Stephon Clark killed by Sacramento police - he was in his own family's backyard

[Toni]

Jesus fucking christ. They handcuffed his corpse?

This is so tragic and so systemically wrong. And so vile.

Clearly showing you don't understand what's going on.

Only doctors pronounce death barring damage obviously incompatible with life.

Thus the cops have to consider the suspect alive. They're going to cuff.

(Note that in a triage situation cops may tag someone as "dead"--this is not a declaration of death. Rather, it is an analysis that when medical resources are overstretched that they should be directed towards the patients with a greater chance of being saved. Barring a sudden influx of a bunch of doctors a black tag is a death sentence, though.)

Clearly you don't understand what was going on.

But the rest of us do understand your posts and know exactly what is going on with you.

 

[Toni]

Handcuffing his corpse is ridiculous, unless they thought he was still alive?

I went ahead and read the full CNN article you linked to. Your quote above leaves out some pertinent details claimed by the police, which if true changes my view of this a little.



CNN quotes his brother saying:



CNN article then says they fired 20 times. 20 times????? That's a bit nuts. Why are they not carrying tasers?

More training and better equipment definitely would have helped here.

1) In other words, the cops mistook a metal bar for a gun in the dark. No surprise--the portion of a handgun outside one's grip has a substantial resemblance to a metal bar. Note, also, that even if they had correctly identified the item they would shoot if he got too close.

2) 20 shots isn't unreasonable. Two cops, less than 3 seconds of fire. It was dark, they aren't going to be seeing exactly what happens, all they can go on is whether the guy goes down and then human reaction time still adds most of a second to this.

3) Tasers aren't for use in a situation like this. Against a guy without a ranged weapon they can be used with planning but they have to agree that one has the taser, one has the gun as backup. That's not going to happen in a pursuit situation.

4) Note the brother admits the dead guy was a criminal. They always say they've turned around, they almost never actually have.

- - - Updated - - -

...Yeah, I watched the damn video, even though I rarely do these days. A few things stand out...

The big one is that the police do not identify themselves until after they've shot him. The problem is that he's in a dark environment, and they show up shining a flashlight directly at him - which means he also could not see them. As far as he knows, it's just some unknown people shouting commands at him for no reason.

Doesn't justify advancing on the cops.

Clearly you are not at all informed.

The man the police shot to death had a white cell phone in his hand. Not a weapon, not a tool. A cell phone.

What were they afraid of? Having their photograph taken?

How on earth was he supposed to know that police officers were the ones shouting at him? They gave him what? 4 seconds before firing 20 shots at him?????? Really?

 

[RavenSky]

1) In other words, the cops mistook a metal bar for a gun in the dark. No surprise--the portion of a handgun outside one's grip has a substantial resemblance to a metal bar.

He was NOT carrying a "metal bar"

2) 20 shots isn't unreasonable. Two cops, less than 3 seconds of fire. It was dark, they aren't going to be seeing exactly what happens, all they can go on is whether the guy goes down and then human reaction time still adds most of a second to this.

It is beyond unreasonable, especially when faced with an unarmed man.

They took Nikolas Cruz in alive even though he was a known verified armed killer

3) Tasers aren't for use in a situation like this. Against a guy without a ranged weapon they can be used with planning but they have to agree that one has the taser, one has the gun as backup. That's not going to happen in a pursuit situation.

Again, I call major horseshit. See Nikolas Cruz, Dylann Roof, even those Bundy Ranch assholes.

 

[James Brown]

Like the meme says, Cops are free to shoot whomever they want, whenever they want, without consequence. But we need the 2nd Amendment in case the government gets tyrannical.

 

[marc]

Like the meme says, Cops are free to shoot whomever they want, whenever they want, without consequence. But we need the 2nd Amendment in case the government gets tyrannical.

And if every citizen did own a gun, then the cops can easily say anyone they shoot was armed, and therefor a threat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Jesus fucking christ. They handcuffed his corpse?

This is so tragic and so systemically wrong. And so vile.

Clearly showing you don't understand what's going on.

Only doctors pronounce death barring damage obviously incompatible with life.

Thus the cops have to consider the suspect alive. They're going to cuff.

(Note that in a triage situation cops may tag someone as "dead"--this is not a declaration of death. Rather, it is an analysis that when medical resources are overstretched that they should be directed towards the patients with a greater chance of being saved. Barring a sudden influx of a bunch of doctors a black tag is a death sentence, though.)

Clearly you don't understand what was going on.

But the rest of us do understand your posts and know exactly what is going on with you.

Calling me wrong but then using a personal attack rather than actually rebutting it shows I'm actually right.

- - - Updated - - -

1) In other words, the cops mistook a metal bar for a gun in the dark. No surprise--the portion of a handgun outside one's grip has a substantial resemblance to a metal bar. Note, also, that even if they had correctly identified the item they would shoot if he got too close.

2) 20 shots isn't unreasonable. Two cops, less than 3 seconds of fire. It was dark, they aren't going to be seeing exactly what happens, all they can go on is whether the guy goes down and then human reaction time still adds most of a second to this.

3) Tasers aren't for use in a situation like this. Against a guy without a ranged weapon they can be used with planning but they have to agree that one has the taser, one has the gun as backup. That's not going to happen in a pursuit situation.

4) Note the brother admits the dead guy was a criminal. They always say they've turned around, they almost never actually have.

- - - Updated - - -



Doesn't justify advancing on the cops.

Clearly you are not at all informed.

The man the police shot to death had a white cell phone in his hand. Not a weapon, not a tool. A cell phone.

What were they afraid of? Having their photograph taken?

How on earth was he supposed to know that police officers were the ones shouting at him? They gave him what? 4 seconds before firing 20 shots at him?????? Really?

We have the cops seeing him with a crowbar. We have the family saying he had a phone.

- - - Updated - - -

He was NOT carrying a "metal bar"

It is beyond unreasonable, especially when faced with an unarmed man.

They took Nikolas Cruz in alive even though he was a known verified armed killer

3) Tasers aren't for use in a situation like this. Against a guy without a ranged weapon they can be used with planning but they have to agree that one has the taser, one has the gun as backup. That's not going to happen in a pursuit situation.

Again, I call major horseshit. See Nikolas Cruz, Dylann Roof, even those Bundy Ranch assholes.

You seem to be unable to tell the difference between surrendering and resisting.

Most of those Bundy Ranch ones surrendered peacefully. One of the branch dildonians didn't--and is dead.

 

[Ford]

Thus the cops have to consider the suspect alive. They're going to cuff.

Why is it that a black man is automatically a "suspect?"

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thus the cops have to consider the suspect alive. They're going to cuff.

Why is it that a black man is automatically a "suspect?"

Automatically??

The guy was breaking into cars. The cops chased him. There's little doubt he was the right guy.

 

[Ford]

Thus the cops have to consider the suspect alive. They're going to cuff.

Why is it that a black man is automatically a "suspect?"

Automatically??

The guy was breaking into cars. The cops chased him. There's little doubt he was the right guy.

Oh that's right. You will defend cops no matter what they do.

 

[Emily Lake]

Calling me wrong but then using a personal attack rather than actually rebutting it shows I'm actually right.

That logic doesn't follow. Toni's lack of a rebuttal diminishes the value of her post form a debate standpoint... but a lack of a rebuttal in no way serves as support for your accuracy.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Have they released helicopter footage?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Calling me wrong but then using a personal attack rather than actually rebutting it shows I'm actually right.

That logic doesn't follow. Toni's lack of a rebuttal diminishes the value of her post form a debate standpoint... but a lack of a rebuttal in no way serves as support for your accuracy.

If people have a proper rebuttal they usually provide it. People generally resort to attacks when they can't address the issue.

 

[RavenSky]

We have the cops seeing him with a crowbar.

Wrong

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Jesus fucking christ. They handcuffed his corpse?

This is so tragic and so systemically wrong. And so vile.

Clearly showing you don't understand what's going on.

Only doctors pronounce death barring damage obviously incompatible with life.

Thus the cops have to consider the suspect alive. They're going to cuff.

(Note that in a triage situation cops may tag someone as "dead"--this is not a declaration of death. Rather, it is an analysis that when medical resources are overstretched that they should be directed towards the patients with a greater chance of being saved. Barring a sudden influx of a bunch of doctors a black tag is a death sentence, though.)

If he was alive enough to handcuff he was alive enough to render assistance to.

Does the helicopter footage show any police trying to stem bleeding? Did they call the ambulance?

 

[barbos]

OP created an impression that the guy was sitting on his grandma backyard and playing on his iPhone and police just shoot him.

 

[Toni]

Calling me wrong but then using a personal attack rather than actually rebutting it shows I'm actually right.

That logic doesn't follow. Toni's lack of a rebuttal diminishes the value of her post form a debate standpoint... but a lack of a rebuttal in no way serves as support for your accuracy.

If people have a proper rebuttal they usually provide it. People generally resort to attacks when they can't address the issue.

Believe it or not, I actually have a life that includes a need for sleep so that I can get up too damn early and drive too damn far to go to work then drive home too damn far and figure out dinner, pay attention to those I live with and do some chores from time to time.

Sorry if you don't get enough attention from me.

Loren, from time to time, and in this thread specifically, you really do NOT seem to know what is actually going on with regards to the topic being discussed. I figure you have a life, too and there's only so much time in the day and night so no biggie.

To get back to the post you are upset I did not expand upon: It's been pointed out more than once in this thread that after they killed that poor young man in his grandmother's back yard, they only 'weapon' they found on or near him was a white cell phone. Probably pretty darn close to the one I own.

There was no 'tool bar.' There was no pry bar, no weapon of any kind, much less a gun.

The police officers entered a back yard with no outdoor lights in the dark, came upon a young man and within SECONDS fired their guns at him, killing him dead, cuffing him and continued shouting orders at this poor dead person they just murdered. In his grandmother's back yard, coming in the way she always had family come in, into the home where he was living.

In those few seconds between when they came into the yard and began firing, the police did not identify themselves nor even pause for breath between shouting orders at this man in his grandmother's back yard! to drop the weapon he did not have before they shot him dead, emptying their own weapons. He had no weapon. He did NOTHING threatening except exist in his own grandmother's back yard, the back yard of the home where he was living and have a cell phone in his hand.

The police officers were wrong, and should be suspended pending investigation which should result in a trial for murder and manslaughter and they should be removed from their jobs and have their rights to own or carry firearms permanently suspended.

 

[Derec]

Have they released helicopter footage?

Yes, but the videos I have found all edit the heli footage with body cam footage and commentary. Like this one.

What is clear though is:
- he wasn't hanging out in the yard playing on his iPhone. He entered the yard just seconds before police saw him, and he entered by climbing onto something and jumping over the fence.
- as soon as he saw the police, he took off running around the corner of the house and then turned back and walked toward police. That's a really stupid thing to do, especially in the dark, especially holding an object.

By the way, this is grandma's house.

 

[Rhea]

Making me wonder yet again how many people are dead (dead!) because police do that stupid SHOUTSHOUTSHOUT thing that only creates confusion.

 

[Derec]

To get back to the post you are upset I did not expand upon: It's been pointed out more than once in this thread that after they killed that poor young man in his grandmother's back yard,

Saying it like that implies that he was hanging in the yard, minding his own business. But he entered said yard just seconds before, by jumping the fence, while being pursued by police on foot and in air because he was breaking into cars.

they only 'weapon' they found on or near him was a white cell phone. Probably pretty darn close to the one I own.

You are right there. But in dark, while the suspect is first fleeing and then coming at you, and with fractions of seconds to make a "shoot or don't shoot" decision, it's easy to mistake one for the other.
This case emphasizes why it is stupid to run from police. Especially when holding an object at night.

There was no 'tool bar.' There was no pry bar, no weapon of any kind, much less a gun.

Police thought he had a gun, which is why they shot him 20 times.
It was the heli police that thought they saw him with a crowbar or similar tool. He probably did have something like that since he was breaking into cars. But he could have easily dumped in in one of the yards he was trespassing in. After all, it's awkward to run with a crowbar unless your name is Gordon Freeman.

The police officers entered a back yard with no outdoor lights in the dark,

Which makes the whole situation more dangerous for everybody involved, and which is why it was so dangerous for him to run and even more to double back.

came upon a young man and within SECONDS fired their guns at him,

Before the police officers on foot saw him he was already fleeing from police. It's not like they surprised him. And as soon as he saw them he ran around the corner of the house and then he turned around for some reason. Add him holding an object, darkness and necessity to make a decision very quickly and you have a mistake, but not an unreasonable one. That does not make these cops murderers. It makes them human.

killing him dead,

cuffing him and continued shouting orders at this poor dead person they just murdered.

You are prejudging the case. I have seen no evidence that would make this murder.

In his grandmother's back yard, coming in the way she always had family come in, into the home where he was living

.
Really? The family always entered the yard by jumping the fence from the neighbor's yard, first climbing onto some object or structure belonging to the neighbor? Do tell more!
And why is it relevant that he was living there? Must police stop pursuing a suspect once he enters the yard of his residence? Not that police had any way of knowing where he lived anyway.

In those few seconds between when they came into the yard and began firing, the police did not identify themselves nor even pause for breath between shouting orders at this man in his grandmother's back yard!

It was actually about 20s. A bit more than "a few". Perhaps they should have identified themselves, but again, he was already fleeing from police before the officers on foot even made contact. He knew who they were. And you keep repeating it was his grandmother's house as if that has any relevance at all.

to drop the weapon he did not have before they shot him dead, emptying their own weapons.

Obviously they mistook the phone for a gun. He should have dropped it. And he should not have ran from police or turned around and walked toward them.

He had no weapon. He did NOTHING threatening except exist in his own grandmother's back yard, the back yard of the home where he was living and have a cell phone in his hand.

A fleeing suspect suddenly reversing direction is threatening behavior.

The police officers were wrong, and should be suspended pending investigation which should result in a trial for murder and manslaughter and they should be removed from their jobs and have their rights to own or carry firearms permanently suspended.

They are suspended pending investigation. But why have an investigation anyway? After all, you already know the police were wrong and that it was murder. They should not waste time on fancy investgatin' when they can just ask Toni.

 

[Derec]

Oh that's right. You will defend cops no matter what they do.

You claimed that he was "automatically" a suspect because of his race. Loren refuted this by saying that police had good reasons to suspect him of breaking into cars. You responded with an ad hominem.