Black Woman calling a White Woman a "Karen"

[Worldtraveller]

Lots of Karening going on around here.

Oh gawd - now it's a verb too?

It is now!

 

[Terrell]

I'd like to hear more from white women and black people on this issue. This overwhelmingly pasty white sausage fest is irrelevant at best.

Does the skin tone or genitalia of a person making any given argument change whether or not said argument is correct?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Lots of Karening going on around here.

Oh gawd - now it's a verb too?

Oh, you.

You can verbify anything.

 

[ronburgundy]

I'm not sure saying 'I hate women bosses' isn't sexist.

We do largely agree. And to clarify, I agree that one is conveying sexism by saying that sentence, and yet none of the individual words in the sentence are sexist just b/c they can be used that way. My point is that just because a term is sometimes used to convey sexism doesn't make it sexist term in itself. So, the words "bitch" and "Karen" being sometimes used in sexist ways doesn't make them sexist. Conveying the sentiment "That behavior is negative b/c your a women" is sexist, but conveying "that behavior is itself wrong and since you're a woman whose doing it I'm gonna use a sex-linked adjective" isn't sexist. It may seem like hairsplitting but I think it's critical, b/c blurring that distinction leads to invalid accusations of sexism and racism, such as in humor where many jokes that have gendered or racial aspects to them are wrongly labeled racist or sexist.

 

[Terrell]

I'm not sure saying 'I hate women bosses' isn't sexist.

We do largely agree. And to clarify, I agree that one is conveying sexism by saying that sentence, and yet none of the individual words in the sentence are sexist just b/c they can be used that way. My point is that just because a term is sometimes used to convey sexism doesn't make it sexist term in itself. So, the words "bitch" and "Karen" being sometimes used in sexist ways doesn't make them sexist. Conveying the sentiment "That behavior is negative b/c your a women" is sexist, but conveying "that behavior is itself wrong and since you're a woman whose doing it I'm gonna use a sex-linked adjective" isn't sexist. It may seem like hairsplitting but I think it's critical, b/c blurring that distinction leads to invalid accusations of sexism and racism, such as in humor where many jokes that have gendered or racial aspects to them are wrongly labeled racist or sexist.

Yeah; the same could be said for Dick describing a man behaving badly. Whether it's a nickname for Richard, or a euphemism for penis, either way it's sex based.

 

[blastula]

I said it wasn't sexist because it isn't about the gender of the person, it is about their attitude and what they are doing. If it were men doing it, they would probably be Darens, but it still wouldn't be about their gender, it would be about what they are doing.

Exactly. This all started with videos going viral of women calling the police because they saw black people. So it is racial in that it was showing people being racist. There was BBQ Becky, Permit Patty, etc, but somewhere along the line people gave up making new names and just settled on Karen.

I hate the Karen meme. Everybody needs to go back to making unique names for each case of public assholery, and then it would be less an issue of sexism or racism.

Like this lady should be Street Mural Mariah.

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/H_VmVRmxov4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Angry Floof]

I'd like to hear more from white women and black people on this issue. This overwhelmingly pasty white sausage fest is irrelevant at best.

Does the skin tone or genitalia of a person making any given argument change whether or not said argument is correct?

I'd like to hear their perspectives, not arguments. Skin tone and genitalia have a lot to do with a person's experiences in life and how they are affected by society's various attitudes. I don't give a shit about white men's perspective on this because they don't really have one, although they seem to believe that their perspective on anything is objective truth and see no need to venture beyond the ends of their own noses, and society doesn't prompt them to.

And of course, #notallmen.

 

[Terrell]

I'd like to hear more from white women and black people on this issue. This overwhelmingly pasty white sausage fest is irrelevant at best.

Does the skin tone or genitalia of a person making any given argument change whether or not said argument is correct?

I'd like to hear their perspectives, not arguments. Skin tone and genitalia have a lot to do with a person's experiences in life and how they are affected by society's various attitudes. I don't give a shit about white men's perspective on this because they don't really have one, although they seem to believe that their perspective on anything is objective truth and see no need to venture beyond the ends of their own noses, and society doesn't prompt them to.

And of course, #notallmen.

How do you know they don't have one? People are capable of observation of others and how they're treated, it's really a matter of whether or not they choose to. If they weren't why would there be White people who have worked to improve the lives of Black people. Those who opposed Jim Crow or Slavery would be obvious examples, but not the only ones.

If you're not willing to listen to the perspective of another, you have no moral standing to expect them to listen to yours.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'd like to hear their perspectives, not arguments. Skin tone and genitalia have a lot to do with a person's experiences in life and how they are affected by society's various attitudes. I don't give a shit about white men's perspective on this because they don't really have one, although they seem to believe that their perspective on anything is objective truth and see no need to venture beyond the ends of their own noses, and society doesn't prompt them to.

And of course, #notallmen.

How do you know they don't have one? People are capable of observation of others and how they're treated, it's really a matter of whether or not they choose to. If they weren't why would there be White people who have worked to improve the lives of Black people. Those who opposed Jim Crow or Slavery would be obvious examples, but not the only ones.

If you're not willing to listen to the perspective of another, you have no moral standing to expect them to listen to yours.

This is a great example of Karening. Someone who expects everyone to care about their privileged perspective and demands that that perspective must be acknowledged and heard, regardless of all the relevant perspectives they themselves are utterly oblivious to. And I'm not the one crying that no one's listening to my perspective. What I said was that I would like to hear the perspectives of people relevant to the Karen meme.

 

[Emily Lake]

I'd like to hear their perspectives, not arguments. Skin tone and genitalia have a lot to do with a person's experiences in life and how they are affected by society's various attitudes. I don't give a shit about white men's perspective on this because they don't really have one, although they seem to believe that their perspective on anything is objective truth and see no need to venture beyond the ends of their own noses, and society doesn't prompt them to.

And of course, #notallmen.

How do you know they don't have one? People are capable of observation of others and how they're treated, it's really a matter of whether or not they choose to. If they weren't why would there be White people who have worked to improve the lives of Black people. Those who opposed Jim Crow or Slavery would be obvious examples, but not the only ones.

If you're not willing to listen to the perspective of another, you have no moral standing to expect them to listen to yours.

Mmm... some yes and some no. Yes, there are people capable of observation of others and how they're treated, and yes, that's a valued ability.

On the other hand, there are a lot (and I do mean a LOT) of men who feel quite well-qualified to determine what is and what is not a big deal for women. You may not be much aware of how commonplace it is for a woman to voice a complaint about something that disadvantages her, to be met with a response akin to "It's not that big a deal, just calm down". It's not a big deal to them... but they're not the ones experiencing it.

As a woman, I can see an argument that "Karen" isn't sexist. I don't think that's really as true as you think it is, but I can see the argument at least. Arguing that it's not racist... that's a bit tougher to see. In application it's almost universally tied to skin color. It's like Chris Rock's argument that "n*****" isn't racist because it really only applies to people that act like that, and some white guys are like that too. It's bullshit, and just because there are a handful of exceptions who aren't white doesn't make it not essentially race-based.

When it comes to whether or not it's sexist, well, my opinion is that it is sexist, but also that it's small on the list of everyday sexism that women have to deal with. It's sexist not because it's a woman's name (that's simply sex-related, as already noted). It's sexist because the specific behavior being called out is a behavior that is associated with women in general. And in the few cases where it's being applied to a man, it's also being used to imply that they're being "girly" or in some fashion not masculine about how they approach the situation. It's a reflection of a characteristically female type of behavior.

"Soccer Mom" is sexist on the same basis. Not because "mom" is feminine in nature, but because the behavior itself is one that is characterized as a behavior exhibited by women. And yes, some guys might get referred to as a "Soccer Dad"... but in doing so it's also being implied that they're acting like a woman in that regard.

 

[laughing dog]

"Soccer Mom" is sexist on the same basis. Not because "mom" is feminine in nature, but because the behavior itself is one that is characterized as a behavior exhibited by women. And yes, some guys might get referred to as a "Soccer Dad"... but in doing so it's also being implied that they're acting like a woman in that regard.

No, it is not. I have watched and refereed a lot of child soccer. IMO, a "Soccer Dad" is an obnoxious nothing lout. Soccer Moms are nothing like that at all.

 

[laughing dog]

When I hear someone called a "Karen", I do not think of a white woman or someone behaving pooly. My immediate impulse is to think the person in question is from  Karen_people.

 

[Emily Lake]

When I hear someone called a "Karen", I do not think of a white woman or someone behaving pooly. My immediate impulse is to think the person in question is from  Karen_people.

Really? That's your first impulse? You just assume that it's referring to a little-known and very small group of people in Myanmar?

Maybe, sure, maybe you were already familiar with them and that really is the first thought that pops into your head. I'm inclined to think it's more of a shield to deflect with, and is something you have learned about after "Karen" became a common meme. But I'm not psychic, so I could be wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

When I hear someone called a "Karen", I do not think of a white woman or someone behaving pooly. My immediate impulse is to think the person in question is from  Karen_people.

Really? That's your first impulse? You just assume that it's referring to a little-known and very small group of people in Myanmar?

Maybe, sure, maybe you were already familiar with them and that really is the first thought that pops into your head. I'm inclined to think it's more of a shield to deflect with, and is something you have learned about after "Karen" became a common meme. But I'm not psychic, so I could be wrong.

I have been familiar with the Karen people for decades.

 

[Emily Lake]

When I hear someone called a "Karen", I do not think of a white woman or someone behaving pooly. My immediate impulse is to think the person in question is from  Karen_people.

Really? That's your first impulse? You just assume that it's referring to a little-known and very small group of people in Myanmar?

Maybe, sure, maybe you were already familiar with them and that really is the first thought that pops into your head. I'm inclined to think it's more of a shield to deflect with, and is something you have learned about after "Karen" became a common meme. But I'm not psychic, so I could be wrong.

I have been familiar with the Karen people for decades.

Okay Like I said, I'm not psychic.

 

[ronburgundy]

I'd like to hear more from white women and black people on this issue. This overwhelmingly pasty white sausage fest is irrelevant at best.

Does the skin tone or genitalia of a person making any given argument change whether or not said argument is correct?

I'd like to hear their perspectives, not arguments. Skin tone and genitalia have a lot to do with a person's experiences in life and how they are affected by society's various attitudes. I don't give a shit about white men's perspective on this because they don't really have one, although they seem to believe that their perspective on anything is objective truth and see no need to venture beyond the ends of their own noses, and society doesn't prompt them to.

And of course, #notallmen.

The OP main question was whether it is a racial slur. That is a factual question about reality as much as whether gravity exists. The subjective experience of the target is irrelevant to any rational answer. In fact, the targets never have needed heard the phrase and thus never had any subjective experience about it in order for the question to mean the same thing it currently means.

Your objection is equivalent to saying "I don't care what a bunch of white male doctors say about the question of whether black women who are shot in the heart are likely to die."

 

[Angry Floof]

I'd like to hear their perspectives, not arguments. Skin tone and genitalia have a lot to do with a person's experiences in life and how they are affected by society's various attitudes. I don't give a shit about white men's perspective on this because they don't really have one, although they seem to believe that their perspective on anything is objective truth and see no need to venture beyond the ends of their own noses, and society doesn't prompt them to.

And of course, #notallmen.

The OP main question was whether it is a racial slur. That is a factual question about reality as much as whether gravity exists. The subjective experience of the target is irrelevant to any rational answer. In fact, the targets never have needed heard the phrase and thus never had any subjective experience about it in order for the question to mean the same thing it currently means.

Your objection is equivalent to saying "I don't care what a bunch of white male doctors say about the question of whether black women who are shot in the heart are likely to die."

Not equivalent at all. Doctors, by virtue of their knowledge and training, can answer any medical question better than people who are not doctors. Being white and male doesn't give anyone special perspective. In fact, white male perspective is typically oblivious to the perspectives of people who are not like them.

And no, it is not a racial slur. For fuck's sake. You can stop Karening at any time by getting a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above, but you can't take off your skin. Karen's white skin is only relevant to the fact that she's a fucking racist who uses her white privilege to harass black people for no other reason than they are black and she has been indoctrinated to believe they are all criminals and she's allowed to abuse them because of their skin color.

Karens do not suffer for their skin color. They do get ridiculed and shamed for their ridiculous and shameful behavior, though.

 

[ronburgundy]

I'd like to hear their perspectives, not arguments. Skin tone and genitalia have a lot to do with a person's experiences in life and how they are affected by society's various attitudes. I don't give a shit about white men's perspective on this because they don't really have one, although they seem to believe that their perspective on anything is objective truth and see no need to venture beyond the ends of their own noses, and society doesn't prompt them to.

And of course, #notallmen.

The OP main question was whether it is a racial slur. That is a factual question about reality as much as whether gravity exists. The subjective experience of the target is irrelevant to any rational answer. In fact, the targets never have needed heard the phrase and thus never had any subjective experience about it in order for the question to mean the same thing it currently means.

Your objection is equivalent to saying "I don't care what a bunch of white male doctors say about the question of whether black women who are shot in the heart are likely to die."

Not equivalent at all. Doctors, by virtue of their knowledge and training, can answer any medical question better than people who are not doctors. Being white and male doesn't give anyone special perspective. In fact, white male perspective is typically oblivious to the perspectives of people who are not like them.

White male doctors have zero perspective on what it's like to be a black woman, so by your "logic" they are oblivious to how a black woman's heart reacts to being shot. The subjective feelings and "perspective" of targets of racism is no more relevant to whether an action is racist than the perspective of a target of a gun shot is to whether a bullet will physically damage their heart. How insulted a person feels about something doesn't determine what that something objectively is.

And no, it is not a racial slur. For fuck's sake. You can stop Karening at any time by getting a clue, or a heart, or an education, or all of the above, but you can't take off your skin. Karen's white skin is only relevant to the fact that she's a fucking racist who uses her white privilege to harass black people for no other reason than they are black and she has been indoctrinated to believe they are all criminals and she's allowed to abuse them because of their skin color.

Your very first post was "Karening" by making a moronic irrational and racist complaint that the ideas of people on a matter of objective fact were irrelevant solely b/c of their skin color. Oh, and let's not forget your transphobic claim that no one with a "sausage" is a "woman" (hoisted by your own petard).

[removed] I've said repeatedly that the "Karen" meme isn't itself racist, and did so making a far more coherent argument [removed]. But even though we agree on that conclusion, those like Ruby Sparks who disagree with you and somewhat with me have made a far more educated, honest, and rational argument for their position than you have.

 

[Angry Floof]

.snipped irrational hissy fit

People are not [removed] because they don't agree with you.(snip)

 

[Trausti]

Calling a woman a bitch or cunt is misogyny. Call her a Karen and you’re cool and witty. But only if she’s White.