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Are you aware that we don't actually live in a fascist state?

How can you tell?
What non-fascist state kidnaps refugee children from their parents, sequesters them away in the middle of the night in secret "dark sites" that the public and high government officials - even Senators - are not allowed to see? This is just a practice round for how to "disappear" people en masse.
What non-fascist government leaders can you name who advocate for doing away with due process?

I could build a very long list, but why bother when all I'd get back is, at best, a VERY SHORT list?
The point is that the US is currently a nascent fascist state, and unless the current regime is unseated in a hurry, you'll soon be chanting "NOT A FASCIST STATE" in unison with hundreds of thousands of other conscriptees, goose-stepping under a big banner with a fat orange face on it.

Hyperbolic CT much?
In less than 18 months, the President settled a fraud case involving his fake University, fired an acting AG, the FBI Director, has intimidated multiple witnesses, gone on a tirade live on television, admitted to obstructing justice, handed over critical Israeli based intel to the Russians, attempted to give the Russians back their spy HQ, couldn't speak out against the KKK, engaging in an aimless tariff war with friends and foes alike, and is engaging in reckless retorts with our allies... among other things!

And the GOP has done almost nothing about any of it. In fact, the House GOP is in bed with him, helping with the obstruction. This is a time to worry.
 
Are you aware that we don't actually live in a fascist state?

How can you tell?
What non-fascist state kidnaps refugee children from their parents, sequesters them away in the middle of the night in secret "dark sites" that the public and high government officials - even Senators - are not allowed to see? This is just a practice round for how to "disappear" people en masse.
What non-fascist government leaders can you name who advocate for doing away with due process?

I could build a very long list, but why bother when all I'd get back is, at best, a VERY SHORT list?
The point is that the US is currently a nascent fascist state, and unless the current regime is unseated in a hurry, you'll soon be chanting "NOT A FASCIST STATE" in unison with hundreds of thousands of other conscriptees, goose-stepping under a big banner with a fat orange face on it.

Hyperbolic CT much?

A bit hyperbolic perhaps. But the vacuity of that response speaks to its accuracy.
 
Hyperbolic CT much?

A bit hyperbolic perhaps. But the vacuity of that response speaks to its accuracy.

No, it doesn't.

Nobody has kidnapped refugee children. They haven't been sequestered in "secret dark sites", whether at night or during the day. The amount of hyperbolic conflation of fact and fictional appeals to emotion in your post is... well... enlightening.
 
Are you aware that we don't actually live in a fascist state?

How can you tell?
What non-fascist state kidnaps refugee children from their parents, sequesters them away in the middle of the night in secret "dark sites" that the public and high government officials - even Senators - are not allowed to see? This is just a practice round for how to "disappear" people en masse.
What non-fascist government leaders can you name who advocate for doing away with due process?

I could build a very long list, but why bother when all I'd get back is, at best, a VERY SHORT list?
The point is that the US is currently a nascent fascist state, and unless the current regime is unseated in a hurry, you'll soon be chanting "NOT A FASCIST STATE" in unison with hundreds of thousands of other conscriptees, goose-stepping under a big banner with a fat orange face on it.

Hyperbolic CT much?

Unfortunately, it's not hyperbolic.

Those children are being held captive in order to force various parties to comply with the dictates of the Administration a la Boko Haram. The President rules by fiat and whim, and has openly called for the abrogation of the Constitution. People respond by saying "Oh, that's just Trump being Trump", and completely ignoring the fact he can impose or change any policy in any federal matter via Executive Order. Even worse, Giuliani might be right: Trump might have the power to pardon himself for any crimes he committed before or during his tenure.

^This is dangerous, and not just because the President is a low-information, shallow-thinking, tantrum-throwing narcissist. It's dangerous because it's a tried and true path to supreme executive power and a populace that is powerless to effect change.
 
Of holy hell. Trump is an idiot and an asshole, but some of you guys really need to chill the fuck out. Unless your intention is to start a civil war on the basis of rabid and thoughtless partisanship, in which case, you're doing a great job of laying the foundation for enabling vigilante attacks against people with the "wrong" political persuasion. Yay for McArthyism, I guess.

As to your points...
In less than 18 months, the President settled a fraud case involving his fake University,
A JUDGE settled the case, providing a $25 Million settlement that refunds a significant portion of the tuition costs for everyone involved in the class action suit. It was settled AGAINST Trump, and it would very likely have been settled the same way if he hadn't become president.

fired an acting AG, the FBI Director,
Yes. He did. As have other presidents before him. That doesn't make him a fascist, nor does that make the US a burgeoning fascist state.

has intimidated multiple witnesses,
Which witnesses has be intimidated? And in what way has he intimidated them?

gone on a tirade live on television,
Don't forget twitter - he goes on tirades on twitter too. It's in bad taste, and reflective of a complete asshat unfit to lead... but going on a tirade doesn't make him a fascist, nor does that make the US a burgeoning fascist state.

admitted to obstructing justice,
No, he didn't. He made a statement that has been interpreted by some people in this way, but he did not, in fact, admit to obstructing justice.

handed over critical Israeli based intel to the Russians,
Um, no. He breached secrecy in a way that Israel didn't like, but he didn't actually provide any material information to Russia - the media, however, provided many details to the world at large that Trump did NOT disclose pertaining to the Israeli operative from whom the intel was acquired.

attempted to give the Russians back their spy HQ, couldn't speak out against the KKK, engaging in an aimless tariff war with friends and foes alike, and is engaging in reckless retorts with our allies... among other things!
All of which makes him an assh9ole with poor judgement... but still doesn't make Trump a fascist, nor does it make the US a burgeoning fascist state.

And the GOP has done almost nothing about any of it. In fact, the House GOP is in bed with him, helping with the obstruction. This is a time to worry.
Fine. Worry away. It's pointless worrying about hyperbolic assumptions based in highly partisan efforts to further divide the US. Seriously - you do realize that you're doing Russia's job for them, don't you? You're helping to foster chaos and divide the country along political lines, creating an environment of civil unrest.

Russia is winning and you're helping them.
 
Hyperbolic CT much?

Unfortunately, it's not hyperbolic.

Those children are being held captive in order to force various parties to comply with the dictates of the Administration a la Boko Haram. The President rules by fiat and whim, and has openly called for the abrogation of the Constitution. People respond by saying "Oh, that's just Trump being Trump", and completely ignoring the fact he can impose or change any policy in any federal matter via Executive Order. Even worse, Giuliani might be right: Trump might have the power to pardon himself for any crimes he committed before or during his tenure.

^This is dangerous, and not just because the President is a low-information, shallow-thinking, tantrum-throwing narcissist. It's dangerous because it's a tried and true path to supreme executive power and a populace that is powerless to effect change.

No, they're not being held captive. They're being held by health and human services while their parents are tried. When a relative or guardian can be contacted, they are released into the care of that guardian.

He doesn't rule by fiat and whim. He hasn't called for the abrogation of the Constitution. He can do exactly as much with executive orders as any other president before him could do. And Giuliani can say that he "might" be able to pardon himself, but the precedent already set by legal opinions issued during Nixon's trials that he cannot pardon himself.

++++++++++++++++++++++

To be honest, it's kind of entertaining to see so many people who spend way too much time on the internet steadily transforming into conspiracy theorists in the name of partisanship. Entertaining in the same way that a really awful grade-B horror movie is entertaining.
 
No, they're not being held captive. They're being held by health and human services while their parents are tried.
They were forcibly and involuntarily separated from their parents. They are not where they wish to be and they cannot leave whenever they want. That is basically the definition of being held captive.
 
Of holy hell. Trump is an idiot and an asshole, but some of you guys really need to chill the fuck out. Unless your intention is to start a civil war on the basis of rabid and thoughtless partisanship, in which case, you're doing a great job of laying the foundation for enabling vigilante attacks against people with the "wrong" political persuasion. Yay for McArthyism, I guess.

As to your points...

A JUDGE settled the case, providing a $25 Million settlement that refunds a significant portion of the tuition costs for everyone involved in the class action suit. It was settled AGAINST Trump, and it would very likely have been settled the same way if he hadn't become president.


Yes. He did. As have other presidents before him. That doesn't make him a fascist, nor does that make the US a burgeoning fascist state.

has intimidated multiple witnesses,
Which witnesses has be intimidated? And in what way has he intimidated them?

gone on a tirade live on television,
Don't forget twitter - he goes on tirades on twitter too. It's in bad taste, and reflective of a complete asshat unfit to lead... but going on a tirade doesn't make him a fascist, nor does that make the US a burgeoning fascist state.

admitted to obstructing justice,
No, he didn't. He made a statement that has been interpreted by some people in this way, but he did not, in fact, admit to obstructing justice.

handed over critical Israeli based intel to the Russians,
Um, no. He breached secrecy in a way that Israel didn't like, but he didn't actually provide any material information to Russia - the media, however, provided many details to the world at large that Trump did NOT disclose pertaining to the Israeli operative from whom the intel was acquired.

attempted to give the Russians back their spy HQ, couldn't speak out against the KKK, engaging in an aimless tariff war with friends and foes alike, and is engaging in reckless retorts with our allies... among other things!
All of which makes him an assh9ole with poor judgement... but still doesn't make Trump a fascist, nor does it make the US a burgeoning fascist state.

And the GOP has done almost nothing about any of it. In fact, the House GOP is in bed with him, helping with the obstruction. This is a time to worry.
Fine. Worry away. It's pointless worrying about hyperbolic assumptions based in highly partisan efforts to further divide the US. Seriously - you do realize that you're doing Russia's job for them, don't you? You're helping to foster chaos and divide the country along political lines, creating an environment of civil unrest.

Russia is winning and you're helping them.

Wow, clueless.

Your honor, my client has been charged with so many different crimes. Cleary the case against my client is flimsy as the prosecutor couldn’t stick with a few big ones.
 
Hyperbolic CT much?

Unfortunately, it's not hyperbolic.

Those children are being held captive in order to force various parties to comply with the dictates of the Administration a la Boko Haram. The President rules by fiat and whim, and has openly called for the abrogation of the Constitution. People respond by saying "Oh, that's just Trump being Trump", and completely ignoring the fact he can impose or change any policy in any federal matter via Executive Order. Even worse, Giuliani might be right: Trump might have the power to pardon himself for any crimes he committed before or during his tenure.

^This is dangerous, and not just because the President is a low-information, shallow-thinking, tantrum-throwing narcissist. It's dangerous because it's a tried and true path to supreme executive power and a populace that is powerless to effect change.

No, they're not being held captive. They're being held by health and human services while their parents are tried. When a relative or guardian can be contacted, they are released into the care of that guardian.

He doesn't rule by fiat and whim. He hasn't called for the abrogation of the Constitution. He can do exactly as much with executive orders as any other president before him could do. And Giuliani can say that he "might" be able to pardon himself, but the precedent already set by legal opinions issued during Nixon's trials that he cannot pardon himself.

++++++++++++++++++++++

To be honest, it's kind of entertaining to see so many people who spend way too much time on the internet steadily transforming into conspiracy theorists in the name of partisanship. Entertaining in the same way that a really awful grade-B horror movie is entertaining.
That he even thinks about the possibility of pardon him self shows that he is a antidemocratic tyrant.
His behaviour shows beyond doubt that he is fascist.
Why are cant you see that?
 
No, they're not being held captive. They're being held by health and human services while their parents are tried.
They were forcibly and involuntarily separated from their parents. They are not where they wish to be and they cannot leave whenever they want. That is basically the definition of being held captive.

Hypothetical here, so we make sure we're being objective about this.

If a single mother steals a loaf of bread, and is taken to jail, HHS will take custody of her child while the mother is in jail, until such time as a suitable guardian can be located or the child is placed into the foster care system. That child is forcibly and involuntarily separated from their parents. They are not where they wish to be, and cannot leave whenever they want.

Does that also qualify as being held captive, in your opinion?
 
That he even thinks about the possibility of pardon him self shows that he is a antidemocratic tyrant.
His behaviour shows beyond doubt that he is fascist.
Why are cant you see that?
No, it doesn't show he's an antidemocratic tyrant :rolleyes: It shows that he's a slimeball that will exploit any loophole in the law that he thinks he can get away with.
His behavior doesn't show him to be a fascist - he's at best a self-absorbed, narcissistic, and shallow child who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way and spends most of his time trash-talking people on twitter in a truly juvenile display of pique.

But he is not a dictator, and cannot become a dictator in the US. The US is NOT on the verge of becoming a fascist state.

We have a shitty president that is reviled and hated by a significant portion of people in the US, including an overwhelming majority of people who identify as democrats. His shittiness is being used to drive an even bigger wedge into an already highly divided political landscape.
 
No, they're not being held captive. They're being held by health and human services while their parents are tried.
They were forcibly and involuntarily separated from their parents. They are not where they wish to be and they cannot leave whenever they want. That is basically the definition of being held captive.

Hypothetical here, so we make sure we're being objective about this.

If a single mother steals a loaf of bread, and is taken to jail, HHS will take custody of her child while the mother is in jail, until such time as a suitable guardian can be located or the child is placed into the foster care system. That child is forcibly and involuntarily separated from their parents. They are not where they wish to be, and cannot leave whenever they want.

Does that also qualify as being held captive, in your opinion?
Yes.

Of course, the single mother will not be held indefinitely - probably released on her own within hours. And the likelihood of finding a suitable guardian is much higher in the single mother case, and everyone is probably speaking the same language.
And in the case of asylum seekers who have not broken any laws, the children were separated.

So, I think it should be obvious that your hypothetical is rather an inept attempt at equivocation.
His shittiness is being used to drive an even bigger wedge into an already highly divided political landscape.
Yes, mostly himself.
 
That he even thinks about the possibility of pardon him self shows that he is a antidemocratic tyrant.
His behaviour shows beyond doubt that he is fascist.
Why are cant you see that?
No, it doesn't show he's an antidemocratic tyrant :rolleyes: It shows that he's a slimeball that will exploit any loophole in the law that he thinks he can get away with.
His behavior doesn't show him to be a fascist - he's at best a self-absorbed, narcissistic, and shallow child who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way and spends most of his time trash-talking people on twitter in a truly juvenile display of pique.

But he is not a dictator, and cannot become a dictator in the US. The US is NOT on the verge of becoming a fascist state.

We have a shitty president that is reviled and hated by a significant portion of people in the US, including an overwhelming majority of people who identify as democrats. His shittiness is being used to drive an even bigger wedge into an already highly divided political landscape.

What makes you so sure he's not a tyrant? What stops him.

This is a short excerpt from a book called On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century. Here if anyone is interested.

On February 2, 1933, for example, a leading newspaper for German Jews published an editorial expressing this mislaid trust: We do not subscribe to the view that Mr. Hitler and his friends, now finally in possession of the power they have so long desired, will implement the proposals circulating in [Nazi newspapers]; they will not suddenly deprive German Jews of their constitutional rights, nor enclose them in ghettos, nor subject them to the jealous and murderous impulses of the mob. They cannot do this because a number of crucial factors hold powers in check…and they clearly do not want to go down that road. When one acts as a European power, the whole atmosphere tends towards ethical reflection upon one’s better self and away from revisiting one’s earlier oppositional posture. Such was the view of many reasonable people in 1933, just as it is the view of many reasonable people now.
 
Hypothetical here, so we make sure we're being objective about this.

If a single mother steals a loaf of bread, and is taken to jail

No one would be taken to jail for a misdemeanor offense like stealing a loaf of bread. And that’s rather the point. The crime doesn’t fit the punishment.

The only way any prosecutor would even consider going after a jail sentence would be if the person in question committed a serious felony offense, such as grand larceny, like stealing a car. And even then the threshold for jail would be very high (i.e., fines first; then community service; mitigation for first time offense; etc).

So, yeah, if anyone were imprisoned for stealing a $2 loaf of bread and had their children taken from them and their children were also imprisoned in specially erected detention camps for children of mothers whose only crime was stealing $2 worth of bread, that would absolutely qualify as being held captive.

But more to the point, not filling out paperwork and waiting upwards of decades due to government worker backlog/indifference/incompetence/artificial and/or politically motivated quota restrictions just to get an official piece of paper that has no intrinsic value and does not in any way reflect anything relevant about the individual (other than their ignorance or desperation) is not even as bad a crime as stealing a lousy $2 loaf of bread, but even if it were on par with such an egregious act, that STILL would not justify indefinitely detaining one's children.

Again, just imagine men in jackboots and riot gear breaking into your home and taking your children away from you--indefinitely--because you never filled out paperwork for a driver's license. You know how to drive and you've never once had a ticket or got into an accident in all the years you’ve been driving, but for whatever reason you didn't fill out a piece of paper and for that "crime" and that "crime" alone your children are thrown in cages.

Does that qualify as "being held captive"?

If not, then add on to all of that the fact that it was the stated policy of your governor to deliberately take away and imprison your children because of a "zero tolerance" policy shift in regard to people who have otherwise perfect driving abilities and records but did not fill out a piece of paper to get a little card that does nothing more than confirm that you filled out a piece of paper. Iow, your governor is literally holding your children captive as punishment to you, blackmail to you and draconian warning to anyone else who might dare not fill out a piece of paper all in the guise of some other motive than the stated “letter of the law” dodge.

None of this nonsense has anything to do with the letter of the law. Undocumented immigrants not only don’t cost us anything, they contribute billions of dollars into our economy and Social Security fund every year. They don’t take anyone’s job away from them, 96% of them have never committed any crime beyond not filling out a piece of paper and 60% have lived here for more than a decade, so why exactly is this all so dire all of sudden that anyone would even consider child detention camps? One word: miscegenation.

I won't ask if that would "qualify" as "being held captive" because it is just a straight fact at that point as stated directly by the governor that your children are indeed being held captive by the state.

And although others have already addressed it, in regard to something being "in aid of," that means in preparation for or geared towards or in order to foment. It doesn't matter whether or not America is currently a fascist state as in its fundamental structure. Fascism is an ideology, not necessarily solely a condition of State and anything in aid of such a state would obviously be such steps as abusing the power of government in such nefarious fashion.
 
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What makes you so sure he's not a tyrant? What stops him.
To be frank, what stops him is a whoooooole lot of americans with firearms who aren't going to meekly surrender their (or their neighbor's) constitutional rights, despite how many times not-republicans argue for removal of the second amendment. For all of the arguments against firearms in the hands of ordinary citizens, and for all of the risks that attend that right... that right, and the high level of exercise of that right in the US is exactly what curtails him from being a tyrant.

Despite however much he might want to be one.

This is a short excerpt from a book called On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century. Here if anyone is interested.

On February 2, 1933, for example, a leading newspaper for German Jews published an editorial expressing this mislaid trust: We do not subscribe to the view that Mr. Hitler and his friends, now finally in possession of the power they have so long desired, will implement the proposals circulating in [Nazi newspapers]; they will not suddenly deprive German Jews of their constitutional rights, nor enclose them in ghettos, nor subject them to the jealous and murderous impulses of the mob. They cannot do this because a number of crucial factors hold powers in check…and they clearly do not want to go down that road. When one acts as a European power, the whole atmosphere tends towards ethical reflection upon one’s better self and away from revisiting one’s earlier oppositional posture. Such was the view of many reasonable people in 1933, just as it is the view of many reasonable people now.

Here's the thing: we remember that. And so does the Jewish community. Do you know how many firearms my spouse has sold to older Jews during the last couple of years? Do you know how many firearms he has sold to minorities, and to gay people?
 
Look. If things go that far, you and your. 38 or. 45 or shotgun, etc. will mean little. A hell fire missile from a drone will blow you up as a declared terrorist from 30 km away. The idea that the people will keep the government in check with their personal firearms is silly.
 
Look. If things go that far, you and your. 38 or. 45 or shotgun, etc. will mean little. A hell fire missile from a drone will blow you up as a declared terrorist from 30 km away. The idea that the people will keep the government in check with their personal firearms is silly.

Goddamn. This is where the CT goes off the rails. Do you understand what needs to happen for your scenario to occur?

For Trump to assume dictatorial power within the US... he needs no resistance from Congress, and no resistance from the Judicial branch, and no resistance from the military. Somehow, he needs to get a supermajority of a congress that he does not entirely control to side with him and support his usurpation of power. He needs to convince the Judicial branch, whose duty is the interpretation of the constitution, to support him in directly violating that constitution. And he needs the support of the US military, whose duty is to uphold the OFFICE of the President (not the acting president) and to act in accord with the constitution, to violate their sworn oaths and the UCMJ and turn their arms against the citizens of the US who are acting in accord with their constitutional rights in protecting themselves from a violation of the constitution.

What on earth makes you think that will happen? Why do you think that the entire military apparatus will meekly go along with the desires of a self-proclaimed dictator in direct violation of their duty? What makes you think that law enforcement would kow-tow to orders that directly violate their role and responsibility to the people of the united states?

Trump doesn't have nearly enough support to pull this off. Not even remotely close.
 
I didn't say that those things were happening. I'm saying that if things went off the rails that badly the rednecks with the firearms are not going to save Democracy "Red Dawn" style.
 
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