A question for theists

[Politesse]

If you're going to ask a question of theists, wouldn't it be better to do that, uhm, someplace other than an atheist message board?

No, we have to live somewhere too.

Huh?

What's the point of asking a question of theists at a place that atheists hang out? Wouldn't it make more sense to go to a place that theists hang out if you really want to know how theists would answer that question? What few theists we have here are too small in number to count as a representative sample.

On the other hand, we're especially friendly and patient ones. A soul is at stake!

 

[Wiploc]

What few theists we have here are too small in number to count as a representative sample.

So you're thinking the thread should be called, "A question for unrepresentative theists"?

 

[Learner]

Give it time , there maybe a few who'll change their minds and convert (Underseer seems a good prospect) adding to the low numbers.

 

[Lion IRC]

...What few theists we have here are too small in number to count as a representative sample.

Representative of what?
100% of theists are theists

 

[OLDMAN]

Give it time , there maybe a few who'll change their minds and convert (Underseer seems a good prospect) adding to the low numbers.

Get your ego out of the way. Why would an all powerful god need your help? If he existed he could convert everyone in a second...then we can decide if we like him enough to follow him. Satan obviously didn't, which means he still had free will after having real proof of god. But I understand how it makes you feel important to run around spreading the word even though it really isn't necessary.

 

[Kharakov]

...What few theists we have here are too small in number to count as a representative sample.

Representative of what?
100% of theists are theists

100% of theists, except maybe one in the whole universe, one who must also believe in nature, are liars or fools.

 

[jab]

Are there any christians here, or other believers in christian-type-stuff such as heaven or related concepts, who would be up for giving me their supposed permanent berth in supposed paradise instead of them?

Hypothetically assume I'll do a full repent and convert beforehand and that god in his grace and wisdom, if he exists, would or might accept your agreement on the basis that he's ultra-impressed because it's an even greater sacrifice than he made Jesus do.

Think carefully before answering. The god you believe in might be watching and listening, and depending on what mood he's in when he gets around to reading your posts, he might just write down your consent using indelible holy ink or screenshot it onto his heavenly hard drive and he also might possibly consider going along with it, no matter how sure you might feel that he wouldn't. For one thing, he's almost certain to have a warped sense of humour (see: platypuses, River Blindness, the alleged temptation of abraham, Donald Trump, talking snakes, etc) and may be a tad more unpredictable than you assume.

If you personally aren't up for it, maybe you know someone who might be, and could give me their facebook details or whatever. I understand from reading another recent thread that it might be getting harder and harder these days to find believers, so all I ask is that you might do your best, for me.

No spoof offers or answers of any sort from non-theists, please, especially not you angry atheist types. Quite honestly I am fed up listening to you. You're always so crabby and whining on this general topic. It's boring after a while. Sorry, no personal offence intended. Go in peace.....to a different thread maybe. Also, I have baggsied first in the queue.

So, short answers if possible. Deal, or no deal?

Thanks in advance. I know you guys won't let me down. Just don't knock each other over trying to get to the front.

When I was a fundamentalist Christian, I certainly wouldn't have taken up your challenge. There's no precedent for it in the Bible, no such procedure contemplated. Furthermore, I would not be sure that I had a place in Heaven, and that you didn't (according the the brand of Christianity I belonged to). Such things were God's business and unknowable to humans. (I did not belong to a branch of Christianity which assured believers that they could know for sure sure sure that they were saved.
To assume that we we had foreknowledge of God's individual judgments would be prideful and an arrogating unto our selves of God-like qualities, and therefore sinful.
To wait till we had actual received our judgement to make the offer would perhaps be okay, but it would run the risk of questioning goods will and refusing his love for us--likely to get us booted to Hell for a sin, and nothing for you. The most I would have promised was to beg God for mercy for you.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Are there any christians here, or other believers in christian-type-stuff such as heaven or related concepts, who would be up for giving me their supposed permanent berth in supposed paradise instead of them?

Hypothetically assume I'll do a full repent and convert beforehand and that god in his grace and wisdom, if he exists, would or might accept your agreement on the basis that he's ultra-impressed because it's an even greater sacrifice than he made Jesus do.

Think carefully before answering. The god you believe in might be watching and listening, and depending on what mood he's in when he gets around to reading your posts, he might just write down your consent using indelible holy ink or screenshot it onto his heavenly hard drive and he also might possibly consider going along with it, no matter how sure you might feel that he wouldn't. For one thing, he's almost certain to have a warped sense of humour (see: platypuses, River Blindness, the alleged temptation of abraham, Donald Trump, talking snakes, etc) and may be a tad more unpredictable than you assume.

If you personally aren't up for it, maybe you know someone who might be, and could give me their facebook details or whatever. I understand from reading another recent thread that it might be getting harder and harder these days to find believers, so all I ask is that you might do your best, for me.

No spoof offers or answers of any sort from non-theists, please, especially not you angry atheist types. Quite honestly I am fed up listening to you. You're always so crabby and whining on this general topic. It's boring after a while. Sorry, no personal offence intended. Go in peace.....to a different thread maybe. Also, I have baggsied first in the queue.

So, short answers if possible. Deal, or no deal?

Thanks in advance. I know you guys won't let me down. Just don't knock each other over trying to get to the front.

When I was a fundamentalist Christian, I certainly wouldn't have taken up your challenge. There's no precedent for it in the Bible, no such procedure contemplated. Furthermore, I would not be sure that I had a place in Heaven, and that you didn't (according the the brand of Christianity I belonged to). Such things were God's business and unknowable to humans. (I did not belong to a branch of Christianity which assured believers that they could know for sure sure sure that they were saved.
To assume that we we had foreknowledge of God's individual judgments would be prideful and an arrogating unto our selves of God-like qualities, and therefore sinful.
To wait till we had actual received our judgement to make the offer would perhaps be okay, but it would run the risk of questioning goods will and refusing his love for us--likely to get us booted to Hell for a sin, and nothing for you. The most I would have promised was to beg God for mercy for you.

How does a fundamentalist or anyone know that some things are unknowable? That actually sounds like, 'when you don't know what you don't know you think you know.'

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Politesse]

Are there any christians here, or other believers in christian-type-stuff such as heaven or related concepts, who would be up for giving me their supposed permanent berth in supposed paradise instead of them?

Hypothetically assume I'll do a full repent and convert beforehand and that god in his grace and wisdom, if he exists, would or might accept your agreement on the basis that he's ultra-impressed because it's an even greater sacrifice than he made Jesus do.

Think carefully before answering. The god you believe in might be watching and listening, and depending on what mood he's in when he gets around to reading your posts, he might just write down your consent using indelible holy ink or screenshot it onto his heavenly hard drive and he also might possibly consider going along with it, no matter how sure you might feel that he wouldn't. For one thing, he's almost certain to have a warped sense of humour (see: platypuses, River Blindness, the alleged temptation of abraham, Donald Trump, talking snakes, etc) and may be a tad more unpredictable than you assume.

If you personally aren't up for it, maybe you know someone who might be, and could give me their facebook details or whatever. I understand from reading another recent thread that it might be getting harder and harder these days to find believers, so all I ask is that you might do your best, for me.

No spoof offers or answers of any sort from non-theists, please, especially not you angry atheist types. Quite honestly I am fed up listening to you. You're always so crabby and whining on this general topic. It's boring after a while. Sorry, no personal offence intended. Go in peace.....to a different thread maybe. Also, I have baggsied first in the queue.

So, short answers if possible. Deal, or no deal?

Thanks in advance. I know you guys won't let me down. Just don't knock each other over trying to get to the front.

When I was a fundamentalist Christian, I certainly wouldn't have taken up your challenge. There's no precedent for it in the Bible, no such procedure contemplated. Furthermore, I would not be sure that I had a place in Heaven, and that you didn't (according the the brand of Christianity I belonged to). Such things were God's business and unknowable to humans. (I did not belong to a branch of Christianity which assured believers that they could know for sure sure sure that they were saved.
To assume that we we had foreknowledge of God's individual judgments would be prideful and an arrogating unto our selves of God-like qualities, and therefore sinful.
To wait till we had actual received our judgement to make the offer would perhaps be okay, but it would run the risk of questioning goods will and refusing his love for us--likely to get us booted to Hell for a sin, and nothing for you. The most I would have promised was to beg God for mercy for you.

How does a fundamentalist or anyone know that some things are unknowable? That actually sounds like, 'when you don't know what you don't know you think you know.'

Hope that makes sense.

Because Fundamentalists believe all of their beliefs "come from the Bible", which comes from God, who does know.

 

[jab]

How does a fundamentalist or anyone know that some things are unknowable? That actually sounds like, 'when you don't know what you don't know you think you know.'

Hope that makes sense.

Because Fundamentalists believe all of their beliefs "come from the Bible", which comes from God, who does know.

Exactly, and we relied on the King James translation, in which Romans 11:33 reads "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"

 

[Learner]

Give it time , there maybe a few who'll change their minds and convert (Underseer seems a good prospect) adding to the low numbers.

Get your ego out of the way. Why would an all powerful god need your help? If he existed he could convert everyone in a second...then we can decide if we like him enough to follow him. Satan obviously didn't, which means he still had free will after having real proof of god. But I understand how it makes you feel important to run around spreading the word even though it really isn't necessary.

It was just banter regarding the low numbers post. I wasn't having that intention to be the one to convert our forum friend.

Yes Satan having proof that God exists (with free will) became quite upset when God said that we (man) were above the angels - the reason why satan is that way ... a better explanation by the theology.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes Satan having proof that God exists (with free will) became quite upset when God said that we (man) were above the angels - the reason why satan is that way ... a better explanation by the theology.

It's likely that this reason is because Satan is an idiot. Remember that this is a guy who picked a fight with an omnipotent dude. He wasn't the brightest star in the heavens.

 

[Learner]

It's likely that this reason is because Satan is an idiot. Remember that this is a guy who picked a fight with an omnipotent dude. He wasn't the brightest star in the heavens.

Very good point worth noting imo. Similar thoughts from various discussions and talks I was intrigued with by all sorts of people: "Why pick a fight you're going to lose in the end?"

One is the idea that ; Satan has some considerable power and knowledge or ... that there's something he knows (or think he knows) that can cause an upset ...and change the course to particular phrophesies : the understanding I get (so far picked up) from this angle is: trying to use Gods promises and word that HE won't change or take back (for lack of better explanation) which has a great significance on several levels ..not quite turning out as God planned. Its an interesting POV from my learner theology perspective .

 

[Malintent]

Are you suggesting that it only counts if we "actually" believe the same thing about the afterlife that the scenario implies? Because I don't think anyone actually does.

Oh Im Prit.....ty sure some, possibly rather a lot, do believe the general heaven and hell set-up. Not everyone is as enlightened as you.

I'm sure too... however, I am of the opinion.. no, scratch that.... I have observed that the frequency by which people ACTUALLY BELIEVE what they profess, in terms of afterlife, god, and all that mess, is about equal to the number of flat-Earthers... or Moon landing conspiracy theorists.

80% of Americans SAY they believe in god and put on a good SHOW of it for their tribe of folks that will potentially turn on them in a second if they don't. In nearly every single conversation I have had with a Jesus fan, it becomes quickly clear that they don't really believe a single thing they say about it. They FEAR being PERCIEVED as not believing as much as they actually do.

Not only do I not believe in Jesus-god, I also do not believe in Christians.. .as in, they don't really exist (any more so than Extraterrestrials exist on Earth, just because I say I am one).

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's likely that this reason is because Satan is an idiot. Remember that this is a guy who picked a fight with an omnipotent dude. He wasn't the brightest star in the heavens.

Very good point worth noting imo. Similar thoughts from various discussions and talks I was intrigued with by all sorts of people: "Why pick a fight you're going to lose in the end?"

One is the idea that ; Satan has some considerable power and knowledge or ... that there's something he knows (or think he knows) that can cause an upset ...and change the course to particular phrophesies : the understanding I get (so far picked up) from this angle is: trying to use Gods promises and word that HE won't change or take back (for lack of better explanation) which has a great significance on several levels ..not quite turning out as God planned. Its an interesting POV from my learner theology perspective .

Which is still just as stupid. God is omniscient as well, so everything turns out exactly as he'd planned and he'd have taken all of Satan's future machinations into account when delivering his initial promises. It's a fight which makes Bambi vs Godzilla look like an equal matchup.

I really don't know why people worry so much about Satan. The boy is dumb.

 

[Politesse]

A lot of dangerous people are dumb.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

A lot of dangerous people are dumb.

But one of the key concerns about Satan is that he's going to trick you or outwit you or something like that into damning your soul to Hell. However, we're talking about a man who would clearly lose a battle of wits with an eggplant.

It's like if Lex Luthor's plots against Superman ignored using kryptonite and instead involved running up and whacking him over the head with a stick. You wouldn't refer to him as "The Greatest Criminal Mind in History", but instead he'd be "That Dumb Guy Nobody Needs to Worry About".

 

[Politesse]

I would be pretty worried about someone who was running around assaulting people with clubs, actually. Causing serious injury with a stick does not require great intelligence.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I would be pretty worried about someone who was running around assaulting people with clubs, actually. Causing serious injury with a stick does not require great intelligence.

Not when the person he's assaulting is invincible. Then it does nothing.

This is why reading complete sentences is helpful in understanding the meaning of the sentence as opposed to taking half of the sentence out of context with the full thing and then pretending that you're responding to the sentence.

 

[Politesse]

Not when the person he's assaulting is invincible. Then it does nothing.

Since when are humans "invincible"? Satan doesn't attack God directly, in the mythos, not even in the End Times. He attacks God's loved ones. It is more a "kidnap, rape, and torture Lois Lane" strategy.