Male patients asked if they are pregnant at NHS Trust

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you believe that sex is always apparent? Especially in a situation when the patient may be seriously injured or in pain or very ill?

I’m certain that in well over 95% of the cases, the assumption a medical professional would make would be correct.

But the consequences fir being wrong could involve grave harm.

It’s also surprising that all patients are not shielded in the abdominal/genital region. I’m shielded during routine dental X-rays.

This. It's about the edge cases, not about the typical cases. The set up the rules to keep things from slipping through the cracks. In a situation like this a rule that's 99% effective is a bad thing. It's the same problem we see with the "self-driving" Teslas--it's good enough to handle most things but will fail in some edge cases. People rely on it and die when they hit one of those edge cases.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

it could again be bewildering, confusing, and distasteful for a 6 year old girl to be asked, or her parents to be asked, if she is pregnant).

As someone who has been a 6 year old girl, and who has taken a six year old girl to x-rays, it is totally not.

Where did you get your information?

I was never a six year old girl, that's true, and if you personally did not mind that a tech asked if the six year old was pregnant, more power to you.

I would find it weird and offputting myself. I will ask the parents of some young girls this weekend to see what they say, so I can gain a wider perspective.

There was a case of a six year old mother. And Wikipedia lists two more than gave birth at age six.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m routinely asked for proof that I am over 18 or 21 (depending) and I’m in my 60’s. When I was still coloring my hair, I could pass for a decade younger but not any more.

I’m still shielded when I have dental X-rays and not only have I been going to the same dental practice for 30 years, but my hygienist went to school with my kid. I’m really certain they know I’m not having more kids, even if we had t had conversations about tubal ligations..

Everyone should be shielded for x-rays. No need to catch any more rads than you have to. The risk isn't merely reproductive.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They do not write their protocols to say, 'Ask every time until you're sure.' Or, '...unless you think you know better.' Or, '...unless you feel you're smarter than the protocol.'

Of course they're smarter than the protocol. It's ink on paper, no imagination, no discernment, no cognitive powers.

They also have no flexibility.

Ask all the questions every time.

This. I have an extremely unusual name--probably under one in a million in the US. Is it adequate to ensure it's me? Of course not--I'm married. We've had blood draws on the same day. We typically go to the dentist with back-to-back appointments. We have gotten back-to-back vaccine shots. Lots of opportunities for name confusion.

 

[Emily Lake]

Males and men aren't the same thing.

I totally understand that for most of human history they were. And now, they nearly always are.

But males and men aren't the same thing, in the here and now.
Tom

What is the term for an adult male of the bovine species?
What is the term for an adult male of the equine species?
What is the term for an adult male of the human species?

 

[Toni]

Males and men aren't the same thing.

I totally understand that for most of human history they were. And now, they nearly always are.

But males and men aren't the same thing, in the here and now.
Tom

What is the term for an adult male of the bovine species?
What is the term for an adult male of the equine species?
What is the term for an adult male of the human species?

What is your point in this thread, discussing humans?

FWIW, with regards to the the first two, are you talking castrated males or unaltered males?

 

[Keith&Co.]

They do not write their protocols to say, 'Ask every time until you're sure.' Or, '...unless you think you know better.' Or, '...unless you feel you're smarter than the protocol.'

Of course they're smarter than the protocol. It's ink on paper, no imagination, no discernment, no cognitive powers.

They also have no flexibility.

Ask all the questions every time.

This. I have an extremely unusual name--probably under one in a million in the US. Is it adequate to ensure it's me? Of course not--I'm married. We've had blood draws on the same day. We typically go to the dentist with back-to-back appointments. We have gotten back-to-back vaccine shots. Lots of opportunities for name confusion.

Mine is rare, too. At my third school, i only used my last name on a form, telling the chief there was no chance anyone else with that name was within MILES of my command.
4. I had a distant (by blood) cousin stationed a mere four miles up the road at Oceana. Learned my lesson.

 

[Emily Lake]

Do you believe that sex is always apparent? Especially in a situation when the patient may be seriously injured or in pain or very ill?

I’m certain that in well over 95% of the cases, the assumption a medical professional would make would be correct.

But the consequences fir being wrong could involve grave harm.

It’s also surprising that all patients are not shielded in the abdominal/genital region. I’m shielded during routine dental X-rays.

It is apparent for a fully clothed person 95% of the time. It is apparent with a quick blood test 100% of the time, if a patient is too incapacitated to answer the question.

 

[Emily Lake]

What harm is done by asking every patient if they might be pregnant?

It harms our ability as a species to think rationally and critically by intentionally obfuscating reality in order to pander to fantasy.

 

[Toni]

Do you believe that sex is always apparent? Especially in a situation when the patient may be seriously injured or in pain or very ill?

I’m certain that in well over 95% of the cases, the assumption a medical professional would make would be correct.

But the consequences fir being wrong could involve grave harm.

It’s also surprising that all patients are not shielded in the abdominal/genital region. I’m shielded during routine dental X-rays.

It is apparent for a fully clothed person 95% of the time. It is apparent with a quick blood test 100% of the time, if a patient is too incapacitated to answer the question.

How often do you think that in radiology, they will draw blood on an unconscious patient in order to determine male/female?

BTW, male/female is NOT always accurate by blood test. It's not on/off, black/white 100% of the time. I know it's a really long pair of posts but upthread, I posted some variations on so called biological sex.

 

[Emily Lake]

He was famous for being 'the pregnant man.' Here's where Thomas Beatie is now

His pregnancy was a media sensation in 2008. Today, Beatie lives a relatively quiet life with his wife and children, working as a stockbroker in Phoenix.

www.nbcnews.com

Beatie is female.

 

[Emily Lake]

Males and men aren't the same thing.

I totally understand that for most of human history they were. And now, they nearly always are.

But males and men aren't the same thing, in the here and now.
Tom

You have hit the nail on the head.
This whole argument has erupted because some people do not want males = men, women = females.
The question is why do they wish to change something that has been around since the dawn of humanity?

And the subsequent question of why those few are entitled to force that change on everyone else, when doing so creates confusion and obfuscates the nature of reality?

 

[Toni]

Males and men aren't the same thing.

I totally understand that for most of human history they were. And now, they nearly always are.

But males and men aren't the same thing, in the here and now.
Tom

You have hit the nail on the head.
This whole argument has erupted because some people do not want males = men, women = females.
The question is why do they wish to change something that has been around since the dawn of humanity?

And the subsequent question of why those few are entitled to force that change on everyone else, when doing so creates confusion and obfuscates the nature of reality?

Why must those who do not fit into neat little categories be compelled to be ignored and rendered invisible in order to make the rest of us feel more comfortable when their health and life are at stake?

 

[Toni]

What dodge?

Do you imagine every nurse can immediately discern which patients might possibly be pregnant, with 100% accuracy? Particularly while the patient is clothed and awaiting exam/treatment—which, typically is when questions are asked. Do you believe that every patient knows what information is abs is not pertinent? Or that they answer accurately?

You know nothing.

When i have been hospitalized, every time nurses administer drug treatments, they scan and verify my wrist band, bed number, verify the drug, the prescription, the dosage, and verbally ask me to confirm my name and birthday. Every time.

Other patients get testy to have to repeat (what corresponds to) Keith A. Company, 9-26-62.

I was asked several times my name, year of birth, and address when I received my vaccine shots. I was asked at the entrance, at the sorting line, and just before I got the jab.

I am not against standard procedure. I am against changing standard procedure for no good reason.

Protecting the health and well being of those who are not gender conforming is 'no good reason?'

 

[Emily Lake]

Same reason we're getting rid of smallpox, absolute monarchy, and illiteracy. Some things have been around since the dawn of humanity that we could well do without.

Personally, I find trans kinda icky. I cannot imagine wanting to be anything other than the sex I was born.

But I prefer living in a world where my preference isn't enforced, nor anyone else's. That's what has changed, and I find it a big moral improvement.
Tom

I don't find it icky at all... but I also don't find it a big moral improvement.

I would consider it a moral improvement if the colloquial definition of "man" was extended to *include* males who lie to wear dresses and nail polish, rather than excluding them as not meeting the requirement of manhood.

The problem here is that by extending the meaning of the word "woman" to include bepenised testiculators... you ARE forcing a preference on other people. You're forcing the preference of a small number of male people onto a large number of female people. You're forcing a large number of female people to have their boundaries overridden, and granting an entitlement to a small number of males, giving them the "right" to view naked females against our consent, and to expose their penises to females without our consent.

Seriously, if the ONLY thing being asked for was pronoun usage and the abstract notion of "woman" out on public streets to include people who had medically transitioned in some meaningful way, I wouldn't object at all. I give absolutely zero shits how a person dresses, or whether they wear nail polish and heels or have a buzzcut and steel-toed boots.

The problem is that the term "woman" has historically meant females of the human species... and now it is being retroactively redefined so that "women's locker" and "women's prison" and "women's sports" get forced to include males, even though every single one of us knows that was never the intention.

Redefining a term then using that forced redefinition to attempt to make other people ignore material reality is a problem. Especially when that redefinition is being based on a person's unverifiable internal feelings with no objective means of verification. Self-declared gender identity supplanting sex in law and policy is a really, really, bad idea.

 

[Toni]

He was famous for being 'the pregnant man.' Here's where Thomas Beatie is now

His pregnancy was a media sensation in 2008. Today, Beatie lives a relatively quiet life with his wife and children, working as a stockbroker in Phoenix.

www.nbcnews.com

Beatie is female.

Beatie is nonetheless a man.

He was famous for being 'the pregnant man.' Here's where Thomas Beatie is now

His pregnancy was a media sensation in 2008. Today, Beatie lives a relatively quiet life with his wife and children, working as a stockbroker in Phoenix.

www.today.com

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Same reason we're getting rid of smallpox, absolute monarchy, and illiteracy. Some things have been around since the dawn of humanity that we could well do without.

Personally, I find trans kinda icky. I cannot imagine wanting to be anything other than the sex I was born.

But I prefer living in a world where my preference isn't enforced, nor anyone else's. That's what has changed, and I find it a big moral improvement.
Tom

I don't find it icky at all... but I also don't find it a big moral improvement.

I would consider it a moral improvement if the colloquial definition of "man" was extended to *include* males who lie to wear dresses and nail polish, rather than excluding them as not meeting the requirement of manhood.

The problem here is that by extending the meaning of the word "woman" to include bepenised testiculators... you ARE forcing a preference on other people. You're forcing the preference of a small number of male people onto a large number of female people. You're forcing a large number of female people to have their boundaries overridden, and granting an entitlement to a small number of males, giving them the "right" to view naked females against our consent, and to expose their penises to females without our consent.

Man, every thread "expose their penises" is brought up by you. Makes it sound like you are saying transgender are perverts when you use the word "expose". Conservatives seem to have this issue with not understanding an individual's rights aren't an affront to their individual rights.

Emily Lake wants a world where people have to abide by what she wants, regardless how prude it might be.

 

[Toni]

Same reason we're getting rid of smallpox, absolute monarchy, and illiteracy. Some things have been around since the dawn of humanity that we could well do without.

Personally, I find trans kinda icky. I cannot imagine wanting to be anything other than the sex I was born.

But I prefer living in a world where my preference isn't enforced, nor anyone else's. That's what has changed, and I find it a big moral improvement.
Tom

I don't find it icky at all... but I also don't find it a big moral improvement.

I would consider it a moral improvement if the colloquial definition of "man" was extended to *include* males who lie to wear dresses and nail polish, rather than excluding them as not meeting the requirement of manhood.

The problem here is that by extending the meaning of the word "woman" to include bepenised testiculators... you ARE forcing a preference on other people. You're forcing the preference of a small number of male people onto a large number of female people. You're forcing a large number of female people to have their boundaries overridden, and granting an entitlement to a small number of males, giving them the "right" to view naked females against our consent, and to expose their penises to females without our consent.

Seriously, if the ONLY thing being asked for was pronoun usage and the abstract notion of "woman" out on public streets to include people who had medically transitioned in some meaningful way, I wouldn't object at all. I give absolutely zero shits how a person dresses, or whether they wear nail polish and heels or have a buzzcut and steel-toed boots.

The problem is that the term "woman" has historically meant females of the human species... and now it is being retroactively redefined so that "women's locker" and "women's prison" and "women's sports" get forced to include males, even though every single one of us knows that was never the intention.

Redefining a term then using that forced redefinition to attempt to make other people ignore material reality is a problem. Especially when that redefinition is being based on a person's unverifiable internal feelings with no objective means of verification. Self-declared gender identity supplanting sex in law and policy is a really, really, bad idea.

In your opinion, what is the best, most reasonable solution for young trans girls and women, say, in a school locker room? I'm talking about pre-surgical trans people, those who have not and may never decide to have their male genitalia replaced by female genitalia.

In the boy's locker room, many would face a great deal of stress and perhaps even physical and emotional violence. In the girls' locker room, they may (or may not!) make some or all of the girls uncomfortable.

I realize you are concerned about the passingly tiny portion of trans individuals who intend to harm girls or women or those who you believe are only claiming to be trans in order to gain better access to their victims. I think everyone here is aware that there are male and female, cis and trans, individuals who do intend violence, be it physical, emotional or sexual, violence against other people. This is NOT confined to males only or cis males or trans females or any subset of individuals along the male/female continuum.

Some parents are horrified at the idea that a gay or lesbian child might have designs on their perfectly straight child and seek to bar LGBTQ people from their kids' presence. Are you in favor of barring gay and lesbian students from locker rooms with others of their sex/gender? Surely we all know that some tiny subset of these people DO have 'designs' on the straight students but that's passingly rare, don't you think?

 

[Emily Lake]

I have to show ID when I buy wine at the grocery store, and it's a pretty good bet I'm older than you.

It's nothing personal, so why should I take it personally?

Let's try a slightly different approach. Let's say the rules previously had been "ask anyone who looks like they could be under 30 for an ID" and that worked pretty well, and you were 65.

In the last few years, however, there's been a large increase in the number of people self-declaring themselves to be transage, who identify as 35, even though they're actually 18. Some of those people will put on stage make-up, and will dye their hair gray so they look a bit more like a pensioner. They frequently wear cardigans and shawls. They also get really huffy when they're asked for ID, because even though everyone else is quite well aware that they're only 18, they have convinced themselves that their transage identity is more important than their actual age, and that it's offensive to ask them for ID. There's also another group of transage people who are actually 60, but identify as 22. They get botox and facelifts and wear mini skirts and skinny jeans. They get really angry when they're NOT asked for their IDs, because it invalidates their transage identity of being a young person.

These transage people have a tendency to harass individuals and businesses that don't affirm their transage identities. So in a fit of expediency, politicians decide to change the rules and now EVERYBODY has to show Id ALL THE TIME just so that this small group of people will shut the fuck up about their identities. So now, you, who hasn't had to show ID in a few decades, are now required to answer an inane question that is an affront to common sense... because someone somewhere decided it's more important to play along with the transage identities of the squeaky wheels than it is to treat everyone else with some basic sense and decency.

 

[Emily Lake]

Is it? Or is it a reflection of the reality that trans men may not identify themselves as trans at medical appointments abs may indeed be pregnant or plan to get pregnant?

You know what, you're right. You are absolultey correct.

TRANSMEN DO NOT IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS FEMALE IN SITUATIONS WHERE THEIR SEX IS RELEVANT.

And as a result... a bunch of people who are NOT trans, are now being subjected to inane questions just so that the few transmen who aren't smart enough to say "oh by the way, I've got a fully functional uterus, and that might be important for you to know" don't have be reminded that they're actually females. And also so that the few transwomen who really need the entire rest of the world to validate their view of themselves don't get upset that the doctor accurately and appropriately views them as males who cannot get fucking pregnant.

So yeah - you're right. Everyone else has to drop common sense off of a cliff because of a handful of people who aren't smart enough to provide necessary information to their doctors.

FFS, not every doctor is going to ask if I'm epileptic. Guess what I tell every single fucking doctor I deal with, even if I think it's probably irrelevant? "Hey doc, I'm epileptic, thought you ought to know, just in case it makes a difference". I, as a rational and intelligent and caring person, think it would be wildly presumptuous and arrogant of me to expect the entire medical field to start asking every single patient whether or not they're epileptic, just so I don't have to be burdened with taking responsibility for myself.