Learner
Veteran Member
Satan was alright untill mere mortal man came into the picture, taking the focus away from him, so to speak. Satan's free will choice to either LOVE & ACCEPT mankind like the Angel Michael does ... or do the opposite.
That's not quite correct. It WAS a better model at the very start - 'before the fall of Adam, bringing death into the world etc'. So therefore GOD 'DID' go with the better model for Earth (although now no longer perfect). It does say so in Genesis plain and clear.
Blood sacrifice:
Covenant (when sealed and not broken) like that with Noah, should give some indication when reading - showing the necessity of animal blood scarifices.
In layman's speak and POV: If No blood sacrifice (in place of you) is offered, then it's YOUR blood that pays for your sins. God was being quite generous giving a little more lee-way (for lack of better word) without breaking or retracting His word on the covenants IOWs.
Satan was alright untill mere mortal man came into the picture, taking the focus away from him, so to speak. Satan's free will choice to either LOVE & ACCEPT mankind like the Angel Michael does ... or do the opposite.
I'll use Lion's post #56 as my response to post #54
Not only why couldn't he go with a better model for earth -- why did there have to be a blood sacrifice for him to forgive sinners? Why couldn't he just forgive, without conditions, like humans are instructed to do?
(Not that a godhead loses anything by "sacrificing" an eternal part of that godhead, but, if you start debating that part of it, you just never get outta the rabbit hole.)
That's not quite correct. It WAS a better model at the very start - 'before the fall of Adam, bringing death into the world etc'. So therefore GOD 'DID' go with the better model for Earth (although now no longer perfect). It does say so in Genesis plain and clear.
Blood sacrifice:
Covenant (when sealed and not broken) like that with Noah, should give some indication when reading - showing the necessity of animal blood scarifices.
In layman's speak and POV: If No blood sacrifice (in place of you) is offered, then it's YOUR blood that pays for your sins.
God was being quite generous giving a little more lee-way (for lack of better word) without breaking or retracting His word on the covenants IOWs.
@Learner Did you tell folks here at TFF that God wants to "torture" people? Did you say this was a covenant promise? Did you say you say you hope God keeps such a promise? That "we" don't want Him "going back" on His Word?
Blood sacrifice:
Covenant (when sealed and not broken) like that with Noah, should give some indication when reading - showing the necessity of animal blood scarifices.
In layman's speak and POV: If No blood sacrifice (in place of you) is offered, then it's YOUR blood that pays for your sins. God was being quite generous giving a little more lee-way (for lack of better word) without breaking or retracting His word on the covenants IOWs.
Atonement is about mercy, love, grace, forgiveness- not punishment.
Jesus defeats satan by His act of loving self-sacrifice which shows us that death is not the end, and that sin is NOT an incurable terminal illness - not even original sin.
I don't know where atheist proselytisers get the idea
that the doctrine of atonement entails God somehow wanting to torture or punish us.
You'll feel HELL. . . It'll be beyond anything humanly imaginable! The Bible describes it as ),weeping (Matt 8:12), wailing (Matt 13:42), gnashing of teeth (Matt 13:50), darkness (Matt 25:30), flames (Luke 16:24), burning (Isa 33:14), torments (Luke 16:23) everlasting punishment!
In Mark 9:46, Jesus Christ says about hell: "Where THEIR WORM dies not, and the fire is not quenched." Jesus said explicitly — THEIR worm — not a worm, or the worm — but THEIR worm. And Jesus Christ said, "Where THEIR WORM dies not, and the fire is not quenched."
Key Facts About Eternity
(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).
(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).
(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).
Key Passages About Hell
(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).
(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).
(3) Hell is conscious torment.
Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
I don't dialogue with people who accuse me of promoting rape.
I also don't dialogue with people who falsely attribute remarks to me by
I don't dialogue with people whoaccuse me of promoting rapeask me uncomfortable questions. Fortunately, I can always pretend that I am refusing to answer because of some perceived slight, so I don't have to admit my disingenuousness, even to myself.
Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
I also don't dialogue with people who falsely attribute remarks to me by
Satan was alright untill mere mortal man came into the picture, taking the focus away from him, so to speak. Satan's free will choice to either LOVE & ACCEPT mankind like the Angel Michael does ... or do the opposite.
There are reasons why a decision is made. If both Angel Michael and Satan have free will, Angel Michael decides not to rebel when Satan chooses to rebel ....the driver of the decision each of them makes is not 'free will.'
Besides that, in Judaism there is no rebellion, Satan is always under the control of God,, doing the will of God, carrying out instructions from God, aka, the book of Job. The rebellion of Satan is a late development.
Your free will defense is a smoke screen.
Best to unfix it to how it was:
Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
I also don't dialogue with people who falsely attribute remarks to me by
Reasons why descisions are made ... well yes, several reasons is a point. Angel Michael deciding not to rebel all because satan does rebels, is a new one to me. Most definately not my understanding.
Judaism consisting of various sects didn't/doesn't accept Jesus (and the NT). However, you must think it odd that Jews were the first Christians who followed Jesus; which you could say was another sect. The OT prophesies and expected Jesus the Christ to come, who would also prophesy (as prophets do) about satan falling later i.e. from Job's time and time after job in the OT, satan had not yet fallen (expelled after the battle) i.e. he was able to visit both the Heaven and earth like in Job; no doubt having the ability to wander and entice followers (similarly as he tried with Jesus) all over the earth, resulting with some alternative beliefs or culture to that of God.
Through a long line of Prophets, they each individually,and usually tell only parts of what's to come.
This question has always seemed like a massive plot-hole to me. I find it interesting to discuss because it is such a massive plot-hole.
Did Jehovah not know what was in the heart of this creature? Does the story support that gap? Does god need this plot device so he adds it but refuses to take responsibility? Is Satan actually an equal god, but the book downplays his origin because that scares the shit out of them?
What’s the deal? Who created Satan, Why, and what did they know and when did they know it?