Learner
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Satan was alright untill mere mortal man came into the picture, taking the focus away from him, so to speak. Satan's free will choice to either LOVE & ACCEPT mankind like the Angel Michael does ... or do the opposite.
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Why did Jehovah create Satan?
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blastula
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Even as you describe it, blood sacrifice was up to God.
DBT
Contributor
There are reasons why a decision is made. If both Angel Michael and Satan have free will, Angel Michael decides not to rebel when Satan chooses to rebel ....the driver of the decision each of them makes is not 'free will.'
Besides that, in Judaism there is no rebellion, Satan is always under the control of God,, doing the will of God, carrying out instructions from God, aka, the book of Job. The rebellion of Satan is a late development.
Your free will defense is a smoke screen.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
Satan made up all this stuff about blood atonement. It's all Satan!!! He mightily fucked with your Christian minds.
I'll use Lion's post #56 as my response to post #54
Are you saying that God did not create Satan, humans did?
Learner your answer does not make any sense.
But according to the story, God KNEW what would happen before he made it.
In a court of law, and the court of public opinion, and any type of logic; if Boeing KNEW their planes would fly into the ground and they made them anyway... they are at fault for any plane that flies into the ground.
According to your story, the god KNOWS EVERYTHING and is capable of creating whatever he wants, exactly as he wants it.
Your excuse for his flawed creation does not make sense. You give him excuses that contradict the powers you have given him.
WTF? Who made this “covenant”?
Who first came up with the idea of blood sacrifice?
Who insisted that it be included?
Did YOU personally sign this covenant? I know I didn’t.
Why.
Who made this rule.
What kind of sick monster made this rule?
And corollary: do you really approve of other people getting tortured on your behalf? You’re okay with that story?
You religionists repeat this bloody sick crap as if you think it’s like gravity or relativity. Like it’s some first principal that cannot be undone.
WHILE you talk about a universe designed by and made by a benevolent.
That makes no sense.
So who made this blood sacrifice rule? And why did you accept it? Please show your work.
WTF?? You believe this contradictory stuff? You promote it?
He promises he’ll beat the SHIT out of you if you don’t do what he says, and you think he’s “generous” because he keeps his promise?
What is WONG with you?
Here’s the thing - he never had to threaten that blood sacrifice was necessary. A benevolent being would never have put that on the table. Your story includes some kind of psycho features that you not only excuse but embrace. This is blood sacrifice an you just accept that it belongs in your story and that your religion cannot exist without it.
WTF?
What, exactly, is wrong with someone going “back on their word” to torture?
Your post:
1. God promised he would torture.
2. We don’t want him going back on his word, do we? He promised he would torture!
But according to the story, God KNEW what would happen before he made it.
In a court of law, and the court of public opinion, and any type of logic; if Boeing KNEW their planes would fly into the ground and they made them anyway... they are at fault for any plane that flies into the ground.
According to your story, the god KNOWS EVERYTHING and is capable of creating whatever he wants, exactly as he wants it.
Your excuse for his flawed creation does not make sense. You give him excuses that contradict the powers you have given him.
WTF? Who made this “covenant”?
Who first came up with the idea of blood sacrifice?
Who insisted that it be included?
Did YOU personally sign this covenant? I know I didn’t.
Why.
Who made this rule.
What kind of sick monster made this rule?
And corollary: do you really approve of other people getting tortured on your behalf? You’re okay with that story?
You religionists repeat this bloody sick crap as if you think it’s like gravity or relativity. Like it’s some first principal that cannot be undone.
WHILE you talk about a universe designed by and made by a benevolent.
That makes no sense.
So who made this blood sacrifice rule? And why did you accept it? Please show your work.
WTF?? You believe this contradictory stuff? You promote it?
He promises he’ll beat the SHIT out of you if you don’t do what he says, and you think he’s “generous” because he keeps his promise?
What is WONG with you?
Here’s the thing - he never had to threaten that blood sacrifice was necessary. A benevolent being would never have put that on the table. Your story includes some kind of psycho features that you not only excuse but embrace. This is blood sacrifice an you just accept that it belongs in your story and that your religion cannot exist without it.
WTF?
What, exactly, is wrong with someone going “back on their word” to torture?
Your post:
1. God promised he would torture.
2. We don’t want him going back on his word, do we? He promised he would torture!
Learner
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Rhea loves making
(bit busy this moment but cheers for the responses)
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@Learner Did you tell folks here at TFF that God wants to "torture" people? Did you say this was a covenant promise? Did you say you say you hope God keeps such a promise? ...that "we" don't want Him "going back" on His Word?
Did you say "God is generous" in promising to "beat the SHIT out of" people?
WTF is wrong with you Learner? Why would you say such things?
Atonement is about mercy, love, grace, forgiveness- not punishment.
Jesus defeats satan by His act of loving self-sacrifice which shows us that death is not the end, and that sin is NOT an incurable terminal illness - not even original sin.
I don't know where atheist proselytisers get the idea that the doctrine of atonement entails God somehow wanting to torture or punish us.
Did you say "God is generous" in promising to "beat the SHIT out of" people?
WTF is wrong with you Learner? Why would you say such things?
Atonement is about mercy, love, grace, forgiveness- not punishment.
Jesus defeats satan by His act of loving self-sacrifice which shows us that death is not the end, and that sin is NOT an incurable terminal illness - not even original sin.
I don't know where atheist proselytisers get the idea that the doctrine of atonement entails God somehow wanting to torture or punish us.
I don't know where you get the idea that discussing the flaws in literature are proselytizing.
Or... wait... when you hear my questions about the plot holes in your religion, does it make you think about deconverting?
Who knew!
Indeed. Many Christians point to passages in their book to support this. Perhaps you have used Sharpie Surgery to remove these phrases from your copy?
I have no idea what your URL to screwtapes and slubgubs is supposed to imply.
https://www.litcharts.com/lit/the-screwtape-letters/letter-xix
If you have something to say, then say it.
I think I hear you saying that you don't want to address my question because of something I wrote, BUT you want to communicate with me by talking about my posts to other people in front of me?
mmmm.. Gotcha. That is... very... dodgy of you.
Lion IRC
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I also don't dialogue with people who falsely attribute remarks to me by putting "quotation marks" around words I never used.
DBT
Contributor
It still remains that Satan as the Devil who rebelled against God and is in opposition to Him is a relatively late development, Christian theology. .
It turns out that it’s trivially simple to say, “I realize you are trying to paraphrase or make a hypothetical, but using quotes might make people think I actually said that, and I didn’t. It’s just that I believe in a bible that does say that.” Or some such. Of course the reactions to the post show that everyone knows I was making a hypothetical and not exactly quoting you - because then we’d use the quote function that makes direct quotes very clear - like the one above. It’s a wonderful feature - so unambiguous.
At any rate, Why did Jehovah create Satan, knowing what Satan would become?
bilby
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FTFY
Learner
Veteran Member
Best to unfix it to how it was:
Learner
Veteran Member
Reasons why descisions are made ... well yes, several reasons is a point. Angel Michael deciding not to rebel all because satan does rebels, is a new one to me. Most definately not my understanding.
Judaism consisting of various sects didn't/doesn't accept Jesus (and the NT). However, you must think it odd that Jews were the first Christians who followed Jesus; which you could say was another sect. The OT prophesies and expected Jesus the Christ to come, who would also prophesy (as prophets do) about satan falling later i.e. from Job's time and time after job in the OT, satan had not yet fallen (expelled after the battle) i.e. he was able to visit both the Heaven and earth like in Job; no doubt having the ability to wander and entice followers (similarly as he tried with Jesus) all over the earth, resulting with some alternative beliefs or culture to that of God.
Through a long line of Prophets, they each individually,and usually tell only parts of what's to come.
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WAB
Veteran Member
DBT
Contributor
I don't know how that relates to what I said. I pointed out that if both Angel Michael and Satan have free will but Angel Michael and Satan make entirely different decisions, it is not free will that determines their behaviour, that other factors come into play, character, personality, disposition, etc....
Our thought processes are not a matter of free will. It is not free will that runs our brain.
What some Jews happen to believe about Jesus has no bearing on the fact that orthodox Judaism does not accept Christian theology. The reasons why Jesus does not meet the description of their prophesied Messiah are given.
Aesthete
New member
That it is seen as a "plot hole" is largely due to ignorance and/or rejection of Bible teaching concerning the origin of evil.
God created all things for His own purpose and pleasure. God created men as sinners that He might show His love and kindness on some, and adopt us as His very own, as show His wrath and justice on others.
Col 1:16:
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Isaiah 45:7:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
Romans 9:21-23:
"21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"
He created evil, because it is His eternal purpose to save His people from it. He did this:
"4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:4-6)
His did this according to the good pleasure of will, and to the praise of the glory of His grace. His did this so that we, His adopted children, would be without blame before Him in love. He did it so that we will worship, praise, and glorify Him forever. He created Satan so that He might save us from him, just as He raised up Pharaoh that He might destroy him in the Red Sea as His people escaped.
Psalm 92:6-7:
6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.
7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: