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Why you should vote for Trump

southernhybrid said:
Israel has been the only democracy in the area, even if it's now showing signs of declining, as are many other democracies. Are we to abandon them? Then what?
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Sooner or later, yes, we will have to. They are about to drag us into a full scale war with Iran. Are you ready for that? Another twenty year long "defensive war" in someone else's country that never seems to end? I'm sure once Trump is in office and committing whatever war crimes his idiot advisors tell him to, all the moderate Democrats will gleefully pretend the middle four years didn't happen, that it was a straight line from the moving of the embassy to the nuking of Tehran. But when we had a chance to de-escalate, we chose to fan the flames and stuff the budget. The collusion of the "left" will be forgotten... by the left. But only by the left.
 
I firmly believe that a war between US and the Tehran regime is inevitable in the short to medium term. Getting it done before the theocrats acquire the bomb is strongly preferable.
 
Derec said:
I firmly believe that a war between US and the Tehran regime is inevitable in the short to medium term. Getting it done before the theocrats acquire the bomb is strongly preferable.
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If the theocrats are going to acquire nuclear weapons they will probably have done so by now.

They probably can't enrich uranium or make weapons grade plutonium themselves, and can be effectively prevented from acquiring the ability to do either pretty much indefinitely - both require fragile and obvious infrastructure, and cannot be done without US and Israeli intelligence being aware, and taking effective steps to sabotage that infrastructure (this has already happened).

The easiest way by far for the mad mullahs in Tehran to get a nuke is to buy one from Vlad Putin. Putin's only concern in this would be to preserve (as far as possible) deniability; Iran is a strong and increasingly necessary ally in the Russian imperialist conquest of Ukraine, and trading a deniable weapon (or, more plausibly, the plutonium with which to make one) for a big shipment of Iranian drones is a distinct possibility.

Iran's recent escalating beligerance towards Israel is obviously driven in large part by the conflict in Gaza; But I do wonder if the Iranians might have a nuclear card up their sleeve too, given the otherwise near suicidal decision to directly attack Israel itself.

I doubt strongly that the IDF is so distracted by Gaza as to be incapable of an overwhelming and disproportionate retaliation against Iran.
 
Politesse said:
I think most Americans agree with you, which is why we are having this weird election between two men who are both disliked by a strong majority of citizens.
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Your whole post makes me sad. Especially the part I've reddened. Almost everyone who knows Biden says he is one of the most likeable men they know! Barack Obama -- perhaps the greatest President of our lifetimes -- picked Joe Biden to be his V.P.

Cite for the "strong majority"? I'll stipulate that millions of stupid Americans dislike Biden now because of the deafening lies blared out them day and night by criminal liars, mostly working in concert with Vladimir Putin. Your peculiar claim saddens me; Have the blaring lies affected you?

Politesse said:
But I assure you I have heard all of these arguments against daring to vote outside of Party before, and while I've personally not yet decided what to do about November, said arguments certainly didn't stop me in 2012 and they won't be a meaningful factor in my decision.
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Do you pee in your friend's swimming pool? Or get out and go use the bathroom? After all, half a liter of urine is unlikely to affect water quality; it's only when several other people pee in the same pool that there's a problem.

Similarly if you vote for Vladimir Putin's puppet -- or even someone like RFK Jr. or Gary Johnson to "show you're an independent thinker" -- Biden might still win election. But if other people took such a rancid position, you might be turning the country over to Vladimir Putin. How do you feel about that?


Politesse said:
"Strategic voting" just isn't my bag, and it's my vote to use as I choose, not Niccolo Machiavelli's. And I'm certainly not going to be caught hating on anyone else for using their franchise as they so choose either. This is supposedly a democracy. If Biden wants Black or Native or Queer or Cuban or Female or Arab votes, it is on him to win them, on him to make the case for our support, not me or anyone else who happens to belong to one of the many marginalized groups that the Democratic Party ineptly panders to once every four years before tossing out like yesterday's dog shit the second it's convenient.
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Oh my. Politesse, you've always struck me as very intelligent and well-educated. Go wash your mouth out with soap! You're not just taking a pee in your fellow countrymen's swimming pool; you're taking a shit. And encouraging others to do the same.

Politesse said:
And if Trump actually wins California ...
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He won't. And the EC system makes a Californian's vote for President almost meaningless. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.
 
"I can't stand him" isn't the reason I'm not voting for Trump. I'm not voting for Trump because he's inherently anti-democratic and will allow the Christian fascists to do whatever they want, which could include ending the world due to their apocalyptic views, but even if they don't do that they'll execute me and my friends/family.
 
Derec said:
I firmly believe that a war between US and the Tehran regime is inevitable in the short to medium term. Getting it done before the theocrats acquire the bomb is strongly preferable.
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Things are certainly much worse than they were eight years ago.

And the actions of the genocidal Netanyahu have caused great long-term damage. Iran and Arabs will all feel "justified" in indulging in blood-lust now.

The world situation is so dire, I dare not predict the future.

BUT eight years ago, we could look to the future with some confidence. Iran is not a particularly evil country. Saudi, Syria, Russia and, yes, perhaps Israel all spring to mind as at least as evil as Iran. China and North Korea are examples of countries which were of much greater concern than Iran. The Iranian PEOPLE tend to admire America: They have a weakish government driven more by stupidity than malice. Remember that Iran offered help to the U.S. after the 9/11 attacks.

Nixon was rightfully applauded for reaching out to China; and Reagan is partly credited for the fall of the Soviet Empire. Obama might have gone down in history as the man who helped lead Iran out of its darkness . . . until the reigns of U.S. power were turned over to a maniacal traitor who pandered to his voter base of hate-filled bigots.

Obama arranged to send Iran's money back to Iran and the liars said that this was U.S.'s money (because it had Benj Franklin's picture on it, I guess). Sadly, even some Infidels here fell for that lie.

Hartmann Report said:
. . . there are many who give lip service to democracy to accomplish their political ends but, in reality, believe that authoritarianism and oligarchy are better ways to rule a nation and keep peace around the world.

And that movement toward authoritarianism and away from democracy is growing.

Freedom House reported in 2021 that:

“[T]he share of countries designated Not Free has reached its highest level since the deterioration of democracy began in 2006, and countries with declines in political rights and civil liberties outnumbered those with gains by the largest margin recorded during the 15-year period. The report downgraded the freedom scores of 73 countries, representing 75 percent of the global population.”

One of those countries they identified as a place where democracy itself is under assault is the USA, where virtually the entire Republican Party has rejected supporting democracy at home and supporting democratic governments abroad.
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Swammerdami said:
And the actions of the genocidal Netanyahu have caused great long-term damage. Iran and Arabs will all feel "justified" in indulging in blood-lust now.
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I don't understand this attitude at all.
Iran and Qatar and others have felt justified in indulging in blood-lust for centuries. Jewish people have consistently been targets of violence, and it ramped up hugely during the last century.

It's why Israel came to be in the first place.

Netanyahu is nothing like genocidal and his defense of Israel is not changing anything except the ability of Palestinians to continue their genocidal ethnic cleansing.
Tom
 
TomC said:
Iran and Qatar and others have felt justified in indulging in blood-lust for centuries.
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That feeling was subdued for a while, until Cheato stepped in to fuck things up like he always does.
 
Swammerdammi said:
. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.
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Standing up for the right of a citizen to vote as they choose, not as they are told they must, is respecting the vote.
 
Politesse said:
Swammerdammi said:
. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.
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Standing up for the right of a citizen to vote as they choose, not as they are told they must, is respecting the vote.
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No one is attempting to tell anyone how they “must” vote, so this retort can safely be tossed on the straw heap.
 
Swammerdami said:
Obama might have gone down in history as the man who helped lead Iran out of its darkness . . . until the reigns of U.S. power were turned over to a maniacal traitor who pandered to his voter base of hate-filled bigots.
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This is so crucial to the current situation.
Obama put the USA and Iran on a path towards peace and prosperity.

Republican Obstructionists torpedoed it immediately. Not only did they turn an important potential ally into an implacable adversary. They also demonstrated to the world that the USA has little interest in peace and cannot be trusted for longer than a political cycle.

Imagine how different the current situation might be if Iran were a US ally. Instead, they're a Russian ally.
Tom
 
pood said:
Politesse said:
Swammerdammi said:
. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.
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Standing up for the right of a citizen to vote as they choose, not as they are told they must, is respecting the vote.
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No one is attempting to tell anyone how they “must” vote, so this retort can safely be tossed on the straw heap.
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But I'm "disrespecting the vote" if my informed loyalty to whomever the Democrats nominate is conditional?
 
Politesse said:
Swammerdammi said:
. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.
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Standing up for the right of a citizen to vote as they choose, not as they are told they must, is respecting the vote.
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Nobody is trying to prevent them. Just pointing out how bizarrely ignorant and stupid they are being.
Tom
 
Politesse said:
pood said:
Politesse said:
Swammerdammi said:
. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.
Click to expand...
Standing up for the right of a citizen to vote as they choose, not as they are told they must, is respecting the vote.
Click to expand...
No one is attempting to tell anyone how they “must” vote, so this retort can safely be tossed on the straw heap.
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But I'm "disrespecting the vote" if my informed loyalty to whomever the Democrats nominate is conditional?
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I don't think that what you describe is "disrespecting the vote". I think that it's more disrespecting your positions. If you are pro-science, pro-environment, pro-women rights, pro-Palestinian rights, and etc you should be voting for the best alternative against Trump. And that is Biden.
 
Harry Bosch said:
Politesse said:
pood said:
Politesse said:
Swammerdammi said:
. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.
Click to expand...
Standing up for the right of a citizen to vote as they choose, not as they are told they must, is respecting the vote.
Click to expand...
No one is attempting to tell anyone how they “must” vote, so this retort can safely be tossed on the straw heap.
Click to expand...
But I'm "disrespecting the vote" if my informed loyalty to whomever the Democrats nominate is conditional?
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I don't think that what you describe is "disrespecting the vote". I think that it's more disrespecting your positions. If you are pro-science, pro-environment, pro-women rights, pro-Palestinian rights, and etc you should be voting for the best alternative against Trump. And that is Biden.
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Under what conditions would you consider it ethical to withhold a vote from Joe Biden?
 
Politesse said:
Harry Bosch said:
Politesse said:
pood said:
Politesse said:
Swammerdammi said:
. But even if you live in California, I think you should treat votes with more respect.
Click to expand...
Standing up for the right of a citizen to vote as they choose, not as they are told they must, is respecting the vote.
Click to expand...
No one is attempting to tell anyone how they “must” vote, so this retort can safely be tossed on the straw heap.
Click to expand...
But I'm "disrespecting the vote" if my informed loyalty to whomever the Democrats nominate is conditional?
Click to expand...
I don't think that what you describe is "disrespecting the vote". I think that it's more disrespecting your positions. If you are pro-science, pro-environment, pro-women rights, pro-Palestinian rights, and etc you should be voting for the best alternative against Trump. And that is Biden.
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Under what conditions would you consider it ethical to withhold a vote from Joe Biden?
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Under different circumstances I would mind less if someone withheld their vote. Doing so in this circumstance is a denial of reality. It's not business as usual anymore.
 
Politesse said:
Elixir said:
Politesse said:
Under what conditions would you consider it ethical to withhold a vote from Joe Biden?
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In this situation?
Complete ignorance borne of immersion in Putin Party Propaganda might give excuse…
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So your support of Biden is, in fact, unconditional?
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No. Biden just happens to be Trump’s main obstacle. If he drops out and Dems offer another candidate I’ll vote for them. My opposition to allowing Trump anywhere near any position of power in government, is unconditional. There is no more dangerous scumbag on the planet.
 
Politesse said:
Under what conditions would you consider it ethical to withhold a vote from Joe Biden?
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What Elixir said.
I cannot imagine circumstances in any way related to the current reality that would make it ethical to withhold a vote from Joe Biden.
None.
If you want to get into Jewish space lasers levels of hypothetical scenarios then sure, but short of that, absolutely none.
Tom
 
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