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US student loans grotesquely high

The Myth of Working Your Way Through College - Svati Kirsten Narula - The Atlantic - from 2014 April
A lot of Internet ink has been spilled over how lazy and entitled Millennials are, but when it comes to paying for a college education, work ethic isn't the limiting factor. The economic cards are stacked such that today’s average college student, without support from financial aid and family resources, would need to complete 48 hours of minimum-wage work a week to pay for his courses—a feat that would require superhuman endurance, or maybe a time machine.
The numbers for Michigan State University:
In 1979, when the minimum wage was $2.90, a hard-working student with a minimum-wage job could earn enough in one day (8.44 hours) to pay for one academic credit hour. If a standard course load for one semester consisted of maybe 12 credit hours, the semester's tuition could be covered by just over two weeks of full-time minimum wage work—or a month of part-time work. A summer spent scooping ice cream or flipping burgers could pay for an MSU education.

The cost of an MSU credit hour has multiplied since 1979. So has the federal minimum wage. But today, it takes 60 hours of minimum-wage work to pay off a single credit hour, which was priced at $428.75 for the fall semester.
An increase by a factor of 7. So those who smugly brag about how they worked their way through college are all wrong about today. They might have been able to, some decades ago, but most present-day students can't.

It's not just MSU.
He added a linear regression analysis to extrapolate the stats for 1979-2013, and found that the average student in 1979 could work 182 hours (a part-time summer job) to pay for a year's tuition. In 2013, it took 991 hours (a full-time job for half the year) to accomplish the same.

And this is only considering the cost of tuition, which is hardly an accurate representation of what students actually spend for college. According to the College Board, average room and board fees at public universities today exceed tuition costs by a little more than 100 percent. (For the current academic year, average tuition at 4-year public schools is $8,893, but with room and board, the total average cost comes to $18,391.)
That makes it a year of full-time work to pay for a year of college.
 
The real issue with Student Loans is that the price of the education doesn't seem to match current market trends for the jobs. For example if the lawyer market is saturated the price for law school should reflect that saturation by being cheaper. High demand jobs should cost more since you're nearly guaranteed to profit from that education meaning the lender is more likely to get their money back. In my opinion, if you're a dumb ass lender that's your fault and the courts shouldn't back your dumbass decision to lend the money.

No, that's just a case of kicking the can--you'll get students with degrees that aren't worth it, a lifetime problem for them. The cost to the student should go up in the saturated fields--reduce the number of students that take that route.

I have no knowledge of how the student loan industry actually works so I'm guilty of blowing hot air here. Degrees that aren't worth it are degrees in markets where the jobs are in low demand. It makes no sense for something in low demand to cost more than something that is in high demand. High demand jobs means business' would offer high pay to compete for talent and students who take out loans for those jobs have a higher chance of finding one in their field and thus being able to pay the student loan. It's not kicking the can, it's knowing your market. But who cares about knowing the market when you don't have to? If you don't have to worry about where the payments for the loans will come from then you don't price based on the market you price based on the courts or insurance (or whatever backs it). I'm of the mind that as a business if your product sucks it makes sense to lose money. In the case of student loans, the schools set the price and the lender seeks a profit on top of that price. It's on the school for charging too much for the degrees, the lender for basing their loans on school prices that don't match market trends and the borrower for accepting that overpriced rubbish. All of this should play out in the markets and not in the courts where consumers are forced to pay for a useless product.
 
The real issue with Student Loans is that the price of the education doesn't seem to match current market trends for the jobs. For example if the lawyer market is saturated the price for law school should reflect that saturation by being cheaper. High demand jobs should cost more since you're nearly guaranteed to profit from that education meaning the lender is more likely to get their money back. In my opinion, if you're a dumb ass lender that's your fault and the courts shouldn't back your dumbass decision to lend the money.

No, that's just a case of kicking the can--you'll get students with degrees that aren't worth it, a lifetime problem for them. The cost to the student should go up in the saturated fields--reduce the number of students that take that route.

I have no knowledge of how the student loan industry actually works so I'm guilty of blowing hot air here. Degrees that aren't worth it are degrees in markets where the jobs are in low demand. It makes no sense for something in low demand to cost more than something that is in high demand. High demand jobs means business' would offer high pay to compete for talent and students who take out loans for those jobs have a higher chance of finding one in their field and thus being able to pay the student loan. It's not kicking the can, it's knowing your market. But who cares about knowing the market when you don't have to? If you don't have to worry about where the payments for the loans will come from then you don't price based on the market you price based on the courts or insurance (or whatever backs it). I'm of the mind that as a business if your product sucks it makes sense to lose money. In the case of student loans, the schools set the price and the lender seeks a profit on top of that price. It's on the school for charging too much for the degrees, the lender for basing their loans on school prices that don't match market trends and the borrower for accepting that overpriced rubbish. All of this should play out in the markets and not in the courts where consumers are forced to pay for a useless product.

You're trying to balance the wrong thing. We shouldn't be trying to make law training cheaper because there's less need for it, that's just making more problems down the road.
 
Rep. Ayanna Pressley has now issued a challenge to soon-to-be-President Biden. As she explains, he can do bold actions. If he wants to be remembered as a latter-day FDR, he can easily start with FDR-like actions like these.

Pressley, Omar, Waters, Adams Introduce Bold Resolution Calling on President-Elect Biden to Cancel $50,000 in Federal Student Loan Debt | Representative Ayanna Pressley
The student debt crisis is a racial and economic justice issue and we must finally begin to address it as such. Broad-based student debt cancellation is precisely the kind of bold, high-impact policy that the broad and diverse coalition that elected Joe Biden and Kamala Harris expect them to deliver,” said Congresswoman Pressley. “As we work to fight for meaningful economic relief for workers and families that meets the scale and scope of the crisis we face, canceling student debt is one of the most effective ways to provide direct relief to millions, help reduce the racial wealth gap, stimulate our economy, and begin to deliver an equitable and just recovery. On day one of his Administration, President-elect Biden will have the executive authority to cancel billions in student debt with the stroke of a pen. This resolution lays out a plan for him to do exactly that.”

“Over 90 percent of student debt is held by the federal government, which President-elect Joe Biden can cancel with the stroke of a pen,” said Congresswoman Omar. “Young people have been devastated by this economic crisis, with more than half living with their parents. Student debt cancellation would be a massive economic stimulus at a time when people desperately need it. It’s also a racial equity issue. Students of color are more likely to take out federal student loans, and face higher rates of default. That’s why I introduced the Student Debt Cancellation Act last year, and have called on leaders to make student debt relief a centerpiece of a coronavirus response package. It’s why a majority of the country supports student debt relief. And it’s why leaders from both Houses of Congress for substantial relief. Student debt cancellation isn’t just an economic priority, it is a moral necessity.”

“As the student debt crisis continues to grow more urgent and the COVID-19 pandemic crisis continues to impact our communities and economy, the need to provide relief to student loan borrowers buried under mountains of debt is critical,” said Chairwoman Maxine Waters. “As a leader on this issue, I held a Financial Services Committee hearing last year on the student debt crisis and its adverse impact on individuals, families, and the economy. I helped to secure critical protections for student borrowers, including a pause on student loans during the pandemic, and advocated for legislation to help borrowers affected by the student debt crisis. Most recently, I wrote to President-elect Biden to recommend that he issue an executive order to promptly forgive up to $50,000 of debt for each student borrower and I am so pleased to join with Congresswomen Pressley, Adams, and Omar, who have all been critical voices in this fight, to address this crisis. I cannot overstate the importance of this resolution and the need for the Biden Administration to take bold action and deliver on this mandate from the people on day one.”

“The incoming Biden-Harris Administration has the opportunity to change lives and jumpstart our economy on day one by cancelling $50,000 in student loan debt,” said Congresswoman Adams. “These loans are holding American families back from buying houses, cars, and opening small businesses. Student loan debt prevents young families from building and creating wealth that they can pass down to their children and grandchildren – a freedom that historically has been denied to Black Americans in this country. Starting on January 20, it’s up to us to rebuild the bridge to the middle class for millions of Americans. Let’s start by cancelling the debt.”
 
More from the press release:
  • Recognizes the Secretary of Education’s broad administrative authority to cancel Federal student loan debt.
  • Urges the President to take executive action on day one of his Administration to cancel $50,000 in Federal student loan debt per borrower using the current legal authorities already granted by Congress.
  • Calls on the President to use existing authorities to prevent debt cancellation from resulting in a tax bill for borrowers.
  • Encourages the President to ensure that administrative debt cancellation helps to close racial wealth gaps.
  • Urges the President to extend the current payment relief on all Federal student loan payments and interest for the duration of the COVID-19 pandemic.

S.Res.711 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): A resolution calling on the President of the United States to take executive action to broadly cancel Federal student loan debt. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress - introduced by Sen. Chuck Schumer back in Sept. 22

Its cosponsors:
Sen. Warren, Elizabeth [D-MA]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Brown, Sherrod [D-OH]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Durbin, Richard J. [D-IL]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Sanders, Bernard [I-VT]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Duckworth, Tammy [D-IL]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Blumenthal, Richard [D-CT]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Van Hollen, Chris [D-MD]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Merkley, Jeff [D-OR]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Markey, Edward J. [D-MA]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Booker, Cory A. [D-NJ]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Menendez, Robert [D-NJ]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Wyden, Ron [D-OR]* 09/22/2020
Sen. Schatz, Brian [D-HI] 09/23/2020

H.Res.1269 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Calling on the President of the United States to take Executive action to broadly cancel Federal student loan debt. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress - introduced by Rep. Ayanna Pressley on Dec 17

Its cosponsors:
Rep. Omar, Ilhan [D-MN-5]* 12/17/2020
Rep. Adams, Alma S. [D-NC-12]* 12/17/2020
Rep. Waters, Maxine [D-CA-43]* 12/17/2020
Rep. Dean, Madeleine [D-PA-4]* 12/17/2020
Rep. Lee, Barbara [D-CA-13]* 12/17/2020
Rep. Jayapal, Pramila [D-WA-7]* 12/17/2020
Rep. Hayes, Jahana [D-CT-5]* 12/17/2020

This is very close to Congress's end-of-term reset, however.
 
Vox on Twitter: "Exclusive: House Democrats are rolling out a resolution calling for Joe Biden to forgive up to $50,000 of borrowers’ student debt.

Reps. @AyannaPressley, @IlhanMN, @RepAdams, and @RepMaxineWaters are leading the charge. https://t.co/ENpvC30D6l" / Twitter


Exclusive: House Democrats urge Biden to cancel student debt of $50,000 or less - Vox - "Rep. Ayanna Pressley is leading a push from a group of House Democrats who want Joe Biden to cancel student debt."
A growing chorus of Democrats and activists have an eye on canceling student debt

There is a complicated debate surrounding whether Biden should take unilateral action to cancel student debt (Vox has a full explainer on the arguments surrounding the issue). But one thing is clear: what used to be an idea firmly on the left wing is now very much part of the mainstream political conversation among Democrats.

Biden has backed legislation to cancel $10,000 in federal student loan debt, but he’s coming under increasing pressure to go bigger and forgive up to $50,000. (To be sure, there are many activists who believe he should cancel all student debt altogether.) The House resolution focuses on the $50,000 front and lays out the case on how Biden can do it.
 
Why have colleges become so expensive? Shouldn't that issue be addressed first?

No. That will do nothing to help those who are currently being crushed by tall mountains of student debt.


Yes, the reasons universities are so expensive absolutely MUST be addressed but not ahead of relieving student debt burden. Contemporaneously? Sure. By remedying some of the structural flaws in our system and by re-establishing the fact that education is worth having, worth sacrificing for its own sake as well as a means to be better able to earn a living and to contribute more to society.

I know too many parents of high school aged students who truly don’t see that they should be saving for their kids education rather than purchasing them cars and fancy clothes and doodads and that having things is less important than having ideas. That fancy houses and two dozen pairs of shoes don’t make you a better person or better employee or better business person or citizen.

If the past five years have taught us nothing else, they should have taught us that having a well educated populace is imperative for the maintenance and functioning of a free and democratic society.
 
I have no knowledge of how the student loan industry actually works so I'm guilty of blowing hot air here. Degrees that aren't worth it are degrees in markets where the jobs are in low demand. It makes no sense for something in low demand to cost more than something that is in high demand. High demand jobs means business' would offer high pay to compete for talent and students who take out loans for those jobs have a higher chance of finding one in their field and thus being able to pay the student loan. It's not kicking the can, it's knowing your market. But who cares about knowing the market when you don't have to? If you don't have to worry about where the payments for the loans will come from then you don't price based on the market you price based on the courts or insurance (or whatever backs it). I'm of the mind that as a business if your product sucks it makes sense to lose money. In the case of student loans, the schools set the price and the lender seeks a profit on top of that price. It's on the school for charging too much for the degrees, the lender for basing their loans on school prices that don't match market trends and the borrower for accepting that overpriced rubbish. All of this should play out in the markets and not in the courts where consumers are forced to pay for a useless product.

You're trying to balance the wrong thing. We shouldn't be trying to make law training cheaper because there's less need for it, that's just making more problems down the road.
Law training???? Less need for it???

Exactly which century are you living in? The 18th or the 19th???
 
This now seems so long ago, but it was in a tab, and I'm catching up.
AOC plans to push Joe Biden 'hard' to cancel student loans
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said Sunday she will push President-elect Joe Biden “hard” to cancel student loans after he has balked at doing so.

Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) told the Facebook-sponsored startup news service Punchbowl that “we have to push the Biden administration hard. This whole thing ‘We can’t cancel student loan debt’ is not gonna fly.”
 
The real issue with Student Loans is that the price of the education doesn't seem to match current market trends for the jobs. For example if the lawyer market is saturated the price for law school should reflect that saturation by being cheaper. High demand jobs should cost more since you're nearly guaranteed to profit from that education meaning the lender is more likely to get their money back. In my opinion, if you're a dumb ass lender that's your fault and the courts shouldn't back your dumbass decision to lend the money.

No, that's just a case of kicking the can--you'll get students with degrees that aren't worth it, a lifetime problem for them. The cost to the student should go up in the saturated fields--reduce the number of students that take that route.

I have no knowledge of how the student loan industry actually works so I'm guilty of blowing hot air here. Degrees that aren't worth it are degrees in markets where the jobs are in low demand. It makes no sense for something in low demand to cost more than something that is in high demand. High demand jobs means business' would offer high pay to compete for talent and students who take out loans for those jobs have a higher chance of finding one in their field and thus being able to pay the student loan. It's not kicking the can, it's knowing your market. But who cares about knowing the market when you don't have to? If you don't have to worry about where the payments for the loans will come from then you don't price based on the market you price based on the courts or insurance (or whatever backs it). I'm of the mind that as a business if your product sucks it makes sense to lose money. In the case of student loans, the schools set the price and the lender seeks a profit on top of that price. It's on the school for charging too much for the degrees, the lender for basing their loans on school prices that don't match market trends and the borrower for accepting that overpriced rubbish. All of this should play out in the markets and not in the courts where consumers are forced to pay for a useless product.
A simplistic reduction of how college budgets work, and there's some stereotypical confusion about the "product" and the "customer" of a university system. Are less popular degrees the same thing as less useful degrees? Is the worth of a degree about the number of jobs you can get with that degree, or how much money you make if you do get one of the jobs? Is "demand" the demand by students for certain majors and classes, the demands their parents make of them, the demands industry makes of the colleges, or the demands civil society needs and requires from the system? How do we balance private against public against semi-private education? How do we balance the different needs of different types of colleges serving different populations? Is a college solvent because it offers lucrative degreees that primarily benefit students, or is it solvent because it offers popular programs that drive up enrollment and therefore state apportionment, even if the classes themselves aren't vocationally related? Should we avoid complex degrees such as those in STEM fields because they are unpopular and expensive to offer compared to a relatively "cheap" liberal arts degree (which has no labs, field trips, small class sizes, etc)? What about CTE courses such as technical skills (welding, construction, electronics) that are similarly expensive to offer, but get jobs for students alost right out of the gate, even if it costs the college money to have that program? My college offers two programs - administration of justice and fire control - that are enormously expensive, absolutely don't make back their budget, and due to their demanding and competitive nature end up washing out most of their students before they get a degree, but have incomparable worth to society. We need police, firefighters, park rangers, and so forth, so doesn't it make sense to subsidize them even if they make little money for the school or for the students? Yet this will drive up loan debt, since those programs also result in more students with loans they can't immediately pay back, and are also especially attractive to lower class students who are more likely to take out loans in the first place. Should they be expensive programs, since employability of graduates is high, or cheap, because graduation is unlikely? Cheap, becuase the jobs you get with them aren't lucrative, or expnsive, because employment is almost certain?

Looked at one way, my most popular classes, which are various sections of a well-liked elective on world religions, are also the most injurious to students; taking my course will cost them (possibly loaned) money and not directly contribute to any later job. But on the other hand, viewed from a college budget perspective, it's very inexpensive for me to teach a popular class which always fills and requires no special space or materials from the college, compared to a shop class with eight students that needs much special equipment, produces toxic waste that must be carefully disposed of, and is never taught at full capacity for lack of student interest. You could argue that the shop class is needed more than my class, both by society (which needs skilled workers) and by the students (who need jobs). But my class helps pay for that class, because unlike a shop teacher, I make thousands of dollars for the school in apportionment with every class I teach, more than repaying them for my salary. Indeed my entire department has some of the fewest majors, but one of the highest work efficiencies. Without the liberal arts offerings to balance out expensive CTE courses, not just the tuition but particular course fees for those CTE courses would go up... making them even less popular and thus more expensive and financially inefficient than they already are. Meanwhile your model would make a degree in my field extremely cheap, since there isn't a lot of direct demand for our graduates, even though from a budgetary perspective, making your most financially productive programs/departments cheaper to the students makes no sense at all, as our whole raison d'etre disappears if the college isn't making money off of us, and we're most lucrative of all when we aren't teaching our majors, but merely offering classes to students in other majors. Meanwhile, the Department of Education has its own role to play: for instance, currently we have a $10,000 grant that is contingent on getting butts in seats for those CTE courses, which the Trump administration has favored. Accepting that grant money, but jacking up the cost of tuition for those very employable degrees, could result in criticism if not actually legal penalties, since the whole point of the inititative was to make those necessary degrees cheaper for the college to offer and for students to afford, and to promote the number of graduates in those programs generally, a number that more expensive tuition would tend to reduce.

There is no golden bullet when it comes to higher education. Indeed, ultimately, schools don't "set tuition" as such. They have an influence on it, but how schools get funded is much more complicated than just tuition payment --> classes --> degree, especially when you start factoring in the role of government grants & programs, and private loans.
 
That makes it a year of full-time work to pay for a year of college.
At minimum wage though. Also, this is not an "all or nothing" proposition. A student can work part time and still use things like scholarships, grants (like Pell) and, yes, loans.

Student loans are not evil, but choosing a reasonably priced university and maybe working part time to cover some of the costs means a smaller loan burden.
Accumulating for example a six figure loan for a BA and MA in art history or something is stupid and should not result in a bailout by the taxpayers.

Some loan forgiveness is probably a good idea, 10k as Biden suggested or 20k as some sort of compromise. But 50k? Too much.
 
Law training???? Less need for it???

Exactly which century are you living in? The 18th or the 19th???

As overlawyered as US is, the job market for lawyers can't absorb all the law school graduates.
 
A simplistic reduction of how college budgets work, and there's some stereotypical confusion about the "product" and the "customer" of a university system. Are less popular degrees the same thing as less useful degrees? Is the worth of a degree about the number of jobs you can get with that degree, or how much money you make if you do get one of the jobs? Is "demand" the demand by students for certain majors and classes, the demands their parents make of them, the demands industry makes of the colleges, or the demands civil society needs and requires from the system?

From the standpoint of society we should value degrees based on the ratio of those that have them and the market demand for said degrees. Adjust the cost to the students to favor those fields were demand exceeds supply and disfavor those fields where supply exceeds demand.
 
I have no knowledge of how the student loan industry actually works so I'm guilty of blowing hot air here. Degrees that aren't worth it are degrees in markets where the jobs are in low demand. It makes no sense for something in low demand to cost more than something that is in high demand. High demand jobs means business' would offer high pay to compete for talent and students who take out loans for those jobs have a higher chance of finding one in their field and thus being able to pay the student loan. It's not kicking the can, it's knowing your market. But who cares about knowing the market when you don't have to? If you don't have to worry about where the payments for the loans will come from then you don't price based on the market you price based on the courts or insurance (or whatever backs it). I'm of the mind that as a business if your product sucks it makes sense to lose money. In the case of student loans, the schools set the price and the lender seeks a profit on top of that price. It's on the school for charging too much for the degrees, the lender for basing their loans on school prices that don't match market trends and the borrower for accepting that overpriced rubbish. All of this should play out in the markets and not in the courts where consumers are forced to pay for a useless product.

You're trying to balance the wrong thing. We shouldn't be trying to make law training cheaper because there's less need for it, that's just making more problems down the road.
Law training???? Less need for it???

Exactly which century are you living in? The 18th or the 19th???

You don't realize that we have a glut of lawyers? Many fare pretty poorly because there simply isn't the demand.
 
Law training???? Less need for it???

Exactly which century are you living in? The 18th or the 19th???

As overlawyered as US is, the job market for lawyers can't absorb all the law school graduates.
Got any data on that? Law school graduates work in all sort of positions that do not require one to practice law.
 
A simplistic reduction of how college budgets work, and there's some stereotypical confusion about the "product" and the "customer" of a university system. Are less popular degrees the same thing as less useful degrees? Is the worth of a degree about the number of jobs you can get with that degree, or how much money you make if you do get one of the jobs? Is "demand" the demand by students for certain majors and classes, the demands their parents make of them, the demands industry makes of the colleges, or the demands civil society needs and requires from the system?

From the standpoint of society we should value degrees based on the ratio of those that have them and the market demand for said degrees.
Why?
 
A simplistic reduction of how college budgets work, and there's some stereotypical confusion about the "product" and the "customer" of a university system. Are less popular degrees the same thing as less useful degrees? Is the worth of a degree about the number of jobs you can get with that degree, or how much money you make if you do get one of the jobs? Is "demand" the demand by students for certain majors and classes, the demands their parents make of them, the demands industry makes of the colleges, or the demands civil society needs and requires from the system?

From the standpoint of society we should value degrees based on the ratio of those that have them and the market demand for said degrees.
Why?

Personally, I think we should value education, and help everyone attain as much education as they can. That nobody should be held objecticely higher or lower based on where they end up in that regard, but that we should always celebrate attaining more. Instead, we should value people on the basis of what they accomplish and whether they seek to continue accomplishing it.
 
Law training???? Less need for it???

Exactly which century are you living in? The 18th or the 19th???

As overlawyered as US is, the job market for lawyers can't absorb all the law school graduates.
Got any data on that? Law school graduates work in all sort of positions that do not require one to practice law.

Foot, meet bullet.

When lots of graduates with a degree are working in fields where the degree isn't useful is a pretty darn strong indication of a glut.
 
A simplistic reduction of how college budgets work, and there's some stereotypical confusion about the "product" and the "customer" of a university system. Are less popular degrees the same thing as less useful degrees? Is the worth of a degree about the number of jobs you can get with that degree, or how much money you make if you do get one of the jobs? Is "demand" the demand by students for certain majors and classes, the demands their parents make of them, the demands industry makes of the colleges, or the demands civil society needs and requires from the system?

From the standpoint of society we should value degrees based on the ratio of those that have them and the market demand for said degrees.
Why?

Government should be aiding what helps society--and that's people in positions for which there is enough demand.

If you want to learn underwater basketweaving, fine, but you shouldn't expect any state help in doing so.
 
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