Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

[marc]

Bullshit! Your attitude is the racist one. You see whites as automatically bad and having it in for the blacks. You are also the uninformed one, as you keep ignoring actual crime statistics.

You don't sound like you're taking my post seriously at all, you're just spinning off the first point that comes to mind as a rebuttal. This is because you're an uninformed racist and have no interest in reality.

I have nothing against white people, but I am aware that black people face systemic disadvantages in the U.S. in 2020. This is plainly obvious.

But he's not wrong that most violent crime committed against Black people is by other Black people.

and most crime committed against white people is by other white people. Criminals don't tend to commute long distances, preferring the people in their area.

 

[Trausti]

But he's not wrong that most violent crime committed against Black people is by other Black people.

It is a stupid "whataboutism" which irrelevant to the actual discussion.

Yeah, I'd agree. This is about whether it was reasonable for two guys to chase down someone they thought was a burglar, brandishing their guns. I don't think it was. But if you want to expand beyond this incident to societal criticisms, then don't bitch about "whataboutism."

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

But he's not wrong that most violent crime committed against Black people is by other Black people.

Sure, but this is like taking fifty alligators from Florida, trapping them in a small cage, then calling them violent because they get aggressive with one another. It has no relevance to the problem of racism at all.

You know, by your analogy, you're saying Blacks are inherently violent.

Alligators are not "inherently violent." Where did you get that asinine idea?

 

[Trausti]

You know, by your analogy, you're saying Blacks are inherently violent.

Alligators are not "inherently violent." Where did you get that asinine idea?

Okay, Alligator King.

 

[marc]

McMichael stated "the other night" they saw the same male and he stuck his hand down his pants which lead them to believe the male was armed.

I mean, if you're going to go this far, you have to kill the man so he has no story to tell and you can throw in a good old "hand down the pants" claim.
This goes way far for a citizen's arrest. "Immediate knowledge", how ever they define that, pushes citizen's arrest toward vigilantism.

Of course this is an Open Carry state, so even if he was clearly carrying a weapon that is not supposed to be grounds for suspecting him of anything there.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

You know, by your analogy, you're saying Blacks are inherently violent.

Alligators are not "inherently violent." Where did you get that asinine idea?

Okay, Alligator King.

Don't blame others for your ignorance. Oh right, s.o.p.

 

[TSwizzle]

Now we have a base of black people in the continental U.S. who are trying to build their lives in an atmosphere of pervasive racism. White people dominate the U.S., they dominate every aspect of the economy and culture. They are the owners of businesses, they are the people who run schools, they are the people who make laws. And even those who aren't killing black people in the streets likely still don't want to hire them or promote their livelihood in any capacity. Ok, now are you getting the picture?

Say, McFly, what decade are you in exactly ? There may be some areas of the USA where it is still like that and Georgia may one such area but certainly not where I live.

 

[ZiprHead]

Trayvon Martin derail posts moved to here.

Knock it off, please.

 

[rousseau]

Now we have a base of black people in the continental U.S. who are trying to build their lives in an atmosphere of pervasive racism. White people dominate the U.S., they dominate every aspect of the economy and culture. They are the owners of businesses, they are the people who run schools, they are the people who make laws. And even those who aren't killing black people in the streets likely still don't want to hire them or promote their livelihood in any capacity. Ok, now are you getting the picture?

Say, McFly, what decade are you in exactly ? There may be some areas of the USA where it is still like that and Georgia may one such area but certainly not where I live.

The situation being improved over what it was like in the 20s or 30s doesn't mean it's a great situation for black people, or solved by any means. It just means the concrete ceiling has a few chinks in it.

I'm certainly not any kind of apologist, but it really takes some blinders to believe racism isn't still a serious problem in the U.S.

 

[cycomiko]

Do you expect Arbery to just lay down on the ground and not try to fight his way out?

I think grabbing the barrel of a shotgun is a good way to get shot.

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

 

[Jarhyn]

The most ironic thing here is that I do, in fact, support a citizen's right to defend himself or his property. I had someone trespassing on my property. They were going through the things on my porch, and I did in fact chase them off with a deadly weapon. If they attacked me, they would have had that weapon brandished at them, and could well have ended up dying. They likely would not have died given that I would have immediately administered effective first aid, and the weapon was not as immediately lethal as a firearm would be.

The difference is, I DID immediately see them trespassing and in immediate commission of a crime with a positive ID. The difference is, I didn't chase them down or attack them once they started running away and left my property, and when I saw that same individual some months later, I did nothing to confront them; they merely left and I let them do so without incident.

Instead, the folks here made several major mistakes. First, they did not have positive ID that the individual they spotted was the person breaking into houses. Second, they chased them down with the intent to do harm despite, third is their lack of immediate knowledge that the person they saw was the criminal that was breaking into houses.

Also, and I can't overstate this... THEY DID NOT HAVE POSITIVE ID that he was the actual B&E suspect.

It would be similar to if I had attacked the man who was attempting to break into my house when I saw him again months later. If I had done such a thing, it would have amounted to a senseless murder. In fact, I can only infer it was the same man because he was wearing a similar jacket and he left the area after seeming to have recognized me.

 

[cycomiko]

In the video it can be seen that Arbery grabbed the shotgun. Not murder. Manslaughter at most.

Chasing down a burglar is a bad idea but is not illegal.

I'm not seeing the video but the article does say there was a fight over the shotgun. From a criminal standpoint I think the shooter is in the clear--this wasn't a case of chasing down and killing the guy. The shot wasn't about the burglary, it was about trying to take the shotgun.

Civil liability, though--they very well might be in trouble.

I could see that distinction whether I think the law is correct or not. However, they didn't just see him burgle anything as far as I've read. They story seems to be that they saw a guy they thought was a suspect and chased after him. Chasing someone with a gun IS illegal and would show intent to do harm, right? I'm actually asking. Wouldn't that be the distinction to seek murder charges?

 

[Jokodo]

This exposes how stupid Stand Your Ground laws are. These idiots grab their guns and pursue a runner. The DA says, well, they were just defending themselves. But what about the runner? Has he no right to defense from a couple crazy assholes with guns?! Stand Your Ground is simply a bullshit law that is solely designed to defend Han Solo, ie the guy who shoots first).

The "threat" from the guys with the guns was jail, not physical harm. As such, he has no right to use force.

What have you been smoking? While it might legitimately have been their intention to get him into jail, he can't be expected to mind read. What he knew is that he was being chased Mad Max style by armed guys on a truck. He was legitimately afraid even if their intent was not to harm him, a presumption that seems rather doubtful given the outcome.

 

[TSwizzle]

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to run in the opposite direction rather towards to gun-toting rednecks ?

 

[cycomiko]

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to run in the opposite direction rather towards to gun-toting rednecks ?

The video starts after he's obviously tried to run away and then one of the trucks pulls in front of him and the driver jumps out with a shotgun. So it seems that the options are to get shot in the back trying to run away or trying to disarm the guy with the gun.

 

[TSwizzle]

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to run in the opposite direction rather towards to gun-toting rednecks ?

The video starts after he's obviously tried to run away and then one of the trucks pulls in front of him and the driver jumps out with a shotgun. So it seems that the options are to get shot in the back trying to run away or trying to disarm the guy with the gun.

I'm not sure that's the case. From what I saw the truck was parked a good distance in front of him and he continued to run towards it, then rounded toward the front of the truck where he's out of sight before coming back in to view struggling with one of the rednecks' gun. Do we know what role the person who took the video had in all of this ? Was that person part of the "posse" ?

 

[marc]

And I think that in the heat of the moment, when a gun is pointed at you, grabbing the barrel in an attempt to point it away from you or to disarm the guy is may be your only chance of survival. After being chased down by gun-toting rednecks I'm pretty sure most of us assume we're about to get shot anyway. Might as well try to get the fun and take them out first.

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to run in the opposite direction rather towards to gun-toting rednecks ?

Again, from the police report

The two grabbed a shotgun and a pistol and followed Arbery in their truck, police said. Travis McMichael, the driver, followed Arbery and then attempted to cut him off, the report said. Arbery turned around and began running in the opposite direction, the police report said.
They chased Arbery to a nearby intersection, where they caught up to him, the report said.

 

[TSwizzle]

All well and good but he still ran toward the stationary truck.

 

[cycomiko]

The video starts after he's obviously tried to run away and then one of the trucks pulls in front of him and the driver jumps out with a shotgun. So it seems that the options are to get shot in the back trying to run away or trying to disarm the guy with the gun.

I'm not sure that's the case. From what I saw the truck was parked a good distance in front of him and he continued to run towards it, then rounded toward the front of the truck where he's out of sight before coming back in to view struggling with one of the rednecks' gun. Do we know what role the person who took the video had in all of this ? Was that person part of the "posse" ?

A few very good questions there. Another would be "how long had they already been chasing him when the video started?". It looked to me like he was already tired from being chased and went right around that parked truck, which may have JUST parked there (define 'good distance'). Looked like he was starting to veer further to the right of the truck when he saw the man pointing a gun and engaged the guy to attempt to disarm him and save his own life.

Can we agree that common sense says to not go chasing people with guns drawn? Especially when they're not posing an immediate threat. From there we can discuss exactly who had the right to defend themselves.

 

[TSwizzle]

A few very good questions there. Another would be "how long had they already been chasing him when the video started?". It looked to me like he was already tired from being chased and went right around that parked truck, which may have JUST parked there (define 'good distance'). Looked like he was starting to veer further to the right of the truck when he saw the man pointing a gun and engaged the guy to attempt to disarm him and save his own life.

Well, I reckon Arbery saw the truck in plenty of time. And if he knew what was going on I think he could have made other choices rather than continue straight toward them. He could have done a right turn over the ditch or something.

Can we agree that common sense says to not go chasing people with guns drawn?

In most scenarios and certainly this one, I agree.

From there we can discuss exactly who had the right to defend themselves.

Well, you always have the right to defend yourself but it's not always the best strategy and can work against you.