Black Woman calling a White Woman a "Karen"

[Worldtraveller]

Blacks can and do make racial slurs and not just on whites, surprise!!!!

Blacks are human like everybody else. As was said, for me blacks and whites are usably nice with each other as most people are.

It is a surprise to the hardcore leftists because they always insist that black people can't be racist. It's an article of faith, kind of like how women never lie about rape.

The thing of it is blacks and whites from my experience are indeed pretty much the same in all aspects. Bigots to liberal.

The progressive view is get rid of those pesky whites and America becomes right and juts...with liberty and justice for all..

You have an over-abundance of straw.

 

[Angry Floof]

Right wing authoritarian followers have to cling to the "both sides are the same" bullshit. If they don't, they might have to honestly examine the distorted and inhumane nature of their own world view. Self reflection is not a strong trait of right wing mentality.

 

[ronburgundy]

So, saying that they have privilege now means they can't complain because they have privilege so now they don't have privilege.

Passive aggressive method to strip rights away.

No Karen's rights are being stripped. They try to strip away other's rights by calling the cops against black people for being black.

The criticism of them isn't that they are complaining in general, but that they have no legit complaint but b/c they view themselves as privileged and entitled to be treated as superior to others, especially non-whites, they call upon authorities to enforce this "natural order" and put the others in their place.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'd like to hear more from white women and black people on this issue. This overwhelmingly pasty white sausage fest is irrelevant at best.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's not a racial slur. It's not even sexist. You hit it on the head, it is about whiney bitches. The difference in this situation is that a Karen is normally calling the authorities while being a whiney bitch, and the press secretary is not doing that. Given that, I don't think it was appropriate to call her a Karen, but I suppose meaning can shift rapidly with this kind of thing, so whatever...

I don't believe I've yet to see the moniker applied to either a black woman or to a man of any sort, and certainly not in a serious fashion. I would be interested in seeing some evidence to the contrary.

 

[Emily Lake]

So back when Opie and Anthony used Tyrone and maybe Shaniqua as a shorthand for any black person it was similar to this now.

I found it just as disgusting then.

 

[KeepTalking]

It's not a racial slur. It's not even sexist. You hit it on the head, it is about whiney bitches. The difference in this situation is that a Karen is normally calling the authorities while being a whiney bitch, and the press secretary is not doing that. Given that, I don't think it was appropriate to call her a Karen, but I suppose meaning can shift rapidly with this kind of thing, so whatever...

I don't believe I've yet to see the moniker applied to either a black woman or to a man of any sort, and certainly not in a serious fashion. I would be interested in seeing some evidence to the contrary.

I will give you some time to catch up on the thread, examples of the latter have been provided.

 

[marc]

It's not a racial slur. It's not even sexist. You hit it on the head, it is about whiney bitches. The difference in this situation is that a Karen is normally calling the authorities while being a whiney bitch, and the press secretary is not doing that. Given that, I don't think it was appropriate to call her a Karen, but I suppose meaning can shift rapidly with this kind of thing, so whatever...

I don't believe I've yet to see the moniker applied to either a black woman or to a man of any sort, and certainly not in a serious fashion. I would be interested in seeing some evidence to the contrary.

Haven't seen any on black women, but been a few guys:

Palm Beach Ken calls cops on black woman for riding bike

Of course Ken and Karen, the couple pointing guns at protesters.


There are a lot more guys that the "Ken" label would apply to, but people don't seem to have fully settled on the best name for guys. There are actually a number of articles and reddit posts out there discussing it. Even saw in a reddit post a black guy being called a Karen, for trying to complain about his meal at a restaurant after eating nearly all of it.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's not a racial slur. It's not even sexist. You hit it on the head, it is about whiney bitches. The difference in this situation is that a Karen is normally calling the authorities while being a whiney bitch, and the press secretary is not doing that. Given that, I don't think it was appropriate to call her a Karen, but I suppose meaning can shift rapidly with this kind of thing, so whatever...

I don't believe I've yet to see the moniker applied to either a black woman or to a man of any sort, and certainly not in a serious fashion. I would be interested in seeing some evidence to the contrary.

I will give you some time to catch up on the thread, examples of the latter have been provided.

Yes, I saw them. Still haven't seen the term (or a male variant) applied to someone who is not white.

 

[Emily Lake]

I view it as a racist term, very much in the same vein as Leroy or Shaniqua or Jose for that matter. At the end of the day, probably not the worst thing ever. But I'm also strongly of the opinion that retaliation is seldom useful even when it's directed against the actual transgressor. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[marc]

I will give you some time to catch up on the thread, examples of the latter have been provided.

Yes, I saw them. Still haven't seen the term (or a male variant) applied to someone who is not white.

Two examples:

Black Male Karen

Black Woman Karen

and bonus, article by woman named Karen saying 'Karen' is not racist or sexist

 

[ronburgundy]

I am totally perplexed as to why some people are arguing the toss over this. It is de facto a case of a pejorative term having a slight negative racial and sexist aspect.

It’s a relatively lightweight example yes, and not of the same type as some others (does not apply to all white women for example, and existed before its most recent incarnation) but that’s hardly the initial point, which is that it is used as a pejorative term with a negative racial and sexist component.

After that, it can be said that it’s not that serious an issue really, compared to many others.

I think it's critical to distinguish a pejorative term that is applied base upon individual behaviours that are correlated with race versus a racist pejorative that assumes behavior based on race.

Calling a person a white supremacist is pejorative and is applied exclusively to whites, but if it's based upon an individual actually behaving in ways that reveal white supremacist ideology is it racist to call someone that?

There is that distinction, yes. In some ways at least, though not entirely, it's a bit like Shylock, where a Jew usually has to be seen to behave badly (be money-grabbing) before the term is applied (though it can bleed over into an assumption that most or all of the target group are at least somewhat Shylocks, even if money-matters only get mentioned by them, which may happen with middle-class, middle-aged white women who complain, and I think has, to some extent). That said, I don't feel comfortable saying there isn't still at least a small, perhaps insidious racial and sexist component to, well not just the word (Karen), but the fact that its use has spread like a (small) wildfire on the internet and into common everyday language. It's a bit like the word bitch, except (a) it's a woman's name in this case (which is a bit of a pity for women called Karen, especially if they are middle class, middle-aged and white) and (b) bitch is used for all races.

I would ask whether the word bitch is in fact used in situations where a woman is merely being assertive, in a way that would not be (as readily) considered worthy of a pejorative for a man; that there is a perceived lower threshold for female behaviour in other words. The Karen in one of the videos above, for example, was objecting to what looked like about 20-30 'awesomely noisy' (male commentators words, if I recall correctly) souped-up cars being driven through and revved up in what looked like the otherwise quiet residential street that she lived on. To me that's not an unreasonable complaint, and even peaceably standing in the road to try to stop them doing it does not seem an entirely unreasonable piece of direct action (she didn't, as far as I could see 'lose it') although a different mode of complaint might have been better (but possibly nothing would have been done).

What's next, middle-aged women at board meetings feeling they can't strongly disagree with something in case they are afterwards labelled a Karen?

So I'm thinking that if you are a middle-class, middle-aged white woman and you complain about something, you are in danger of becoming a Karen almost by default.

Sure, all terms get misapplied and overgeneralized, especially memes. Using such memes on the internet is almost a game to people, like how many places can I say "That's what she said." So, it isn't the Karen concept that's the problem, it's lazy misuse and over-application of words, which has been taken to exponential heights by meme culture. But whether some applications of a term are racist doesn't make the term itself racist. Going back to "white supremacist", if one uses it against any white person regardless of whether they are displaying the defining individual characteristics, then that would be a racist application. So, such application don't make the term itself racist, unless they become the so dominant that such misuse changes what the term means to a racist meaning. In my prior post I almost talked about the analogy to "bitch". Bitch is a sexed pejorative, but that in itself doesn't make it sexist any more than "prick" is sexist b/c it's applied to males. Uses of "bitch" can be sexist when it's used to promote the sexist idea that it's inappropriate for women to be assertive to the level that men are without being criticized for it. But sexist use doesn't make the words sexist. IF I say, "I hate women bosses.", none of the words in that sentence are sexist as a result. If we insist that bitch is in itself sexist and can't be used, then a new word will simply emerge to mean the same as the original valid non-sexist mean and people will start misusing that word, and round and round we go.

All that said, I'm not losing any sleep over this. It obviously pales into relatively trivial insignificance compared to many other issues. But then it's not aimed at me because I'm not a middle-class, middle-aged white woman. And I know that the term Karen (a bit like bitch) is sometimes used for men, and indeed black men, but mostly not, and there is the male equivalent of Karen (Ken, or is it Kevin) but again that doesn't seem to be cited nearly as often.

Part of it may be that male's with a similar mentality are more likely to engage in a physical confrontation than a "call the manager" approach, so the concept simply doesn't apply as often to males. But I have heard the joke "What do you call a male "Karen"? Answer: Karen." which is clearly sexist.

Also, it is likely that male and females qualitatively differ in how and when they complain.
This research suggested that women who complain to management are more likely to vent anger and emotions generally, and more likely to complain when their is no material benefit but just so they can tell the company they did something wrong, get an apology or demand respect. Whereas males tend to complain to managers mostly as a strategy to get material compensation.

IOW, female customers are more likely to engage in the type of angry complaining where they're trying to shame the other party and demand to be respected, which is entertaining fodder for viral videos and thus for memes.

I admit I haven't seen many male anti-mask protesters labelled a Karen (or even a Kevin), although I guess there may be examples.
In fact anti-mask pejorative terms other than 'anti-masker' seem to have mostly become associated with women, even though there seem to be about as many male anti-maskers (I haven't done a survey).

I don't see Karen applied to anti-maskers in general for either sex, only those specific instances of some going on a verbal rampage and screaming in store employees faces, and I've seen almost entirely videos of women doing that.
I don't deny the sexist attitude that women are more criticized than men for complaining or being confrontational. But I also think there is something about memes that take off and those that don't that's hard to pin down. The emotionalism of the complaint determines it's viral value which determines whether a meme about it is formed and widely spread. Also, there's something about the name "Karen" that is so generic and plain and in itself that using as a pejorative is amusing to people.

BTW, I have seen a couple polls showing more men are anti-maskers (makes sense since more men are mindless right wing Trumpsters).

I also don't tend to buy the claim that something isn't racist or sexist just because it's aimed at someone in a generally dominant or privileged group. It's still what it is, imo, although it can be said that its effects are usually much less severe, and so two otherwise like-for-like cases of it arguably shouldn't be put on a par.

I don't buy that claim either, and to be clear I didn't make that claim. I said that having a bias towards one's marginalized minority group can be similar to promoting pride in one's minority group which can be a non-racist self-defense against long standing racism by the majority. It's technically still "discrimination" in the most general sense of the term, but it may not motivated by racism, in contrast to deliberate and overt bias and pride by majority group members who don't have a plausible self defense motive to discriminate, and thus it's more a reflection of racist belief of their group's superiority.

Apparently like yourself, I reject the leftist assertion that non-whites cannot be racist, using the meaning of the term that applies to an individuals psychological processes (and thus group power dynamics that determine the aggregate harm of such thinking is irrelevant). Clearly non-whites are capable of bigotries, so if they are capable of bigotries that distinguish by race (and unless they have different brain they must be), then they are capable of physiological racism, even if it doesn't qualify as institutional racism with sociological theories.

 

[ronburgundy]

I'd like to hear more from white women and black people on this issue. This overwhelmingly pasty white sausage fest is irrelevant at best.

This statement is far more sexist and racist than calling someone "Karen".

Everything under discussion are questions of fact, so what is irrelevant is the sex and race of anyone in this discussion. Also, you are being transphobic by assuming that people with "sausages" aren't women.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am totally perplexed as to why some people are arguing the toss over this. It is de facto a case of a pejorative term having a slight negative racial and sexist aspect.

It’s a relatively lightweight example yes, and not of the same type as some others (does not apply to all white women for example, and existed before its most recent incarnation) but that’s hardly the initial point, which is that it is used as a pejorative term with a negative racial and sexist component.

After that, it can be said that it’s not that serious an issue really, compared to many others.

"Karen" is a female name so you could make a case for sexist. I have a big problem with "pejorative", though--people are called Karens because of their behavior, not for being middle aged white females. It is a description, it is not any sort of pre-judgment.

 

[ruby sparks]

I have a big problem with "pejorative", though--people are called Karens because of their behavior, not for being middle aged white females. It is a description, it is not any sort of pre-judgment.

I disagree, for two reasons. First, see my previous post about it being casually used when the behaviour is not really what the term is for (in other words where it's misused) and second, it's definitely a pejorative in any case, in that it expresses disapproval, which is all a pejorative is.

 

[Worldtraveller]

It's not a racial slur. It's not even sexist. You hit it on the head, it is about whiney bitches. The difference in this situation is that a Karen is normally calling the authorities while being a whiney bitch, and the press secretary is not doing that. Given that, I don't think it was appropriate to call her a Karen, but I suppose meaning can shift rapidly with this kind of thing, so whatever...

I don't believe I've yet to see the moniker applied to either a black woman or to a man of any sort, and certainly not in a serious fashion. I would be interested in seeing some evidence to the contrary.

You should get out more. We (collectively, including me, personally) have used it on men fairly regularly. It was only recently that Kyle or Chad were offered as male equivalents and have seen more widespread use.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I have a big problem with "pejorative", though--people are called Karens because of their behavior, not for being middle aged white females. It is a description, it is not any sort of pre-judgment.

I disagree, for two reasons. First, see my previous post about it being casually used when the behaviour is not really what the term is for (in other words where it's misused) and second, it's definitely a pejorative in any case, in that it expresses disapproval, which is all a pejorative is.

Ok, Karen.

 

[Angry Floof]

Lots of Karening going on around here.

 

[ruby sparks]

Sure, all terms get misapplied and overgeneralized, especially memes. Using such memes on the internet is almost a game to people, like how many places can I say "That's what she said." So, it isn't the Karen concept that's the problem, it's lazy misuse and over-application of words, which has been taken to exponential heights by meme culture. But whether some applications of a term are racist doesn't make the term itself racist. Going back to "white supremacist", if one uses it against any white person regardless of whether they are displaying the defining individual characteristics, then that would be a racist application. So, such application don't make the term itself racist, unless they become the so dominant that such misuse changes what the term means to a racist meaning. In my prior post I almost talked about the analogy to "bitch". Bitch is a sexed pejorative, but that in itself doesn't make it sexist any more than "prick" is sexist b/c it's applied to males. Uses of "bitch" can be sexist when it's used to promote the sexist idea that it's inappropriate for women to be assertive to the level that men are without being criticized for it. But sexist use doesn't make the words sexist. IF I say, "I hate women bosses.", none of the words in that sentence are sexist as a result. If we insist that bitch is in itself sexist and can't be used, then a new word will simply emerge to mean the same as the original valid non-sexist mean and people will start misusing that word, and round and round we go.

Thanks. My initial reaction is to think that this is too small an issue to have an even more prolonged debate about, but I'll pick up on a few things, without expecting to necessarily nail anything, because I don't think we disagree too much.

'White Supremacist' is an interesting one, but it's not always a pejorative, which Karen is.

I'm not sure saying 'I hate women bosses' isn't sexist.

I'm still not entirely comfortable saying the word Karen isn't slightly racist or sexist, even after agreeing with you that it would be about usage rather than the word, the pejorative word, of itself. For example, I read the black woman using the word in the OP to be a fair comeback on someone being unnecessarily rude and judgemental towards her.

I hear what you say about the different ways men and woman may express anger or complaint.

I don't see Karen applied to anti-maskers in general for either sex,

During my googling I found that one use of 'Karen' is now for female anti-maskers, apparently.

...only those specific instances of some going on a verbal rampage and screaming in store employees faces, and I've seen almost entirely videos of women doing that.

I did find some footage of those sorts of male Karens, and indeed one of a black male Karen of that sort (part of the problem is that the word is being used for several things now). If the use spreads to other types of people than white, middle-aged, middle-class women, then there'll be less cause to worry that it's sexist, racist (or even ageist, a complaint that I read of). All that might be left then is to sympathise with people actually called Karen. And only some of those, since apparently some don't mind.

I don't buy that claim either, and to be clear I didn't make that claim. I said that having a bias towards one's marginalized minority group can be similar to promoting pride in one's minority group which can be a non-racist self-defense against long standing racism by the majority. It's technically still "discrimination" in the most general sense of the term, but it may not motivated by racism, in contrast to deliberate and overt bias and pride by majority group members who don't have a plausible self defense motive to discriminate, and thus it's more a reflection of racist belief of their group's superiority.

Apparently like yourself, I reject the leftist assertion that non-whites cannot be racist, using the meaning of the term that applies to an individuals psychological processes (and thus group power dynamics that determine the aggregate harm of such thinking is irrelevant). Clearly non-whites are capable of bigotries, so if they are capable of bigotries that distinguish by race (and unless they have different brain they must be), then they are capable of physiological racism, even if it doesn't qualify as institutional racism with sociological theories.

Gotcha.

 

[Elixir]

Lots of Karening going on around here.

Oh gawd - now it's a verb too?