already in...wherever the suffering is after death......before the swop. That said, it is arguably ultimately irrelevant, to the person offering me the swop.

 

[Politesse]

Then I suppose you can have my seat.

I am not too concerned about this hypothetical scenario, given that the system it supposes seems quite illogical.

 

[ruby sparks]

It's just a hypothetical right?
But yes, if you are likening heaven to a life raft with only a limited number of seats, then yes I would offer you mine.


Would you take it?

On second thoughts Lion, I'm afraid I can't believe you. That's not to denigrate your offer, and you can still keep the points and the bonus points, but....maybe you only gave that answer because you were assuming it wasn't actually going to happen, and....that sort of changes things, imo.

So, thanks again, but I'm afraid, no offence intended, that I can't believe you. Look, even Jesus didn't do it and god (allegedly) never asked him to. So, it's no disgrace.

- - - Updated - - -

Then I suppose you can have my seat.

I am not too concerned about this hypothetical scenario, given that the system it supposes seems quite illogical.

Not your actual seat. Gotcha. See my comments to Lion. Sorry.

 

[Politesse]

No, you can have my actual seat...

Are you suggesting that it only counts if we "actually" believe the same thing about the afterlife that the scenario implies? Because I don't think anyone actually does.

If there were such a scenario, though, I would give up my seat willingly, and indeed conceive of no other moral option, especially for a follower of Christ and his teachings. Realizing this was one of the major reasons I stopped believing in Hell, as a youth. It seemed absurd to me to think that I was more merciful than God, and concluded that theologians etc must have been confused about their cosmology.

 

[ruby sparks]

I don't quite get what it is you're asking. You want a heaven-bound theist to allow you into heaven in their place? This sounds like one of those requests that are made of Christians that most Christians would reply "that's not how any of this works." Or perhaps I'm missing something.

That's just a way of avoiding the question, imo.

I mean, who in Gork's name can claim to actually know how it normally works, eh? Never mind how it might work in a one-off situation? Short answer: no one, no human at any rate.