Lumpenproletariat
Veteran Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2014
- Messages
- 2,599
- Basic Beliefs
- ---- "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts."
How much of the historical record has to be flushed down the toilet in order to ensure that the gospel accounts are excluded as evidence?
Whoops! Run that by me again. That doesn't disqualify Josephus as a separate independent source, does it?
Note: Is not DrZoidberg here giving an argument which negates virtually ALL historical facts?
I.e.,
So DrZoidberg here rejects Josephus as a source for history. And why? Because Josephus used another source for some facts, which disqualifies Josephus as a source for historical facts. Wouldn't this rule throw into doubt a huge amount of our historical record? Which historians did NOT rely on earlier sources?
And this reasoning is based on the Chinese Whispers game, which here means that if the information is received by one person and passed on to another, like Josephus took some information from Philo and sent it on in his own writing, the end result is that we get a distortion of what the original source said, thus making our later source unreliable, or not a separate independent source, thus casting doubt onto history transmitted from one source to another.
resuming the above post:
But the "failure of your evidence" means that Josephus is unreliable for historical events because he relied on Philo for some facts. The "Chinese Whispers" game not only rules out the Gospels, because they pass on something taken from earlier sources, but it rules out many historians and documents (maybe ALL). It rules out Josephus, according to DrZoidberg, about whose post I said,
"How do we know the Jesus miracle acts never really happened in history? Because . . . Because NO historical events ever happened. The entire historical record comes from sources we cannot trust. This is basically the reason for not believing the gospel accounts."
Or, to tone it down, if Josephus is tossed out simply because he made use of an earlier source, how many other historians have to also be tossed out?
And "how history works" means Josephus cannot be used as a source, because he relied on Philo for some facts. And by extension then, ANY historian who relied on an earlier source cannot be used as a source for history. That's how the "Chinese Whispers" game works, according to Zoid, who says it rules out historians or sources who used any previous source.
So it's not just the Gospels which have to be tossed out as sources for history, but any documents written by someone who relied on an earlier source.
What "failure"? In the above post you're referencing, didn't Zoid say Josephus is unacceptable as a source for history?
Again:
Isn't Zoid saying here that Josephus is disqualified as a separate independent source?
Isn't it an "absurdity" to disqualify Josephus as a legitimate source for history? How many others must also be disqualified? Half or most of our sources for history? Isn't there something absurd about that?
Why shouldn't I throw a tantrum, if this is the reason given why the Gospel accounts are excluded as evidence? By this reason, shouldn't half or most of our sources for history be excluded?
Will you ever give a serious reason why the Gospel accounts must be excluded as "evidence" for what happened? If all you can do is just repeat this slogan, that they don't qualify as "evidence" because they relied on earlier sources, then you're not explaining how they are different than all the other documents which do qualify as "evidence."
You're citing someone who said Josephus has to be disqualified as a legitimate source because he relied on an earlier source. Your reasoning ends up relying on the Chinese Whispers game fallacy which would rule out many or most of our standard sources for history.
How do we know the Jesus miracle acts never really happened in history? Because . . .
Because NO historical events ever happened. The entire historical record comes from sources we cannot trust. This is basically the reason for not believing the gospel accounts.
But we have similar multiple independent sources that corroborate the Jesus miracle events. Just because Luke and Matthew rely on Mark does not mean they are not independent sources. Josephus also relied on Philo for some of his facts, but this does not disqualify him as a separate independent source.
Yes, it does. If you have ever . . .
Whoops! Run that by me again. That doesn't disqualify Josephus as a separate independent source, does it?
Yes, it does. If you have ever played the game Chinese Whispers you will understand how this works. Please go and play the game now and report back on your findings. I guarantee your mind will be blown.
Note: Is not DrZoidberg here giving an argument which negates virtually ALL historical facts?
I.e.,
Josephus relied on Philo for some facts, and yet surely this does not disqualify Josephus as a legitimate source for history. ???
To which Zoid replies "Yes, it does."
To which Zoid replies "Yes, it does."
So DrZoidberg here rejects Josephus as a source for history. And why? Because Josephus used another source for some facts, which disqualifies Josephus as a source for historical facts. Wouldn't this rule throw into doubt a huge amount of our historical record? Which historians did NOT rely on earlier sources?
And this reasoning is based on the Chinese Whispers game, which here means that if the information is received by one person and passed on to another, like Josephus took some information from Philo and sent it on in his own writing, the end result is that we get a distortion of what the original source said, thus making our later source unreliable, or not a separate independent source, thus casting doubt onto history transmitted from one source to another.
resuming the above post:
How do you know there's any such game as this? You probably misunderstood whoever told you about it. All facts of history are debunked, if you're right. Meaning you really don't know that this game ever existed.
According to your reasoning here, ALL communication is disproved, and no true information can ever be transmitted from one human to another. So you have to throw out ALL the history books and all history classes and everything we've ever relied on for information about past events. Including whatever you were told about this "Chinese Whispers" game. Or whatever you read about it or heard about it from anyone.
Please go and play the game now and report back on your findings.
. . . I can't even play the game, because my source about where to find the game being played is not reliable. . . . I can't rely on anything anyone tells me, if you're correct, including anything about this game.
You might have the wrong name for this game, because you might have misunderstood whoever told you the name of it, or they misunderstood whoever told them. So it's pointless to try to find this game or play it.
I guarantee your mind will be blown.
All knowledge of anything, or any communicating of any knowledge, is blown, if you're to be taken seriously.
Why is it that all arguments for not believing the gospel accounts and the Jesus miracle stories end up being an argument against believing any history at all? from any source?
Well, that's an adult way to deal with the failure of your evidence.
But the "failure of your evidence" means that Josephus is unreliable for historical events because he relied on Philo for some facts. The "Chinese Whispers" game not only rules out the Gospels, because they pass on something taken from earlier sources, but it rules out many historians and documents (maybe ALL). It rules out Josephus, according to DrZoidberg, about whose post I said,
"How do we know the Jesus miracle acts never really happened in history? Because . . . Because NO historical events ever happened. The entire historical record comes from sources we cannot trust. This is basically the reason for not believing the gospel accounts."
Or, to tone it down, if Josephus is tossed out simply because he made use of an earlier source, how many other historians have to also be tossed out?
If you don't like how history works, pretend that history doesn't work at all.
And "how history works" means Josephus cannot be used as a source, because he relied on Philo for some facts. And by extension then, ANY historian who relied on an earlier source cannot be used as a source for history. That's how the "Chinese Whispers" game works, according to Zoid, who says it rules out historians or sources who used any previous source.
So it's not just the Gospels which have to be tossed out as sources for history, but any documents written by someone who relied on an earlier source.
Have yourself a little tantrum and pretend you've got an argument-by-absurdity, rather than just a failure of your actual argument.
What "failure"? In the above post you're referencing, didn't Zoid say Josephus is unacceptable as a source for history?
Again:
Just because Luke and Matthew rely on Mark does not mean they are not independent sources. Josephus also relied on Philo for some of his facts, but this does not disqualify him as a separate independent source.
Zoid: Yes, it does [disqualify him as a separate independent source]. If you have ever played the game Chinese Whispers you will understand how this works.
Isn't Zoid saying here that Josephus is disqualified as a separate independent source?
Isn't it an "absurdity" to disqualify Josephus as a legitimate source for history? How many others must also be disqualified? Half or most of our sources for history? Isn't there something absurd about that?
Why shouldn't I throw a tantrum, if this is the reason given why the Gospel accounts are excluded as evidence? By this reason, shouldn't half or most of our sources for history be excluded?
Will you ever give a serious reason why the Gospel accounts must be excluded as "evidence" for what happened? If all you can do is just repeat this slogan, that they don't qualify as "evidence" because they relied on earlier sources, then you're not explaining how they are different than all the other documents which do qualify as "evidence."
Yes, and if I gasp and choke to death it will be YOUR fault, for not giving me a legitimate reason why the Gospel accounts have to be excluded as evidence. I'll keep whining and throwing a tantrum and making a fuss -- Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! -- until you finally give a real reason why these documents -- and ONLY these documents -- are disqualified as sources for what happened in the 1st century.Are you going to hold your breath, next, until your text turns blue?
You're citing someone who said Josephus has to be disqualified as a legitimate source because he relied on an earlier source. Your reasoning ends up relying on the Chinese Whispers game fallacy which would rule out many or most of our standard sources for history.
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