The Sordid Tale Of Cyntoia Brown

[laughing dog]

Then don't pretend you know more than me.

I didn't pretend anything of the sort.

Because you know far less.

That is an unsubstantiated claim of fact.

I explained my reasoning. All you have is "no it isn't" like John Cleese from the Argument Clinic sketch and throwing around pop-psych buzzwords like "Stockholm syndrome".

I simply pointed out that your "conclusion" is not valid or relevant because you think it is. That is basic reasoning.

You are talking to yourself yet again.

Not to anyone with minimal reading comprehension skills.

 

[ruby sparks]

Cyntoia has a long history of violence even before she robbed and murdered that guy in cold blood. To pretend she got convicted because of her caffè latte colored skin is ridiculous.

Sure. I only meant that in general, Perceptions of guilt and harshness/frequency of custodial sentencing are positively correlated to darker skin (in majority white countries).

But then the same things are negatively correlated with being female, so maybe in an odd way it evens out for women with darker skin?

Sort of just kidding.

If what you say about her repeated pattern of behaviour around the time of the murder is correct, then it would indeed cast serious doubt about in any way excusing her for the murder or having much sympathy.

That said, I'm not against her getting out. 15 years is a long time. I'm not a fan of locking people up forever. 15 years is the average length of a 'life sentence' here. And she was only 16.

 

[Derec]

We know that Cyntoia Browne was an abused child who was raped repeatedly and trafficked while under the age of consent by a violent pimp.

Do we know all that? Because the evidence suggests that Cyntoia was with Cut-Throat voluntarily. Sure, she was below age of consent, but that does not mean that she did not choose to be with him voluntarily. If this case had happened in Bahrain (aoc: 21), and Arab Cyntoia was 19 years old, would you still think she was automatically "abused", "raped" and "trafficked" just because her age was below some arbitrary cutoff?

She was required to bring him money or would face additional violence.

How do we know that other than Cyntoia's own self-serving testimony? We know she robbed and murdered a guy. We know she talked to another man (not Cut-Throat) where she bragged about the murder.

Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia said I shot somebody in the head last night and blew his brains out. Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia said it was a fat lick (robbery). Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia said she took $50,000, some guns and his truck. Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia said she and her boyfriend had been waiting on a lick like that all week. Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia offered him money to drive back to the victim's house so she could get more items.

Note that she refers to her boyfriend and that her statements indicate they were partners in crime, not a victimizer and victim.
She also used the .40 to threaten another man who also stated that he was afraid of retaliation by Cyntoia and Cut-Throat. I.e. the two were working together, as partners.

Mr. Humphrey stated they didn't believe her until the saw the 10:00 PM news. Mr. Humphrey stated they discussed calling the police but feared retaliation by Cyntoia and her boyfriend. Mr. Humphrey stated they decided to leave the hotel and call the police.
Mr. Humphrey stated Cyntoia was also armed with a .40 calber handgun and threatened him with it several days ago. Mr. Humphrey stated Cyntoia was living in room 302.

The rest of the article is worth reading too.
Read the letter the lead detective in Cyntoia Brown's case wrote Gov. Bill Haslam arguing against clemency
It shows the claims of Cyntoia fan club to be lies and makes clear that her sentence should not have been commuted.

Men would purchase her services while being aware that she was too young to consent to sex under state statutes.

How would they be aware of that? She was 16, not 6. A 16 year old does not look very different from an 18 year old.

That means that men committed statuatory rape on her.

Only because these laws foolishly do not allow ignorance of age as defense. And only if she actually performed the paid-for service on any of them instead of just stealing or robbing them.
And in any case, statuatory[sic] rape that does not justify robbery and murder.

I'm sorry if the thought that prostitutes might not actually be prostitutes because they enjoy sex with random creeps upsets you.

No, she is not a prostitute because instead of having sex with her would-be customers, she robbed them instead. In one case, she also murdered him.
Just because she was 16 does not make her an innocent victim. She was a calculating, premeditated criminal.

I’m sorry if you must consider that prostitutes work for the money and would prefer the money with no sex.

I am sure plumbers would like to get paid without having to unclog your toilet too, and still I do not think it would be all right for him to take your money without doing the work. I think it is even more wrong to murder you in order to get that money. And that is the case even if it was a 16 year old plumber's apprentice who robbed and murdered you.

I’m sorry if it upsets you that sometimes girls and women fight back.

She didn't "fight back". She robbed and murdered a man for monetary gain. She is the perpetrator here. She wasn't defending herself.

 

[Derec]

Sure. I only meant that in general, Perceptions of guilt and harshness/frequency of custodial sentencing are positively correlated to darker skin (in majority white countries).

Cyntoia's skin isn't even that dark, because she is really biracial.

But then the same things are negatively correlated with being female, so maybe in an odd way it evens out for women with darker skin?
Sort of just kidding.

You speak truth in jest. Although, she is more female than dark, so she gets ahead with mere 15 years for robbery and murder.

If what you say about her repeated pattern of behaviour around the time of the murder is correct, then it would indeed cast serious doubt about in any way excusing her for the murder or having much sympathy.

It is quite well documented. And her behavior immediately after the murder also does not suggest somebody who killed in self-defense.

That said, I'm not against her getting out. 15 years is a long time. I'm not a fan of locking people up forever. 15 years is the average length of a 'life sentence' here. And she was only 16.

But it is not the length of life sentence here. I think sentences should be consistent. She is not getting out because of some general sentencing reform but because she bamboozled the idiot governor.

 

[Derec]

I simply pointed out that your "conclusion" is not valid or relevant because you think it is. That is basic reasoning.

That's the only reasoning you are capable of. The problem is, it is insufficient for anything going beyond the basics.

Not to anyone with minimal reading comprehension skills.

Says the guy who can't even comprehend the articles I have been posting here that shows his assessment of who Cyntoia Brown is is dead wrong.

 

[Elixir]

The whole tale makes one wonder about Brett Kavanaugh, and what might have been...

 

[Derec]

The whole tale makes one wonder about Brett Kavanaugh, and what might have been...

Are you expressing an opinion that a Supreme Court Justice should have been murdered? Because otherwise I do not understand the derail.

 

[ruby sparks]

The rest of the article is worth reading too.
Read the letter the lead detective in Cyntoia Brown's case wrote Gov. Bill Haslam arguing against clemency

From that letter:

"At the beginning of this investigation I considered the possibility that Cyntoia Brown was justified in killing Johnny Allen. At the conclusion of this investigation my findings were that she was not justified in killing Mr. Allen and her only motivation for the murder was robbery. I saw her lawyer on the news say that Cyntoia Brown had a low IQ score. I recall the doctors that evaluated Cyntoia Brown testifying in court that she was academically "gifted." "

Out of curiosity, I wonder which of the things in bold is actually true.

 

[Derec]

The rest of the article is worth reading too.
Read the letter the lead detective in Cyntoia Brown's case wrote Gov. Bill Haslam arguing against clemency

From that letter:

"At the beginning of this investigation I considered the possibility that Cyntoia Brown was justified in killing Johnny Allen. At the conclusion of this investigation my findings were that she was not justified in killing Mr. Allen and her only motivation for the murder was robbery. I saw her lawyer on the news say that Cyntoia Brown had a low IQ score. I recall the doctors that evaluated Cyntoia Brown testifying in court that she was academically "gifted." "

Out of curiosity, I wonder which of the things in bold is actually true.

I have not seen the shyster's claim elsewhere, although it is certainly something a Saul Goodmanesque lawyer would lie about to help his client. However, the opinion that she is intelligent is shared by a law professor whose college class Cyntoia took while in prison.

Cyntoia Brown could be a gifted litigator, professor Preston Shipp thought, as he discussed the moving parts of the criminal justice system with his 30 students. Inquisitive, engaged, able to parse a legal principle and trace its lineage, the 21-year-old Brown was unlike anyone he'd ever taught.
It wasn't just that she wrung every nugget of knowledge she could from her professor. It was her active, searching mind. Whenever Shipp played devil's advocate supporting the prevailing model of mass incarceration, Cyntoia was the one student he could count on to pick holes in his argument. That set her apart from his students at Lipscomb University, undergrads whose attendance at chapel and Bible study is mandatory.

Life Begins at Sixteen

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

She has a history of violent behavior since she was 12 years old. According to the Nashville Scene article, her usual MO was to run off with the clients' money without providing the agreed upon service.

And there it is, folks.

And there is what exactly? Giving actual facts of the case instead of judging it based on the perpetrator's position on the progressive stack?

No, you called her rapists "clients," her rape a "service," and at least through inference a PRETEEN sex slave a worker.

 

[Derec]

No, you called her rapists "clients," her rape a "service,"

She pretended to be a hooker to lure her victims for robbery. And the customers had no way of knowing she was not 18.
Saying that somebody unknowingly picking up a barely underage hooker is a "rapist" cheapens real rape.
And it is especially horrible to use such language to excuse premeditated robbery and murder.

and at least through inference a PRETEEN sex slave a worker.

In what universe is 16 years old "preteen"? 16 is an older teenager, not preteen. Do you even know what English words mean?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Cheapens real rape...

OI!

 

[Derec]

Cheapens real rape...

OI!

When you call things that are clearly not rape "rape", then you cheapen the term.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

She has a history of violent behavior since she was 12 years old. According to the Nashville Scene article, her usual MO was to run off with the clients' money without providing the agreed upon service.

What is wrong with you?

In what universe is 16 years old "preteen"?

You said she was 12. Why do you think a 16 year old sex slave is better for your argument?

 

[Derec]

She has a history of violent behavior since she was 12 years old. According to the Nashville Scene article, her usual MO was to run off with the clients' money without providing the agreed upon service.

What is wrong with you?

What's wrong with what I wrote? That girl was trouble from early on.

 

[Toni]

No, you called her rapists "clients," her rape a "service,"

She pretended to be a hooker to lure her victims for robbery. And the customers had no way of knowing she was not 18.
Saying that somebody unknowingly picking up a barely underage hooker is a "rapist" cheapens real rape.
And it is especially horrible to use such language to excuse premeditated robbery and murder.

and at least through inference a PRETEEN sex slave a worker.

In what universe is 16 years old "preteen"? 16 is an older teenager, not preteen. Do you even know what English words mean?

She wasn't pretending.

I'm sure you find it upsetting that she preferred to steal than to engage in sexual activity with random strangers, especially since she was unable to legally give consent to sexual activity.


How amazing that someone who is afraid of being further physically and sexually abused by one's pimp would prefer to satisfy the pimp's demands for cash by robbing 'clients' who wanted to have sex with someone too young to consent--i.e. rape her. Prostitutes do not have sex with clients because they like sex or the clients. It is unsurprising that a young girl would prefer not to have sex with random strangers. It is not surprising that young girls and young boys do what they need to do to survive when those who are supposed to love and look out for them instead abuse them and turn them out to trick. This is not a surprise. We all know that hooking is a dangerous line of work. Guess what? Picking up prostitutes is also dangerous. Quel dommage!

 

[Toni]

Do we know all that? Because the evidence suggests that Cyntoia was with Cut-Throat voluntarily. Sure, she was below age of consent, but that does not mean that she did not choose to be with him voluntarily. If this case had happened in Bahrain (aoc: 21), and Arab Cyntoia was 19 years old, would you still think she was automatically "abused", "raped" and "trafficked" just because her age was below some arbitrary cutoff?


How do we know that other than Cyntoia's own self-serving testimony? We know she robbed and murdered a guy. We know she talked to another man (not Cut-Throat) where she bragged about the murder.

Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia said I shot somebody in the head last night and blew his brains out. Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia said it was a fat lick (robbery). Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia said she took $50,000, some guns and his truck. Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia said she and her boyfriend had been waiting on a lick like that all week. Mr. Reed stated Cyntoia offered him money to drive back to the victim's house so she could get more items.

Note that she refers to her boyfriend and that her statements indicate they were partners in crime, not a victimizer and victim.
She also used the .40 to threaten another man who also stated that he was afraid of retaliation by Cyntoia and Cut-Throat. I.e. the two were working together, as partners.

Mr. Humphrey stated they didn't believe her until the saw the 10:00 PM news. Mr. Humphrey stated they discussed calling the police but feared retaliation by Cyntoia and her boyfriend. Mr. Humphrey stated they decided to leave the hotel and call the police.
Mr. Humphrey stated Cyntoia was also armed with a .40 calber handgun and threatened him with it several days ago. Mr. Humphrey stated Cyntoia was living in room 302.

The rest of the article is worth reading too.
Read the letter the lead detective in Cyntoia Brown's case wrote Gov. Bill Haslam arguing against clemency
It shows the claims of Cyntoia fan club to be lies and makes clear that her sentence should not have been commuted.

Men would purchase her services while being aware that she was too young to consent to sex under state statutes.

How would they be aware of that? She was 16, not 6. A 16 year old does not look very different from an 18 year old.

That means that men committed statuatory rape on her.

Only because these laws foolishly do not allow ignorance of age as defense. And only if she actually performed the paid-for service on any of them instead of just stealing or robbing them.
And in any case, statuatory[sic] rape that does not justify robbery and murder.

I'm sorry if the thought that prostitutes might not actually be prostitutes because they enjoy sex with random creeps upsets you.

No, she is not a prostitute because instead of having sex with her would-be customers, she robbed them instead. In one case, she also murdered him.
Just because she was 16 does not make her an innocent victim. She was a calculating, premeditated criminal.

I’m sorry if you must consider that prostitutes work for the money and would prefer the money with no sex.

I am sure plumbers would like to get paid without having to unclog your toilet too, and still I do not think it would be all right for him to take your money without doing the work. I think it is even more wrong to murder you in order to get that money. And that is the case even if it was a 16 year old plumber's apprentice who robbed and murdered you.

I’m sorry if it upsets you that sometimes girls and women fight back.

She didn't "fight back". She robbed and murdered a man for monetary gain. She is the perpetrator here. She wasn't defending herself.

You believe she wasn't defending herself. I believe she thought she was defending herself.

She and 'Cut Throat' were hardly partners. She was under his control and was fearful of not giving him cash.

If you paid any attention at all, it would be clear to you that Cyntonia lied to the guy about what she did--or he lied about what she told him. There was no $50K in cash that she stole from the guy who creeped out a lot of other women who avoided him because he was a creep--a creep who raped at least one other person.

Pardon me if I have no sympathy for guys looking for sex with young girls if the young girl ends up being under age. I know that a lot of guys specifically look for girls who are young--younger than the age of consent. And I'm not even getting into the pedophiles here, the ones who look for young children to rape.

You know that it's true as well. There are lots of guys out there who are too much into control and too frightened of being judged by a woman and so they are compelled to seek out girls who are too young to be able to fight back or know enough to realize the guy is a bad joke.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Cyntoia Brown Will Finally Be Free, After Nearly 15 Years in Prison

Tennessee governor Bill Haslam has granted Brown a full commutation to parole, the Tennessean reports. She will be eligible for release on August 7, 2019.

https://www.thecut.com/2019/01/cyntoia-browns-sentence-commuted-to-be-released-august-7.html

I see it's just parole--I strongly suspect she'll be back inside soon.

 

[laughing dog]

I simply pointed out that your "conclusion" is not valid or relevant because you think it is. That is basic reasoning.

That's the only reasoning you are capable of. The problem is, it is insufficient for anything going beyond the basics.

Perhaps, but you need to get past the basics first - which your hysterical responses have not.

Says the guy who can't even comprehend the articles I have been posting here that shows his assessment of who Cyntoia Brown is is dead wrong.

Handwaved bs and rage - it's all you got here.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

She has a history of violent behavior since she was 12 years old. According to the Nashville Scene article, her usual MO was to run off with the clients' money without providing the agreed upon service.

What is wrong with you?

What's wrong with what I wrote? That girl was trouble from early on.

You wrote that a sex slave had "clients" and an "agreed upon service." You complained about a troubled, abused 12 year old reacting with violence. What is wrong with you?