Veterans with bad attitudes

[Brian63]

“Thank you for your service.”

That is a phrase often spoken to those (at least in the U.S. here) who have served in the military, especially those who have fought in battles and risked their lives. However, I have plenty of mixed sentiments regarding that.

1. Plenty of people did not volunteer to join the military for any kind of noble purpose or defense of others. They did so because their life was at a low point and they had no other options, or they were drafted into a war despite attempting to avoid it, etc. So their motivations were not charitable, and perhaps were selfish, even if their actions still coincidentally benefited me. Should I really bother expressing gratitude to them?
2. Many veterans develop very ugly personas. They can be arrogant, jerks, bullying, etc. They will have horrible political, social, and ethical views fueled in part by their alpha-male machismo attitudes. They exploit the rest of us who have not served in the military (raises hand), by effectively treating us as inferior to them.

How do you interact with veterans who fit the above descriptions? There are some in my family and plenty more encountered online who behave as such. Their ugly personalities may be the result of numerous factors, some related to their military experiences (PTSD?) and others that are entirely unrelated. It is still difficult to navigate through conversations with such fiercely combative people. I have conflicting feelings towards them.

 

[Jarhyn]

“Thank you for your service.”

That is a phrase often spoken to those (at least in the U.S. here) who have served in the military, especially those who have fought in battles and risked their lives. However, I have plenty of mixed sentiments regarding that.

1. Plenty of people did not volunteer to join the military for any kind of noble purpose or defense of others. They did so because their life was at a low point and they had no other options, or they were drafted into a war despite attempting to avoid it, etc. So their motivations were not charitable, and perhaps were selfish, even if their actions still coincidentally benefited me. Should I really bother expressing gratitude to them?
2. Many veterans develop very ugly personas. They can be arrogant, jerks, bullying, etc. They will have horrible political, social, and ethical views fueled in part by their alpha-male machismo attitudes. They exploit the rest of us who have not served in the military (raises hand), by effectively treating us as inferior to them.

How do you interact with veterans who fit the above descriptions? There are some in my family and plenty more encountered online who behave as such. Their ugly personalities may be the result of numerous factors, some related to their military experiences (PTSD?) and others that are entirely unrelated. It is still difficult to navigate through conversations with such fiercely combative people. I have conflicting feelings towards them.

I'm a veteran myself, so I can usually pull that out and then talk about how they just want to play 'Vietnam Wars' pity party shit and then describing that behavior (my life is worse than your life I was in 'nam), and how it is merely masturbatory. If it's more "I'm tough I was in the army", I can always roll out the veritable parade of shit bags, racists, and violent bullies I knew from my service.

The answer here may be to bring a veteran who isn't a shitty person.

Edit: Oh, and if they bring in PTSD I suggest they look up MAPS and check out their MDMA trials.

One thing to remember: any veteran who talks about the shit they wound up in, unbidden, is a piece of shit. We don't talk about it and you shouldn't ask outside of asking as family in somber and private settings. Avoid them. This is one of the brightest red flags that exist in regards to veterans. I will note an exception here insofar as some may discuss it from the perspective of the shame and pain it makes them feel.

 

[Angry Floof]

Don't worry about interacting with them. Instead, challenge a status quo that preys on impoverished young people to risk their lives for an education, a job that pays more than minimum wage, decent benefits, and useful experience, and the same status quo that reinforces aggression, entitlement, and authoritarianism, while at the same time sacrificing idealized young men to a stupid patriarchal social framework.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't thank anonymous for anonymous acts. Hero, sociopath?

There is an unhealthy default worship for anonymous people that are in or were in the military.

 

[SLD]

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Eh. We made a choice.

Whether you approve of the choice, or the reason for the choice, or the personal developments typically associated with the consequences of the choice, consider that enough of us made the choice such that they didn't bring back the draft.

 

[Jarhyn]

Eh. We made a choice.

Whether you approve of the choice, or the reason for the choice, or the personal developments typically associated with the consequences of the choice, consider that enough of us made the choice such that they didn't bring back the draft.

Pretty much. The reasons are wide and varied. Some because they wish to murder people, some because they wish to save people, and many just because they didn't see much else staring at them from the double-barrel of life.

It's good that some volunteered so we aren't all volun-told, but the only persons for whom any honor is deserved for this choice are exactly the people who will not seek it, and who would argue that it is no honor for the cost was too high.

 

[LoAmmo]

Whenever I encounter the "thank you for your service" comment, I try to be gracious about it and remember that the person is simply expressing some genuine appreciation.

I don't figure it's my place to say what I'm thinking, which is a mixture of, "Well, that's nice, but I really didn't do it for you," "Thank you for your service" has become a meaningless auto-response like "Have a Nice Day," and a slight irritation that the Republican party has so thoroughly hijacked military service appreciation that it somehow "taints" an expression of it to some degree. This is all internal, though.

Externally, I always smile and thank the person for their acknowledgement-- usually adding a humorous aside like "Oh, it was my pleasure. Most of the time, haha." One of my standard responses was, "Thank YOU for being a taxpayer all those years--we had some pretty expensive toys back in the day, haha."

I don't need to hear it, and don't even particularly want to, but I never make a person sorry they said it. Mentally, I usually remind myself that in a very tangible way I'm "accepting" this appreciation on behalf of service members I knew, or for that matter didn't know, who aren't around to hear it for themselves...which is another reason to accept it graciously and move on.

 

[Harry Bosch]

“Thank you for your service.”

That is a phrase often spoken to those (at least in the U.S. here) who have served in the military, especially those who have fought in battles and risked their lives. However, I have plenty of mixed sentiments regarding that.

1. Plenty of people did not volunteer to join the military for any kind of noble purpose or defense of others. They did so because their life was at a low point and they had no other options, or they were drafted into a war despite attempting to avoid it, etc. So their motivations were not charitable, and perhaps were selfish, even if their actions still coincidentally benefited me. Should I really bother expressing gratitude to them?
2. Many veterans develop very ugly personas. They can be arrogant, jerks, bullying, etc. They will have horrible political, social, and ethical views fueled in part by their alpha-male machismo attitudes. They exploit the rest of us who have not served in the military (raises hand), by effectively treating us as inferior to them.

How do you interact with veterans who fit the above descriptions? There are some in my family and plenty more encountered online who behave as such. Their ugly personalities may be the result of numerous factors, some related to their military experiences (PTSD?) and others that are entirely unrelated. It is still difficult to navigate through conversations with such fiercely combative people. I have conflicting feelings towards them.

So, you're saying that when you thank some service members for the their service, that some of them treat you bad? Some of them are arrogant and/or bullying? I'm a veteran. I've never run into this type of veteran before. I'm sure that there are some out there. To me, Trump is incredibly arrogant. He's a jerk and a bully. But he never served a day in his life! I've met plenty of people who would meet your description above that were not veterans.

 

[Brian63]

I have family members who are veterans, and who are also assholes. Complete MAGA idiots too. Have encountered plenty of strangers online who have that personality too (but I do not know them personally at all).

Those ones I have not thanked for their service. Partly because it is very superficial, a matter of routine to say. Like saying "please" or "thank you" to a stranger. If they really did act honorably, then me merely saying that phrase does not do enough to express my gratitude. If they served for selfish reasons, then I really do not care about thanking them. It is very hard to figure out what the appropriate amount of gratitude I should express is for different people and at different times. The whole exchange is awkward.

Also, if people are now assholes and bullies, then I care less about any time they have served in the military years ago. That does not morally excuse them to be a jackass now.

 

[Patooka]

It's been my experience that the people who desire "Thank you for your service" the most deserve it the least.
But it doesn't cost me anything, it doesn't end the world so thank you.
Having said that, I go all fanboy whenever I meet a paramedic. Those people have a cunt and a half of a job.

 

[Politesse]

I try to be polite to the professional killers I meet, just as a generally sensible policy.

 

[Brian63]

But it doesn't cost me anything,...

That part I would disagree with. I do feel empty whenever I effectively let these assholes beat me up with that shtick of "I'm a veteran, so you better thank me no matter how much of a sexist, racist, abusive asshole I am." If I do not help put a stop to it, then they will keep using that tactic on others. Successfully.

Having said that, I go all fanboy whenever I meet a paramedic. Those people have a cunt and a half of a job.

Definitely. Doctors, nurses, etc. have incredibly stressful and traumatizing jobs. They deserve a lot of gratitude from those us who benefit from their willingness to provide care.

 

[TV and credit cards]

After twenty-three years in the navy I can say (you might want to sit down for this) it was pretty much representative of the population of the US. I cannot not say there were any more assholes in the navy community than there are in my now civilian community. In fact, I would probably have to give the navy community the nod. I think it might stem from the sense of community in the navy. I believe this extends from the teamwork among active duty members. I guess when your entire neighborhood is subject to sinking, the teamwork concept comes easy. This teamwork seems to bleed over into the families of military members. Something else that probably bleeds over into military communities is respect. What is required between you and your shipmates does not stop at brow. It comes home with you and is extended between you and your neighbors. I don't miss much about the navy but I do miss living in navy housing at Miramar in SD. Yes, even a social misfit such as myself enjoyed this sense of community.

"Thank you for your service"? Nothing but a platitude. Shall I stop the individual and give him my two cents? Nah. Just let it go. Perhaps if the individual spent some small portion of his life serving someone other than himself he'd have a better understanding. Oh well, I guess some people need something to make them feel patriotic and perhaps thanking someone else for serving their country is it.

Did I join for economic reasons? Yes. It's been my observation most enlisted personnel did. I'm sure we all have our unique stories but it all ends the same: None of us were going to college on a scholarship nor did we have parents who could carry us. You know, I think about all the folks who complain about the mountain of tuition debt they carry through life and ponder why they didn't just join the military for one tour. One tour and they could have gone to any state institution their heart desired, gotten E5 BAH, and another thousand a year for books. But they didn't. Must have been their moral fiber that kept them from doing so.

 

[Old Woman in Purple]

Must have been their moral fiber that kept them from doing so.

At 17.5 yo, when I graduated from high school [an epoch ago], it wasn't my 'moral fiber' that kept me out of the military, but the fact that I never would have made it thru boot camp. As a bookworm with significant pollen/mold/dust allergies [so simply breathing is a challenge without meds most of the year], I've always been kinda the opposite of 'athletic'.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Me too, and I would have been forced to request the veggie entrees at mess and in the MREs. And please, prepare any fried foods with canola or EVOO.

 

[Jarhyn]

Must have been their moral fiber that kept them from doing so.

At 17.5 yo, when I graduated from high school [an epoch ago], it wasn't my 'moral fiber' that kept me out of the military, but the fact that I never would have made it thru boot camp. As a bookworm with significant pollen/mold/dust allergies [so simply breathing is a challenge without meds most of the year], I've always been kinda the opposite of 'athletic'.

So, you already have seen my position when it comes to enlistment: that it is a mixed bag and dubious honor even for the best of us.

That said, you have just described me. I just kind of forced myself through it. "Getting through it anyway" was one of the greatest accomplishments of my life, and one of the most valuable lessons: I know now that no matter how shitty things get I can generally manage to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

“Thank you for your service.”

That is a phrase often spoken to those (at least in the U.S. here) who have served in the military, especially those who have fought in battles and risked their lives. However, I have plenty of mixed sentiments regarding that.

1. Plenty of people did not volunteer to join the military for any kind of noble purpose or defense of others. They did so because their life was at a low point and they had no other options, or they were drafted into a war despite attempting to avoid it, etc. So their motivations were not charitable, and perhaps were selfish, even if their actions still coincidentally benefited me. Should I really bother expressing gratitude to them?
2. Many veterans develop very ugly personas. They can be arrogant, jerks, bullying, etc. They will have horrible political, social, and ethical views fueled in part by their alpha-male machismo attitudes. They exploit the rest of us who have not served in the military (raises hand), by effectively treating us as inferior to them.

How do you interact with veterans who fit the above descriptions? There are some in my family and plenty more encountered online who behave as such. Their ugly personalities may be the result of numerous factors, some related to their military experiences (PTSD?) and others that are entirely unrelated. It is still difficult to navigate through conversations with such fiercely combative people. I have conflicting feelings towards them.

The only relevant question is do you actually appreciate their act of service or not? If not, then no thanks is necessary as it is just another hollow platitude. If you do appreciate the act but are reluctant to show it because of their behavior, attitude, politics, etc. then that is another issue entirely. In either case, this has more to do with you and what you control than them.

aa

 

[Brian63]

There is more to it than that. Whether I appreciate their act of service depends in part on *why* they did it. If they joined the military for selfish reasons, and by sheer luck it happened to benefit me as well, then I am not thankful in the same way as I am towards someone that joins the military for altruistic reasons (which also benefit me).

Also, I do not know the best way to express my gratitude. I dislike routine platitudes. The recipient may also see it the same way. I want them to know I mean it more sincerely, but I do not know the right way to express that. I do not want to bother them for any extra seconds either. For all I know, they 1. Have gotten sick of hearing "Thank you for your service." 2. Do not want to discuss it with strangers at all, and just want to be on their own way.

 

[Toni]

Don't worry about interacting with them. Instead, challenge a status quo that preys on impoverished young people to risk their lives for an education, a job that pays more than minimum wage, decent benefits, and useful experience, and the same status quo that reinforces aggression, entitlement, and authoritarianism, while at the same time sacrificing idealized young men to a stupid patriarchal social framework.

^^this^^

But let's not forget to include young women in this group. They, too, also enlist in the army/navy/marines/Air Force or the Guard or the Reserves because, frankly, they need the money. Desperately.

We should not require young people sign up to kill other people in order to be able to afford an education. Or a life just north of poverty. It is immoral and repugnant on every level.

My kid enlisted for some of the reasons you listed. He was not impoverished and had parents who had the wherewithal and will and willingness to ensure he got the education he wanted and to help out in any temporary financial shortfall. But...he enlisted when he felt himself at a crossroads and maybe not THE low point, but a low point in his life. And then he re-upped for the Reserves when he found the civilian life and location he had chosen to not provide him with enough to give him a decent, relatively secure life---despite working full time with many hours of overtime. There are tens of thousands of young adults like him: they struggle financially, professionally. Sometimes, personally. They want to belong to something bigger than themselves. They want to serve. How can I argue with wanting to better themselves? To serve? To belong to something bigger than themselves? But tell me why we cannot use those wonderful impulses for some better cause than war.

I am young enough that boys in my high school class and the one before me did not get drafted for Viet Nam but old enough to have had several cousins who did get drafted. And old enough to remember some of the nastiness that too many vets faced when they returned home. I'm not even talking the distrust or the PTSD or the ignored medical and psychiatric needs or need for decent jobs, education, housing, health care.

BTW, that's part of the trap: The army provides so much for you: housing, medical care, food. For your dependents as well, at least sometimes. It makes it harder for service members who do not have a strong outside support system to move out of the military and the military exploits this something fierce to retain soldiers. When my son was in Afghanistan, almost immediately, the pressure began to re-enlist, although he had a couple of years left in his enlistment. Even though he had a running list of reasons (100+) not to re-enlist--he felt the temptation. The sense of duty towards your fellow soldiers is really, really strong.

I confess that it makes me sick to my stomach to see people reach out for my son when he's in uniform to 'thank him for his service.' I have to swallow that bit of vomit that rises in my mouth every. single. time. and force a grateful smile onto my lips. What I really want to do is to scream in their faces and then smack them hard. It's not noble of me or nice or even just. It's an emotional reaction. My opinion is that the best way to thank service members for their sacrifice is to reduce the need for such sacrifice.