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The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus vs. ?

Lerner, I am satisfied with my talking imaginary cat. Wise in all things.

We are free to choose our own illusions and delusions.
 
Learner said:
steve_bank said:
Living for eternity in a glorious worry free ecstatic reality with nothing to do but worship a god, boring and a fate worse than death.
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As you illustrate what some may be thinking - going back to those words again.You're either going to be satisfied or disatisfied living under God.
We are free to choose.
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Does anyone choose to be satisfied or unsatisfied, sad or happy, sick or well, turning these mental states on or off at will like a tap?
 
steve_bank said:
Living for eternity in a glorious worry free ecstatic reality with nothing to do but worship a god, boring and a fate worse than death.
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Umm...yeah. H. L. Mencken described it as flapping wings for eternity with the neighborhood green grocer, but it's so much worse than that. Unless you grew up on Walton's Mountain, you probably have a buttload of relatives you'd rather not have to spend time with. If you're like me, quite a few of them are churchy types. They bitch if you send them an R-rated movie, you can't cuss in front of them, etc. So now the most insufferable of them will be in heaven? And if heaven is 6000 miles in perimeter, they can probably find out where you're renting.
I think I already learned everything my Aunt _____ (deleted) had to say. To hear her say it all over again, for eternity, would be...hell. There was a reason that, on all those Christmases where relatives visited, I knew what movies were playing in town so I could see one on Christmas night. Sweet freedom! As opposed to -- heaven, with no movie theaters? Endless worship, with (I'm sure about this) my churchy relatives trying to push closer to the glowing deity, to show their privilege? Yeah, let some believer have my seat. You'll love my Aunt ____.
 
DBT said:
Does anyone choose to be satisfied or unsatisfied, sad or happy, sick or well, turning these mental states on or off at will like a tap?
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Not entirely, but somewhat.
After almost a half century of meditation, I can consciously control many of my metabolic functions to a fair degree. That includes some hormonal stuff, endorphin production etc. Problem is, a lot of the time, I don’t. I lack the will to make myself feel good.
There are still plenty of external stimuli that can and do override the ability to choose to be happy or satisfied. Guess I just ain’t Yogi material.
 
Elixir said:
DBT said:
Does anyone choose to be satisfied or unsatisfied, sad or happy, sick or well, turning these mental states on or off at will like a tap?
Click to expand...
Not entirely, but somewhat.
After almost a half century of meditation, I can consciously control many of my metabolic functions to a fair degree. That includes some hormonal stuff, endorphin production etc. Problem is, a lot of the time, I don’t. I lack the will to make myself feel good.
There are still plenty of external stimuli that can and do override the ability to choose to be happy or satisfied. Guess I just ain’t Yogi material.
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Consciousness is based on both external and internal information.

Fear, anger. stress, boredom, etc, are based on internal and external conditions......where in presumable a perfect state of bliss, heaven, does not exist internally or externally.

So how do you invoke fear at will, how do you invoke resentment or boredom, etc, at will...and why would you want to?
 
DBT said:
So how do you invoke fear at will
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Practice.
DBT said:
, how do you invoke resentment or boredom, etc, at will
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Boredom? lol! It’s gotta be hours and hours of tons of fun for some people, to practice emulating the internal experience of boredom, its physiological and emotional symptoms, associated breathing and heart rate…surely one can hardly be bored with so much to focus on!
DBT said:
..and why would you want to?
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Seriously - to enable me to reduce my own reactivity to circumstance, thereby making me a happier, more effective person. It is really the only thing I can control, to the extent that I actually do (assuming it’s not only an illusion of control, since I can get what I want, but can’t want what I want).
 
Elixir said:
DBT said:
So how do you invoke fear at will
Click to expand...
Practice.
DBT said:
, how do you invoke resentment or boredom, etc, at will
Click to expand...
Boredom? lol! It’s gotta be hours and hours of tons of fun for some people, to practice emulating the internal experience of boredom, its physiological and emotional symptoms, associated breathing and heart rate…surely one can hardly be bored with so much to focus on!
DBT said:
..and why would you want to?
Click to expand...
Seriously - to enable me to reduce my own reactivity to circumstance, thereby making me a happier, more effective person. It is really the only thing I can control, to the extent that I actually do (assuming it’s not only an illusion of control, since I can get what I want, but can’t want what I want).
Click to expand...

Practice? So you can be feeling relaxed and happy, then purely through act of will switch to feelings of anger and resentment?

I don't mean by thinking of something that makes you feel angry or resentful, events that presumably don't exist in heaven.
 
DBT said:
Elixir said:
DBT said:
So how do you invoke fear at will
Click to expand...
Practice.
DBT said:
, how do you invoke resentment or boredom, etc, at will
Click to expand...
Boredom? lol! It’s gotta be hours and hours of tons of fun for some people, to practice emulating the internal experience of boredom, its physiological and emotional symptoms, associated breathing and heart rate…surely one can hardly be bored with so much to focus on!
DBT said:
..and why would you want to?
Click to expand...
Seriously - to enable me to reduce my own reactivity to circumstance, thereby making me a happier, more effective person. It is really the only thing I can control, to the extent that I actually do (assuming it’s not only an illusion of control, since I can get what I want, but can’t want what I want).
Click to expand...

Practice? So you can be feeling relaxed and happy, then purely through act of will switch to feelings of anger and resentment?
Click to expand...
Yes.
DBT said:
I don't mean by thinking of something that makes you feel angry or resentful, events that presumably don't exist in heaven.
Click to expand...
Right. You can certainly do that, but it’s not what I mean. Bypassing the causal agents, recalling only the common physiological manifestations from fear rather than its agents, and directly causing them by will is not a utilitarian application of the ability to do so*. But lifting deadweights doesn’t do any useful work either. Both can be good for a person in appropriate amounts and can strengthen a kind of “muscle”.

* for me, it’s a byproduct of meditation, not an objective. YMMV.
 
Elixir said:
DBT said:
Elixir said:
DBT said:
So how do you invoke fear at will
Click to expand...
Practice.
DBT said:
, how do you invoke resentment or boredom, etc, at will
Click to expand...
Boredom? lol! It’s gotta be hours and hours of tons of fun for some people, to practice emulating the internal experience of boredom, its physiological and emotional symptoms, associated breathing and heart rate…surely one can hardly be bored with so much to focus on!
DBT said:
..and why would you want to?
Click to expand...
Seriously - to enable me to reduce my own reactivity to circumstance, thereby making me a happier, more effective person. It is really the only thing I can control, to the extent that I actually do (assuming it’s not only an illusion of control, since I can get what I want, but can’t want what I want).
Click to expand...

Practice? So you can be feeling relaxed and happy, then purely through act of will switch to feelings of anger and resentment?
Click to expand...
Yes.
DBT said:
I don't mean by thinking of something that makes you feel angry or resentful, events that presumably don't exist in heaven.
Click to expand...
Right. You can certainly do that, but it’s not what I mean. Bypassing the causal agents, recalling only the common physiological manifestations from fear rather than its agents, and directly causing them by will is not a utilitarian application of the ability to do so*. But lifting deadweights doesn’t do any useful work either. Both can be good for a person in appropriate amounts and can strengthen a kind of “muscle”.

* for me, it’s a byproduct of meditation, not an objective. YMMV.
Click to expand...

So you agree with Learner on this issue? That the inhabitants of Heaven have the ability to decide to feel dissatisfied, angry or resentful as an act of will that's unrelated to the nature of God or the conditions in Heaven?
 
DBT said:
That the inhabitants of Heaven have the ability to decide to feel dissatisfied, angry or resentful as an act of will that's unrelated to the nature of God or the conditions in Heaven?
Click to expand...
Not quite. Inhabitants of earth do have the ability to feel things as an act of will. Whether the decision to feel something in particular is their own, is a completely different question.
 
Elixir said:
DBT said:
That the inhabitants of Heaven have the ability to decide to feel dissatisfied, angry or resentful as an act of will that's unrelated to the nature of God or the conditions in Heaven?
Click to expand...
Not quite. Inhabitants of earth do have the ability to feel things as an act of will. Whether the decision to feel something in particular is their own, is a completely different question.
Click to expand...

But that's the point. That conscious will doesn't emerge without reason. That the will to want something or do something doesn't pop out of a vacuum, nor does the associated thoughts and emotions.

If you feel resentment, that resentment is related to something. That it's kind of hard to feel resentment without something to be resentful of.

And if you do have the ability to generate resentment at will, what is it related to? Nothing? Just a case of, 'oh, at the moment I need resentment in my life?'
 
DBT said:
That conscious will doesn't emerge without reason. That the will to want something or do something doesn't pop out of a vacuum, nor does the associated thoughts and emotions.
Click to expand...
Yup. We are, in the end, just components of a deterministic universe. “Free will” is definitely a thing, but it is neither free nor is it our own.
 
Elixir said:
DBT said:
That conscious will doesn't emerge without reason. That the will to want something or do something doesn't pop out of a vacuum, nor does the associated thoughts and emotions.
Click to expand...
Yup. We are, in the end, just components of a deterministic universe. “Free will” is definitely a thing, but it is neither free nor is it our own.
Click to expand...

So where does that leave Learner with his claim that if the inhabitants of heaven feel disatisfied, it is because they chose to be disatisfied?
 
DBT said:
So where does that leave Learner with his claim that if the inhabitants of heaven feel disatisfied, it is because they chose to be disatisfied?
Click to expand...
That guy has all four feet in the leg-hold trap of organized religion. It not that “that’s where the universe leaves him”, if you subscribe to free will. It’s that he prefers the cozy comfort of illusion to the hard edge of cold reality. Whatever … it probably doesn’t interfere with his experience of life as badly as many - or most - religions. Inhabitants of heaven can do or experience whatever he wants to think they do or experience, all without influencing his choice of what to eat for breakfast.
My real feeling about godders tends toward “not my circus, not my monkeys”.
I am singularly incurious about it. There are many many much more interesting things and people to experience, than human animals struggling in traps of their own device.
 
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DBT said:
And if you do have the ability to generate resentment at will, what is it related to? Nothing? Just a case of, 'oh, at the moment I need resentment in my life?'
Click to expand...
Exactly - nothing. That’s the point!
It never is. the things we identify as external causes of resentment are not the root of the experience. It’s a purely internal phenomenon, which can be verified by producing the feeling at will in the absence of external conditions to blame it on.
There is no “point” of which I’m aware, other than to remind oneself that such things ARE purely internal.

My mom used to chide me and my siblings all the time: “boredom is within you”. Sounded like copout deluxe, to me the child. But it’s true. Knowing that doesn’t prevent boredom, but encourages efforts to mitigate it. If successful, the feeling of boredom can be dispelled, and rarely if ever have I thought “gee, wow, now I’m not bored!”
 
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DBT said:
Learner said:
steve_bank said:
Living for eternity in a glorious worry free ecstatic reality with nothing to do but worship a god, boring and a fate worse than death.
Click to expand...
As you illustrate what some may be thinking - going back to those words again.You're either going to be satisfied or disatisfied living under God.
We are free to choose.
Click to expand...

Does anyone choose to be satisfied or unsatisfied, sad or happy, sick or well, turning these mental states on or off at will like a tap?
Click to expand...
Assuming you mean heaven in the same context (if you can entertain the idea) - let's see.

Considering heaven would be free from all of the evils in the world today.

Would you or anyone here think ideally, they could be quite satisfied and happy living in a Kingdom under God/Jesus?
 
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I wouldn't. An eternity spent in worship? Absolutely not. Even an eternity of learning new things doesn't appeal to me. Honestly, the idea of existing forever sounds worse than death itself. There comes a point where, in the span of eternity, all and eternity itself loses meaning. But that's just me, I don't expect everyone to share my opinion.

Edit for on topic: The Resurrection: A Critical Inquiry- by Michael J. Alter

I'm certain someone recommended it already.
 
Learner said:
DBT said:
Learner said:
steve_bank said:
Living for eternity in a glorious worry free ecstatic reality with nothing to do but worship a god, boring and a fate worse than death.
Click to expand...
As you illustrate what some may be thinking - going back to those words again.You're either going to be satisfied or disatisfied living under God.
We are free to choose.
Click to expand...

Does anyone choose to be satisfied or unsatisfied, sad or happy, sick or well, turning these mental states on or off at will like a tap?
Click to expand...
Assuming you mean heaven in the same context (if you can entertain the idea) - let's see.

Considering heaven would be free from all the evils of the world.

Would you or anyone here think ideally, they could be quite satisfied and happy living in a Kingdom under God/Jesus?
Click to expand...

The question is, what would be the reason for the presence of dissatisfaction, dissent or rebellion in Heaven, which is taken to be a perfect place?
 
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