The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus vs. ?

[ideologyhunter]

Mike Davis' book The Atheist's Introduction to the New Testament is a brief (179 pp.) discussion of internal and external problems with the NT. It is pitched to the layman, and misses a number of contradictions that I wish he'd put in. (Go back to Cheerful Charlie's post #17 on pg 1 for a short list of these problems.)
If the four gospel writers presented their testimony in court, one after the other, they'd have a hard time with a well-prepared prosecutor. Can you imagine Matthew's predicament? "So, Matt -- may I call you Matt? -- you say that many dead people came out of their graves and walked around in Jerusalem when Jesus was executed. And you say many people saw them. Many!! Yet your three fellow authors report no such event. Do you have ANY evidence from ANY other source that these -- these zombie people -- got out of their graves? Can you supply any names of people who saw this happen? And incidentally, where did the 'dead' folks go after they walked around town? Did they take rooms at an inn? Did they buy lunch for their fellow zombies? Did they climb back in their graves? Well, DID they? Let the record show, witness is shaking head no...Now, Matt, let's go to the tomb story. You say that Jesus' mother and 'the other Mary' went to the tomb and experienced a violent earthquake, at which time they saw an angel roll away the stone. But we've heard from the other three writers, and they tell us that no such thing happened. They say the women got there and found the stone was already rolled away. No earthquake, no angel at work. I must ask you again, are Mark, Luke, and John hiding something, or did you in fact make up the earthquake story? Let the record show, witness is scowling at the floor."
At any rate, if you go into this subject, see if the author covers the basic controversies, on which the gospels do not achieve four-part alignment:
On what day was Jesus executed? (Passover, or, in John's gospel, the day after Passover?)
Did he carry his cross, or was it carried for him?
What was the hour of the crucifixion?
Did both of the thieves revile Jesus, or did one repent and ask for salvation? (If one did, how come Matthew and Mark didn't include this faith-promoting story?)
What were Jesus' last words? (Three versions are given in the four gospels)
Who went to the tomb on "Resurrection morning"?
What/who did they encounter?
What did they do next? And what did Jesus tell them to convey to the disciples?
How many post-Resurrection appearances of Jesus were there?
Christians like to pretend that the gospels are either eye-witness accounts (which they do not claim to be) or based on well-preserved eye-witness testimony (unknowable), and that God Himself inspired the writing of the gospels. But even tiny details like the genealogy of Jesus don't harmonize...and details about the most momentous event, the key event on which the religion is based, are impossible to harmonize among the four gospels (and Acts, which sometimes comments on the Passion week.)

 

[guyWithAquestion]

Dear Swammerdami,

Thanks for your reply.

You are using the perspective of natural science to analyze the prospects of Jesus's resurrection. But are Christians claiming that Jesus rose again through natural processes?

The key paragraph in my post was

If you are prepared to accept the Christian message, and that Jesus did other impossible things, e.g. turning water into wine, then I will not try to dissuade you. Regard this post as an explanation of why *I* do not believe.

Regarding hallucination theory, you quoted some of my arguments against it, and then said:

I find NONE of these arguments convincing. Rather than Hallucination, self-hypnosis or mass hypnosis might have been in play.

As I said on that blog post, I couldn't find any psychologists/psychiatrist promoting the disciples-hallucinated theory. Do you know of any psychologists/psychologists promoting the disciples-experienced-mass-hypnosis theory?

No. But what does "mass hypnosis" even mean? Today we have charismatic preachers who are able to induce some of their followers to "speak in tongues." Similar charismatic preaching can induce followers to perceive a spiritual Jesus. Is this not akin to "mass hypnosis"?

I fall back on Bishop Spong's book to explain the "Resurrection." I am NOT saying his speculation is certainly correct -- it's just one book I happened to buy by chance -- but it seems worth considering BECAUSE it is the speculation of a devout Christian who believes in Everlasting Life and who has studied relevant documents. In the book he mentions several other Christian scholars who do not believe in a physical Resurrection.

In Spong's reconstruction, the Gospels' depiction of the last week of Jesus' life is almost all fiction; what is left is mostly in distorted chronology. There was no Judas. The only truthful detail between arrest and burial (excepting the fact of crucifixion by Pontius Pilate) was "And they all forsook him and fled." He was dumped in a mass grave, and his particular body never identified. If the "Empty Tomb" has any reality, it is just Mary Magdalene's dismay at finding how the corpses of Pilate's victims had been treated.

Simon (probably not yet "Peter") crossed the Jordan for safety and returned via desert to Galilee, where he grieved for months. He worked as a fisherman and brooded. How could the man he worshiped as a Messiah have died hung from a tree? How could the Jewish religious authorities have been wrong about him? One day after a particularly good catch of fish, he saw in a flash that Jesus WAS the Messiah, and that he would live on if the disciples followed his teachings and preached his methods. Simon Peter organized the Triumphal ("Palm Sunday") entry to Jerusalem during the Feast of Tabernacles. Plenty of scriptural (midrash) evidence can be found for this chronology.

You might be right to dismiss this speculation if it were from an atheist. In fact it comes from a devout Christian Bishop.

Hi Swammer,

I think the last chunk of your response I hadn't gotten to yet was your comments on Spong. However, I also started thinking I should go ahead and start working my way through the Ehrman book (How Jesus Became God), because then I could kill two birds with one stone. Since there seems to be significant alignment between Ehrman and Spong, and I was going to read Ehrman anyway, I think I'll dive into the Ehrman book because it should better prepare me to discuss Spong's arguments.

(You probably knew about this already, but Ehrman wrote a glowing In Memoriam for Spong, even going so far as to say that he and Spong had similar missions.)

However, one item they apparently disagree on is Judas. Per your comment, Spong contends there was no Judas; Ehrman contends (with "relative certainty") that Judas was one of the twelve and did in fact betray Jesus. Ehrman says this "datum is not only multiply attested by independent sources, it passes with flying colors the critierion of dissimilarity". Interested in your response to this, but I have to warn you I'm probably going to transition to the Ehrman book soon and so my response will be delayed.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, Swammer.

GWAQ

 

[BH]

Christian arguments on the forum have been:

1. The gospels are eyewitness accounts with multiple sightings.
2. A lot of peole for 2000 years beleve it is true, therefore it must be true.

Hello,

I'm going to read The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, by Gary Habermas. Can you please tell me which book you think would be the strongest, most direct counterpoint to the Habermas book?

Thank you.

​

I recommend the OT. It shows that a resurrection is not an attribute of the Messiah, rendering Jesus a fraud.

The resurrection doesn't need to be mentioned in the OT. Why should it? According to who?

The Messiah i.e. Jesus being the very example of the 'resurrection' is aptly the one who's announcing it.

I could be wrong but he may be referring to Elijah and Elisha. According to the Bible those two rose people from the dead but are not the messiah.

 

[BH]

Wasn't there an ancient play or story where a man married a woman and she was abducted. The man searched and searched for her and then she died. He showed up at the tomb she was buried in and her body was gone. The man was upset because he thought one of the gods may have taken her

 

[Tigers!]

Christian arguments on the forum have been:

1. The gospels are eyewitness accounts with multiple sightings.
2. A lot of peole for 2000 years beleve it is true, therefore it must be true.

Hello,

I'm going to read The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, by Gary Habermas. Can you please tell me which book you think would be the strongest, most direct counterpoint to the Habermas book?

Thank you.

​

I recommend the OT. It shows that a resurrection is not an attribute of the Messiah, rendering Jesus a fraud.

The resurrection doesn't need to be mentioned in the OT. Why should it? According to who?

The Messiah i.e. Jesus being the very example of the 'resurrection' is aptly the one who's announcing it.

I could be wrong but he may be referring to Elijah and Elisha. According to the Bible those two rose people from the dead but are not the messiah.

Elijah and Enoch are two mentioned in the OT as being taken up by God and not dying.

 

[guyWithAquestion]

To all the commenters over the past couple months that I haven't responded to: Thanks for your comments, but, instead of dialoguing with you all, I'm going to spend my time going through How Jesus Became God (at least the two chapters on the resurrection), the book by atheist Bible scholar Bart Ehrman. I'm planning to blog about my findings as well.
If you want to see those future posts, or see which of your questions I've already addressed on my blog, just let me know and I'll give you my blog link.

 

[steve_bank]

Faith is a a belief in something you feel without any proof.

It comes down to a faith in a short set of writings by unknown authors who say somebody saw somebody walking around after allegedly executed.

Sometimes I think Christians who come here are not trying to convince us, they are trying to convince themselves.

 

[guyWithAquestion]

Hi Steve, though I've engaged (and am currently engaged) in long debates with both atheists and Christians on my blog and in other forums, my agenda on here was to get book recommendations, as evidenced by how I titled the thread and my initial comments. And you guys did give me what I asked for, so, thanks!

 

[steve_bank]

To be direct, books based on the four inconsistent gospels have no more validity than the gospels themselves.

To me it is binary, you believe and have faith in the restriction or you do not. Without the resurrection myth and a belief a glorious wondrous eternal after life Christianity falls apart.

 

[Learner]

To be direct, books based on the four inconsistent gospels have no more validity than the gospels themselves.

Curiously. Inconsistent with each other? If that's what you mean. What would you say if they were 'identical' word for word?

To me it is binary, you believe and have faith in the restriction or you do not. Without the resurrection myth and a belief a glorious wondrous eternal after life Christianity falls apart.

Alas, we have the resurrection, and Christianity has not fallen.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Christianity is losing members in droves, in western Europe since the mid-20th Century and in the U.S. over the last 3 decades. See Pew Research Center, 'In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace.' Their study predicts a net loss of 66 million adherents by 2050, with 40 million converts versus 106 million transitioning out, 'mostly to the religiously unaffiliated category.' Some mainstream denominations have cratered dramatically in the past quarter century.

 

[bilby]

Christianity is losing members in droves, in western Europe since the mid-20th Century and in the U.S. over the last 3 decades. See Pew Research Center, 'In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace.' Their study predicts a net loss of 66 million adherents by 2050, with 40 million converts versus 106 million transitioning out, 'mostly to the religiously unaffiliated category.' Some mainstream denominations have cratered dramatically in the past quarter century.

The Church of England has essentially ceased to exist. What remains is a handful of octogenarian church-goers, and a handful of clergymen who have massively disproportionate influence on government.

From the CofE's own report:

The Worshipping Community of a church is defined as those people who attend worship regularly, once a month or more (whether in-person or “at home”).

The total Worshipping Community was 1,113,000 people in 2019; 1,031,000 people in 2020; 966,000 people in 2021; and 984,000 people in 2022.

The Church of England’s Worshipping Community in 2022 was 1.7% of the population of England.

The reported age distribution of churches’ Worshipping Communities has changed somewhat since 2019, with a greater proportion aged 70 and over in 2022 than in 2019 (Table 2). It continues to be the case that people aged 70 and over make up a considerably larger proportion of the Church of England’s Worshipping Community than of the population of England.

 

[stanley]

Hello,

I'm going to read The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, by Gary Habermas. Can you please tell me which book you think would be the strongest, most direct counterpoint to the Habermas book?

Thank you.

​

I'm guessing that if you have more than a few working neurons and the honesty to use them, you'll be able to shred whatever "argument" or "evidence" that book presents. The argument that anyone resembling Jesus existed at all is quite weak and based solely on the Bible. The argument he existed and was crucified despite no record of it outside the Bible is even weaker. Add the supernatural notion that he died and rose again three days later and you are going up against all of known biological and medical science.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Hello,

Yes, absolutely! I am going to read The Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond the Grave. edited by Robert M. Price and Jeffrey Jay Lowder, unless I get lazy and decide not to. This book is allegedly a collection of essays that critically examine the resurrection claim or so I am told.

You're welcome.

 

[steve_bank]

To be direct, books based on the four inconsistent gospels have no more validity than the gospels themselves.

Curiously. Inconsistent with each other? If that's what you mean. What would you say if they were 'identical' word for word?

To me it is binary, you believe and have faith in the restriction or you do not. Without the resurrection myth and a belief a glorious wondrous eternal after life Christianity falls apart.

Alas, we have the resurrection, and Christianity has not fallen.

I mean speculation no matter how lengthy and elaborate is still based on four sparse gospels by unknown authors which do not all agree is just speculation.

That Christianity has existed for so long is more a matter of politics and power. Islam hass peersisted. I read that Hinduism is the oldest tradition. Buddhism predated Christianity,.

Your argument that the resurrection is true because Christianity persisted is false.

The sightings of Big Foot persist, therefore Big Foot exists.

 

[Learner]

To be direct, books based on the four inconsistent gospels have no more validity than the gospels themselves.

Curiously. Inconsistent with each other? If that's what you mean. What would you say if they were 'identical' word for word?

To me it is binary, you believe and have faith in the restriction or you do not. Without the resurrection myth and a belief a glorious wondrous eternal after life Christianity falls apart.

Alas, we have the resurrection, and Christianity has not fallen.

I mean speculation no matter how lengthy and elaborate is still based on four sparse gospels by unknown authors which do not all agree is just speculation.

Witnesses of the Titanic sinking,had between them different recollections of the traumatic event. For example: Some said the ship 'broke in half' while part of the ship was in the air at one end. Some said it just went under. Some weren't so sure. These are normal to have describing variations, when there are 'more than one' person witnessing the same event!
(Frank Turek explains this better)

It is often seen suspicious to criminal investigators when people have identical almost word for word stories - each giving a carbon-copy of a made up "personal" recollection. (Former Detective J.Warner Wallace explains this better)

Gospels have named authors to them. These names were known to be people who existed in the early church... passed on throughout the church.

So how are they said to be unknown again?

Is it like, when All of that, that was written about the pharaohs of Egypt, were not actually written/or chiselled-in-stone by the pharaohs themselves,but were instead actually written by unknown individuals with writing skills?

That Christianity has existed for so long is more a matter of politics and power. Islam hass peersisted. I read that Hinduism is the oldest tradition. Buddhism predated Christianity,.

The bible 'already' acknowledges the practices of other religions that were older, and funny enough: new-covenants anyway... introduce new traditions - the DNA core structure of the Abrahamic God remains the same.

Your argument that the resurrection is true because Christianity persisted is false.

The sightings of Big Foot persist, therefore Big Foot exists.

I suppose that's another way to example an "unknown author" since that isn't my argument, I didn't dictate to you, to write it...but we can attribute this writing to you steve, just by reading my post, where I'm denying the argument is mine.

 

[steve_bank]

WE have pictures of the Fitanic on the sea flor.

That is exactly the point. Given how people relate verbally events and events get retold orally there is no way to know what an HJ might have said and done form the gospels.

The gospels are not 'eye witness' accounts. Certainly not as we have today in a journalist sense.
\The kids game.

Line up 10 kids. Whisper a story in the ear of the first kid who in turn whispers in the next. The kid at end of the line will recite a corrupter story.

Anyone who has worked in a large or even a small company will know how rumors get started and repeated. How personal gossip gets started and repeated.

I grew up thinking the Arthurian story was based in fact. It turns out a monk wrote A History Of Bitain and included a mix of old folk tales. t was a best seller of the day.

There is no evidence of any large scale conflict of the alleged groups. Archeology andgenetics show the two groups were peaceful farmers with intermarriage.

Point being the gospels at least in part had the blanks filled in by what people thought Jesus shulld or may have said.

Adding to that the obvious influence of Greek mythology, Jesus the demigod. Human mother god father. Some of the supernatural powers of the god father. The son of god dies in an heroic act and goes to be with the father god.

 

[Elixir]

“The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus”​

Right now I’m all for it.
If Jesus would just show up and tell DJT to withdraw and that if he would simply go to jail like a good boy, God might spare him an eternity in The Lake-o-FAHR!!
… yeah I’d appreciate that.

 

[steve_bank]

Living for eternity in a glorious worry free ecstatic reality with nothing to do but worship a god, boring and a fate worse than death.

 

[Learner]

Living for eternity in a glorious worry free ecstatic reality with nothing to do but worship a god, boring and a fate worse than death.

As you illustrate what some may be thinking - going back to those words again.You're either going to be satisfied or disatisfied living under God.
We are free to choose.