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120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

How much of the historical record has to be flushed down the toilet in order to ensure that the gospel accounts are excluded as evidence?

How do we know the Jesus miracle acts never really happened in history? Because . . .

Because NO historical events ever happened. The entire historical record comes from sources we cannot trust. This is basically the reason for not believing the gospel accounts.

But we have similar multiple independent sources that corroborate the Jesus miracle events. Just because Luke and Matthew rely on Mark does not mean they are not independent sources. Josephus also relied on Philo for some of his facts, but this does not disqualify him as a separate independent source.

Yes, it does. If you have ever . . .

Whoops! Run that by me again. That doesn't disqualify Josephus as a separate independent source, does it?

Yes, it does. If you have ever played the game Chinese Whispers you will understand how this works. Please go and play the game now and report back on your findings. I guarantee your mind will be blown.

Note: Is not DrZoidberg here giving an argument which negates virtually ALL historical facts?

I.e.,

Josephus relied on Philo for some facts, and yet surely this does not disqualify Josephus as a legitimate source for history. ???

To which Zoid replies "Yes, it does."

So DrZoidberg here rejects Josephus as a source for history. And why? Because Josephus used another source for some facts, which disqualifies Josephus as a source for historical facts. Wouldn't this rule throw into doubt a huge amount of our historical record? Which historians did NOT rely on earlier sources?

And this reasoning is based on the Chinese Whispers game, which here means that if the information is received by one person and passed on to another, like Josephus took some information from Philo and sent it on in his own writing, the end result is that we get a distortion of what the original source said, thus making our later source unreliable, or not a separate independent source, thus casting doubt onto history transmitted from one source to another.

resuming the above post:

How do you know there's any such game as this? You probably misunderstood whoever told you about it. All facts of history are debunked, if you're right. Meaning you really don't know that this game ever existed.

According to your reasoning here, ALL communication is disproved, and no true information can ever be transmitted from one human to another. So you have to throw out ALL the history books and all history classes and everything we've ever relied on for information about past events. Including whatever you were told about this "Chinese Whispers" game. Or whatever you read about it or heard about it from anyone.


Please go and play the game now and report back on your findings.

. . . I can't even play the game, because my source about where to find the game being played is not reliable. . . . I can't rely on anything anyone tells me, if you're correct, including anything about this game.

You might have the wrong name for this game, because you might have misunderstood whoever told you the name of it, or they misunderstood whoever told them. So it's pointless to try to find this game or play it.


I guarantee your mind will be blown.

All knowledge of anything, or any communicating of any knowledge, is blown, if you're to be taken seriously.

Why is it that all arguments for not believing the gospel accounts and the Jesus miracle stories end up being an argument against believing any history at all? from any source?


Well, that's an adult way to deal with the failure of your evidence.

But the "failure of your evidence" means that Josephus is unreliable for historical events because he relied on Philo for some facts. The "Chinese Whispers" game not only rules out the Gospels, because they pass on something taken from earlier sources, but it rules out many historians and documents (maybe ALL). It rules out Josephus, according to DrZoidberg, about whose post I said,

"How do we know the Jesus miracle acts never really happened in history? Because . . . Because NO historical events ever happened. The entire historical record comes from sources we cannot trust. This is basically the reason for not believing the gospel accounts."

Or, to tone it down, if Josephus is tossed out simply because he made use of an earlier source, how many other historians have to also be tossed out?


If you don't like how history works, pretend that history doesn't work at all.

And "how history works" means Josephus cannot be used as a source, because he relied on Philo for some facts. And by extension then, ANY historian who relied on an earlier source cannot be used as a source for history. That's how the "Chinese Whispers" game works, according to Zoid, who says it rules out historians or sources who used any previous source.

So it's not just the Gospels which have to be tossed out as sources for history, but any documents written by someone who relied on an earlier source.


Have yourself a little tantrum and pretend you've got an argument-by-absurdity, rather than just a failure of your actual argument.

What "failure"? In the above post you're referencing, didn't Zoid say Josephus is unacceptable as a source for history?

Again:

Just because Luke and Matthew rely on Mark does not mean they are not independent sources. Josephus also relied on Philo for some of his facts, but this does not disqualify him as a separate independent source.

Zoid: Yes, it does [disqualify him as a separate independent source]. If you have ever played the game Chinese Whispers you will understand how this works.

Isn't Zoid saying here that Josephus is disqualified as a separate independent source?

Isn't it an "absurdity" to disqualify Josephus as a legitimate source for history? How many others must also be disqualified? Half or most of our sources for history? Isn't there something absurd about that?

Why shouldn't I throw a tantrum, if this is the reason given why the Gospel accounts are excluded as evidence? By this reason, shouldn't half or most of our sources for history be excluded?

Will you ever give a serious reason why the Gospel accounts must be excluded as "evidence" for what happened? If all you can do is just repeat this slogan, that they don't qualify as "evidence" because they relied on earlier sources, then you're not explaining how they are different than all the other documents which do qualify as "evidence."


Are you going to hold your breath, next, until your text turns blue?
Yes, and if I gasp and choke to death it will be YOUR fault, for not giving me a legitimate reason why the Gospel accounts have to be excluded as evidence. I'll keep whining and throwing a tantrum and making a fuss -- Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! -- until you finally give a real reason why these documents -- and ONLY these documents -- are disqualified as sources for what happened in the 1st century.

You're citing someone who said Josephus has to be disqualified as a legitimate source because he relied on an earlier source. Your reasoning ends up relying on the Chinese Whispers game fallacy which would rule out many or most of our standard sources for history.
 
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Isn't it an "absurdity" to disqualify Josephus as a legitimate source for history?

Not disqualified as a legitimate source of history, just as an authority on the nature of Jesus;

Quote;
Many Christian apologists cite Josephus to attempt to argue that even the "pagan"/Jewish/etc. Josephus acknowledged Jesus as a savior/miracleworker/etc., and that one should therefore believe in Jesus' divinity. However, citing Josephus as a source on Jesus argument has numerous flaws. For some reason these facts almost always come as a surprise to Christians who cite him. It's almost as if they just look up quotes without any understanding of what constitutes valid sources for determining historical events. As a matter of fact, the only writings of Josephus with reference to Jesus had little to do with his alleged divinity. In those writings that do mention Jesus, Josephus seemed to treat him as a human philosopher with a sizable audience, like just about, every, other prophet responsible for the founding of a religion. Not being a Christian himself, which, at the time, was a mystical branch of Judaism, it would have been unlikely that Josephus would have even considered the actual Jesus of being divine.''


Is the Testimonium Flavianum authentic? There are several reasons to think not some of which have been pointed out since the 1600s:[4]

Scholarly consensus: Most scholars admit that at least some parts, if not all, of this paragraph cannot be authentic,[5][6] and some are convinced that the entire paragraph is an interpolation inserted by Christians at a later time.[7][8][9][10] Even Christian scholars consider the paragraph to be an overenthusiastic forgery,[11][12][13] and even the Catholic Encyclopedia concurs.[14] Finally, everyone who is saying some part of "Testimonium Flavianum" is genuine is ignoring examinations younger then 10 years old and in some cases using data from 50 years ago.[15]''
 
But we have similar multiple independent sources that corroborate the Jesus miracle events. Just because Luke and Matthew rely on Mark does not mean they are not independent sources. Josephus also relied on Philo for some of his facts, but this does not disqualify him as a separate independent source.

Are you saying that these are independent eyewitness accounts of Jesus performing miracles...but of course not.

So what?!!!!

99% of the historical events we believe in (from before 1000 AD) are from

NON-eyewitness accounts.

These sources for our historical record are from NON-eyewitnesses.

How many times does this have to be repeated to you? These non-eyewitness accounts are our independent sources for most of the historical record. We believe them. YOU believe them, despite that they are NON-eyewitness accounts.

Hence they are not multiple independent accounts of the events being described.

Yes they are 4 (5) sources we have for the events. Independent just as surely as Josephus and many other historians are independent sources. Again, I-II Chronicles relies heavily on earlier documents, like I-II Kings etc., and yet it is a separate independent source for the events.

How many times do you have to be told this? There is nothing wrong with a source which quotes from an earlier source, or relies on the earlier source. That later source is still a separate independent source, and you can take into account that it relies on an earlier source, but that does not change the fact that it is a separate independent source. We rely on many such sources for our historical record.


These are various writers repeating things that they had heard or read.

OF COURSE, that's what ALL the ancient historians did. How else did they get their information if not by reading it or hearing it from somewhere?

There are a tiny few exceptions to this, like Thucydides and Caesar writing about the wars they experienced. But even they also relied on much which they did not witness directly, hearing or reading of it from others.

The vast majority of our historical record comes from sources who had no direct contact with the events but relied on what they read or heard from others.
The vast majority of our historical record [from 1000+ years ago] comes from sources who had no direct contact with the events but relied on what they read or heard from others.

The vast majority of our historical record isn't attempting to establish the events in question as direct proof of divine intervention.

Yes it is, or is attempting something similar, propagandizing in one way or another, including to prove divine intervention, or divine origin or superiority of this or that race or nation or dynasty, or divine favor, or to promote the author's personal status, or the status of a chosen hero, to promote a political or philosophical or religious agenda, etc.

The motivation of the writers -- what they're "attempting to establish" in their accounts -- does not nullify the credibility of the reported events. Much of it is propaganda that is biased politically and religiously, and yet it's what we depend on for the historical events.

Telling the unembellished factual truth was seldom the main purpose of most of the writings. If you can name one or two who had such an untarnished motive, they are the rare exception.

We can still believe the accounts, separating the fact from the propaganda, using all the writings as reliable sources for the events. There are no accounts which can be rejected simply because of ulterior/dishonest motives mixed in with the honest ones. The Gospel accounts cannot be singled out as the only ones to be rejected, of all the millions of documents, due to tainted motivation of the writers.


Are our accounts of, say, Sargon of Akkad second-hand? Sure. But historians generally aren't trying to back up the claim that Sargon was the offspring of a supreme being.

Whatever they're backing up or not backing up, there's nothing about the motivation of the writers which undermines the credibility of the reported events, except that normal skepticism is appropriate to ALL the writings, and the bias factor has to be considered.

That miracle events are reported does not automatically render the document unhistorical. What it means is that extra sources are needed, near the time in question and not dated centuries later than the reported events. This standard is higher than for normal events, which require less corroboration.


It is quite a leap from "historical figure existed" to "historical figure existed, and is therefore a god."

But that's not the "leap" here. If there's a leap, it's "historical figure did miracle (superhuman) acts" and therefore "had some kind of superhuman power source." The "historical figure" didn't just exist, but reportedly did those acts, and if there are multiple sources saying this, then there's credible evidence in this case which virtually always is lacking with miracle claims.

Even if the writers believed the historical figure was "a god" and presented the "events in question as direct proof of divine intervention," you don't know if they present those events in order to prove the "divine intervention" or if they claim the "divine intervention" because they believe those events really happened. If the latter, it's a legitimate report of what they believed was historical fact, regardless of their interpretation of it.

The credibility is not undermined unless the writers invented the miracle events in order to promote their "divine intervention" belief. But what's more likely is that they believed the events really happened, so they reported them legitimately, as historical, even if their interpretation of it as "divine intervention" is dubious, and even if they're mistaken because the events did not really happen.

We don't know if the writers are mistaken, because it's not known for sure if the events happened; but if the writers of the documents believed the events happened, then it's evidence that the events happened. (No? their belief that it happened is NOT evidence? -- Well then there's no evidence for ANY of the history, i.e., virtually NO EVIDENCE for any of the ancient history events -- which is your best bet for proving that the Gospels are unreliable as evidence for those events. I.e., just be done with ALL the historical events, by throwing out ALL the evidence from the documents (because the writers were biased, or their belief that something happened is not evidence that it happened.))

I can't believe you are still going with this line of bullshit.

1. Just because someone believes something, doesn't mean their belief is true, or that their belief should be considered as evidence to support their belief. If I believe I can fly from LAX to JFK simply by flapping my arms, it doesn't qualify as evidence that I can fly from LAX to JFK just by flapping my arms. You wouldn't believe that I could fly from LAX to JFK by flapping my arms even if you believed that I believed the story myself.

2. Just because someone wrote a story, doesn't mean its true, even if several other people copied the story and regurgitated it as their own. If I were to post a message on Facebook claiming I flew from LAX to JFK by flapping my arms, and 20 people either quoted my post or posted an unattributed claim similar to mine, it wouldn't imply I flew from LAX to JFK by flapping my arms, or that the story has any credible basis. You would not believe that I had flown from LAX to JFK by flapping my arms even if you read a hundred posts on Facebook repeating my claim.

3. Dead people don't rise up from the grave and fly off into space under their own power. People don't walk on water. People don't get healed of cancer just because someone prayed for them or touched their forehead. The Bible is full of extraordinary claims, claims that defy the laws of our universe. You would not believe these claims if you had not indoctrinated yourself into believing the Christian mindset, just as you don't believe that Brahma created the universe or that Hanuman was a flying monkey god. Or that I could fly from California to New York by flapping my arms.

4. Historians do not routinely consider supernatural claims to be credible, as you keep implying, just because someone wrote a story about it and a few people regurgitated the story later. In fact, I am not aware of historians considering ANY supernatural claims to be credible. None. Do you?

5. There is a substantial difference between the credibility of sources that describe natural historical events, and those that describe supernatural events. There are very good reasons to believe that Julius Caesar invaded Gaul, an act that did not require the laws of the universe to be broken, based on various historical records. There is no good reason that an adult, literate, presumably educated and sane human being should compare the stories of Caesar's invasion of Gaul to stories of dead people turning into zombies and flying off into space. And state that the stories are comparable and equally credible. None. So why do you keep repeating this untruth?

I know that you have been told all of this before, and that you will ignore everything in this post, and continue to pretend that your arguments make sense. Religion can severely fuck up people's minds, and with every post of these forums you keep reinforcing this fact. Keep going friend. :)
 
1 rep lumpen , Enormous effort and research in your walls of text :)

So does that include the part where Lumpy detaches Jesus' association from the Lord, Father, Yahweh? What effort and research has he done to support that within those walls of BS? I haven't noticed any....
 
Ive taken lots of notes ,which is quite useful. I think this is Lumpys calling. (for people like me especially, hence name)
 
Ive taken lots of notes ,which is quite useful. I think this is Lumpys calling. (for people like me especially, hence name)
Then it would be better for you if he hit the high points here and provided you with links.

Hard to imagine this is a "calling." God can't be overly impressed by the wall of text approach, nor the effort to limit the actual gospels to healing miracles.
 
Ive taken lots of notes ,which is quite useful. I think this is Lumpys calling. (for people like me especially, hence name)

Shouldn't learning be impartial and objective? If you only consider one side of an argument and only information relating to that side and that point of view/belief it is no longer a matter of learning, instead, it becomes confirmation bias.
 
Ive taken lots of notes ,which is quite useful. I think this is Lumpys calling. (for people like me especially, hence name)

Obviously you are free to spend the hours to read Lumpy's half baked shit if you like. But he is factually flat out wrong far far more than he ever hits it right; and that is regarding history and Biblical facts. Never mind that he essentially argues from a strange deist POV. If you are going to spend that much time taking notes/reading, I'd recommend a good Christian book on Christian history. Something like this is a pretty readable book and well done. Roughly the first third of the book covers the Jesus times to the Bible formation. The rest goes into later history. Paul Johnson is something of a light RC.

https://www.amazon.com/History-Christianity-Paul-Johnson/dp/0684815036
 
Some miracle claims (e.g., the Jesus miracle acts in the Gospels) are more credible than others.

How much extra evidence is necessary? How do we know when a miracle claim becomes credible?

That actually is an interesting question. But it's a hypothetical question.

I should have worded it: "How does one decide when a miracle claim becomes credible?" The answer is not the same for everyone. As the evidence for a claim increases, the claim becomes more credible, but there's no agreed threshold volume of evidence at which point it becomes credible for everyone. Each person has a different standard for how much evidence is required -- for all claims, not just for miracle claims.

There is evidence for the Jesus miracle acts in the Gospels. One could reason that this evidence is not enough, depending on how high your standard is, but it makes no sense to deny that this evidence exists. There is more evidence for the miracles of Jesus than there is for a vast amount of beliefs people have about unusual events. Also more than for much of our normal historical facts, some of which are based on limited evidence, like only one source, compared to 4 (5) sources for the miracle acts of Jesus.


Because no one's ever produced enough evidence for professional historians to consider a miracle to be an historical event.

Which "professional historians"? There are many events considered "historical" by this or that professional historian which were "miracle" events, or at least believed by someone to be miracle events.

So, probably someone has produced enough, depending on which "professional historians" you arbitrarily choose to make the ruling. There's very little that 100% of them would rule the same way on. You can pack the supreme court of "professional historians" with whoever will rule the way you want.

We need "professional historians," but not as a College of Cardinals to issue rulings about miracle claims. Their realistic function is to supply us with millions (billions) of historical facts, accessible to us, which we can use to directly address the large questions and find the truth -- i.e., using those millions/billions of established facts to do our own thinking to determine the truth, rather than the historians doing the thinking for us, like Ayatollahs or priests with power to bind and to loose.

And those established historical facts -- the undisputed ones -- are where the evidence is derived for the miracle acts of Jesus. It's this historical record -- those facts from the "professional historians" -- which provides the evidence which Christ belief is based on, i.e., the evidence for the miracle acts of Jesus as historical events which really happened and are essential to Christ belief, establishing this singular event in history in written documents of the time, like mainline historical events are established as fact, and unlike ancient miracle claims generally, for which there is little or no evidence or written record, and which can be explained as fictional.

It's reasonable to conclude that miracle events have happened in history -- but also that they have not. Either is a reasonable conclusion. This is not determined for us by "professional historians" charged with making such decisions for society. One can reasonably believe either way.

It's possible that some miracle events have happened, and if they did, it does not contradict the findings of historians or scientists or other experts. There's historical evidence that the mad monk Rasputin healed the Czar's son who had a blood disease, whatever the explanation, or whether it was a "miracle" -- this healing event probably did happen.


"God" has to do more than just BE a "god" -- he (she) has to DO something.

No one is presented in history as an actual god, as a son or daughter of actual gods, . . .

You mean "presented" by historians? But it's not their function to "present" anyone as being OR NOT BEING a god.

Many educated persons "presented" Caesar Augustus as a god, or son of a god, and perhaps they were wrong. But even if they were right, or even if an official historian said he was a god, that doesn't mean he did any miracles, which is a different and more important question. Who cares if he was a "god" if he couldn't do any more than a normal human could do?

Whether someone did a miracle act, like resurrecting from the dead, or healing lepers etc., is more important than whether he was a "god" (or an "avatar" or "messiah" or "Brahma" or "Kwisatz Haderach" etc.). Even if there were some "gods" running around here and there, what good were they if they had no special power?

. . . or even someone who met one or more gods on the road.

On the road, at the beach, wherever they were, or whoever they met -- even if they had a beer together -- those "gods" don't matter unless they do something important, like demonstrating superhuman power.

What is "presented in history" are the miracle acts of Jesus, as actual events, at a particular time and place (or times and places), and reported in 4 separate sources (5 for the Resurrection).

Identifying superhuman acts which were done has more significance than claims of a "god" or son or daughter of a "god" or "gods" being encountered, even if one was mesmerized or felt vibes from the encounter. To be anything of consequence, the "god" has to do something more than just sit there being encountered by someone, or smiling at them or being chanted at by them.

So the "miracles" question has to be about what acts were performed -- what happened? -- not whether someone was a "god" or son or daughter of a "god" etc. Being something doesn't matter -- even being a "god" -- if this god has no special power to DO something.


Not without qualifiers like "the story is told" or "the people believed" or "his tomb claims."

The "qualifiers":

Did the writers themselves believe the miracle claims were true?

It's not correct to say that "professional historians" never believe the miracle claims they report. In some cases they did believe the claims -- maybe very few. Often, but not always, there were the "qualifiers" showing they doubted the claims.

Do these qualifiers matter? Did the writer himself believe the claims being made? We need to consider this in connection with miracle claims -- but, again, not claims whether someone was a "god," but rather, claims of a miracle EVENT, or miracle ACT which reportedly happened.

This will require more extensive Walls of Text. Or we could just dismiss the point about "qualifiers" as worthless (and poorly expressed) and not deserving the Wall of Text response. Let's take a vote: those in favor of the Wall of Text rather than dismissing the "Not without qualifiers" as nutball gibberish, say Ay; those opposed because it's nutball gibberish, say No. The Ayes have it.

There are many examples of such qualifiers.

E.g., the Roman hero Romulus: there was a claim that something miraculous happened with the disappearance of Romulus, whose dead body was not found. The writers about this say there was a claim that "the gods" took Romulus. But note: None of them says Romulus in fact was taken by the gods. They only report this claim which was made. And they imply that the Nobles who were present had a motive to murder Romulus and lie about it, claiming he had been taken by the gods.

So it's typical of the writers to report such claims which they disbelieve. In such cases we have good reason to doubt the miracle claims being reported, which the writers probably disbelieved, and which they reported as claims someone made, but not as events which really happened.

But one miracle claim reported by "professional historians" and apparently believed by them was the reported miracle of Vespasian, which both Tacitus and Suetonius report as fact, without any "qualifiers" to show their skepticism. So it's not true that "historians" always use the qualifiers in reporting "miracle" events.


(this Wall of Text to be continued)
 
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It took you over a year to not really answer your own question?

In a willful but meaningless WallOfText?
 
Some miracle claims (the Jesus miracle acts in the Gospels) are more credible than others.

(continued from previous Wall of Text)


The "historians"/writers sometimes believed miracle claims, without the "qualifiers" (in a few cases).


Not without qualifiers like "the story is told" or "the people believed" or "his tomb claims."

The miracle acts of Jesus are reported in the Gospels as real events which happened, and not with the qualifiers saying this was only a claim someone made. This adds to the credibility.

The Jesus miracle acts were events which reportedly happened 40-70 years earlier than the written account(s) we have. There are almost no other cases in the ancient literature of superhuman miracle acts reported less than 100 years later than the alleged events.

So this isn't mainly about stories of the ancient pagan gods, about Achilles being aided by Apollo, or about Zeus rising up against Cronos, or about Asclepius raising someone from the dead, and other hero myths. Those were ancient legends repeated by poets and other writers who often presented them as actual events without needing to say "the story is told" or "the people believed," etc. Maybe the writers believed the stories were literally true -- or, maybe it was just pious to tell them as true stories, in respect for tradition. Whatever the explanation, there was often no qualifier.

The reported miracle acts of Jesus in the Gospels cannot be placed in the above ancient myth category (even if you consider them "myth"), but were claims of RECENT events, only a few decades earlier than the written accounts, and so were not about the ancient gods. Almost all such recent stories appear with qualifiers "the story is told" or "people believe," etc., or especially "he claimed he could . . ." etc., showing that the writer doubts the truth of it, even suggesting it's a hoax.

R. Carrier's "Kooks and Quacks" ( https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/kooks.html ) gives examples where the writer did not believe the miracle claims:

Josephus tells us that the region was filled with 'cheats and deceivers claiming divine inspiration' . . . entrancing the masses and leading them like sheep, usually to their doom.

One "trickster" was "The Egyptian" claiming special powers:

. . . he would show them from hence, how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down; and he promised that . . . -- Jewish Antiquities, 20.170

So Josephus reports only this promise of a miracle, not any actual miracle event, which would allow the rebels to invade the city, like Joshua at Jericho. But the real outcome was failure and subsequent slaughter of the rebels by the Romans. Obviously Josephus thought this "Egyptian" was a charlatan only, with no power as he claimed to have.

Another charlatan was Jonathan who attracted a gang of rebels:

. . . a mob of the poor and needy, promising to show them many signs and portents (Jewish War, 7.437-8). Again, it took military intervention to disband the movement.

And no "signs and portents" really happened, according to Josephus, but only promises from the charlatan.


Josephus also names a certain Theudas, another "trickster" who gathered an impressive following in Cyrene around 46 A.D., claiming he was a prophet and could part the river Jordan (Jewish Antiquities, 20.97).

Again, only claims by the charlatan, pretending they would relive some of the ancient battle scene miracles of Joshua. But no real miracle event.

But there are a few cases of a "miracle" event which Josephus did believe and reported as fact without the "qualifiers" -- so the "historian" sometimes (rarely) did believe the miracle claim he reported.


Miracles were also a dime a dozen . . .

No they weren't -- let's get it right. Only reported claims of miracles were "a dime a dozen," not miracles, and also very few believers in such claims. Just because a few wackos joined them doesn't mean there was "dime a dozen" anything: some of the joiners did not believe the miracle claims of the charlatan, while those who did believe are not representative of the general population, who mostly scoffed at such claims.

. . . were also a dime a dozen in this era. The biographer . . .

Which "era"?

Excluding the Jesus miracles in the Gospels, the pattern of miracles appearing in this "era" is as follows:

Prior to 100 AD the miracle claims were not "a dime a dozen" but were very few, virtually zero, unless you go way back several centuries, and we see an increase in them going backward. But going forward from 300 to 200 to 100 BC they become fewer and fewer. So there's virtually NO miracle claims after 100 BC and into the first century AD, up to about 100 (90) AD. And then suddenly, like an explosion they break out everywhere, and increase on into the Middle Ages.

So in the "era" of Jesus and the early Christ cults there are NO miracle claims, up to about 100 AD. We see a slight hint of them in Josephus, but the real beginning of the "dime a dozen" miracles are those of the Jesus disciples in the Book of Acts, 90-100 AD, and the reference to Simon Magus who did "magic" to impress people.

But the "era" of Jesus and the Gospels and the Paul epistles was an "era" of virtually NO MIRACLES (outside the Gospel accounts). You can search for them, but they're not there in any literature -- Greek or Roman or Jewish. (Even the Asclepius miracle claims don't really break this pattern, though these are more difficult to explain. But since they are virtually absent from 100 BC to 100 AD, they end up following the general pattern of miracle claims from this "era." This cult is dealt with in a later Wall of Text.)

In some writings there are repeats of earlier ancient legends, e.g., Ovid, and maybe some of these are modified from the earlier versions. All the pagan myths go back to Homer and earlier, some far back into prehistory. But nothing in the "era" of Jesus and the Gospel accounts, when new miracle stories had stopped appearing.

The alleged miracles of Simon Magus or Hanina Ben Dosa or other 1st century figures are absent from the literature until way past 100 AD. Everything in Plutarch and others, including the Vespasian miracle story in Tacitus/Suetonius, is later than 100 AD. For anything earlier, you have to go back to 600 BC to the Elijah/Elisha stories.

So first there's the "era" before about 500 BC, when some early miracle mythologies appeared through the centuries, then there's the "era" of these dying out, 300-200 BC, and then there's the "era" of NO miracle stories when Rome conquered most of the Mediterranean world, up to about 100 AD, followed by the "era" after 100 AD, where the miracle stories suddenly appeared and increased way beyond anything previously.

In the writings only reports of frauds or hoaxes were common. Note that there are extremely few writers who really believe any miracle claims or say such events really happened. Unlike the Gospel accounts, which say the miracle acts of Jesus happened as real events. The Gospels are conspicuous in this regard, not typical.

. . . this era. The biographer Plutarch, a contemporary of Josephus, engages in a lengthy digression to prove that a statue of Tyche did not really speak in the early Republic (Life of Coriolanus 37.3). He claims it must have been a hallucination inspired by the deep religious faith of the onlookers, since there were, he says, too many reliable witnesses to dismiss the story as an invention (38.1-3). He even digresses further to explain why other miracles such as weeping or bleeding--even moaning--statues could be explained as natural phenomena, showing a modest but refreshing degree of skeptical reasoning that would make the Amazing Randi proud.

I.e., reports of frauds. But nothing from any writers saying the miracle events really happened. You see the need to distinguish here: There were NOT miracles happening everywhere a-dime-a-dozen, NO! not even claims, except ones believed by only a tiny band of ignorant misfits. There were frauds, and false claims of such things -- the writers told us they were fraudulent. And the followers of these were few, not many, except in the case of worshiping an ancient deity, where many did believe the ancient miracle claims, not claims of recent miracle events, like the charlatans mentioned by Josephus.


Likewise, statues with healing powers were common attractions for sick people of this era. Lucian mentions the famous healing powers of a statue of Polydamas, an athlete, at Olympia, as well as the statue of Theagenes at Thasos (Council of the Gods 12).

But in both cases Lucian mentions the claims as fraudulent, stating his DISbelief in them. Lucian recounts no example of a healing miracle taking place, but only claims or alleged healings caused by these statues, and nothing to show a widespread belief in these claims.

Also, we need to note the difference between reports of RECENT miracle claims vs. the invoking of ANCIENT legends. E.g., mentions by Pausanias of superstitious claims are from centuries earlier than Pausanias wrote of them:

Both are again mentioned by Pausanias, in his "tour guide" of the Roman world (6.5.4-9, 11.2-9).

Possibly Pausanias is ambiguous here about branding these as fraudulent claims. But that's because the miracle claims date far back to 600 years earlier rather than to anything recent.

So, importantly, the writers sometimes did believe or affirm ancient miracle claims, or at least refrained from denouncing them as fraudulent. For the ancient legends, many of the writers -- poets and historians and others -- seemed to give credence to the superstitious beliefs, or miracles like instant healings at statues, etc. But not to miracle claims of their own time or claims of recent miracles. The ancient myths are sometimes given a pass, or granted credibility, without the derision typically shown by the writers toward the charlatans of their own time.

The pattern is: Some ancient miracle claims are reported as if they were real events which had happened -- but not CURRENT miracle claims, or claims of recent miracle-workers, which are only reported as false claims of a charlatan. So there was a respect or approval shown toward some of the ancient legends, as if they were true, but not to claims of a contemporary/recent miracle event. (The Vespasian miracle story might be an exception to this rule, but in this case the reported miracle was attached to an ancient deity. Where the miracle claims are humored by the writers, or given a pass, it's because of their attachment to an ancient deity which is invoked as the source for the miracle power.)

There are virtually no writers who give credence to any recent miracle claims. Not Lucian or Pausanias or Plutarch. Rather, all the contemporary or recent claims of miracles are rejected by them.


Lucian also mentions the curative powers of the statue of a certain General Pellichos (Philopseudes 18-20).

But he mainly ridicules the tradition that this statue had healing powers.

If the superstitious belief in question is from several centuries earlier than the writer, as in this case, then there is not the same ridicule. If Lucian is less emphatic in condemning this tradition, it's because the legend dates to 400-500 years earlier, having no connection to any claims during his own time (2nd century AD). But he does ridicule ALL the claims of statues having any power to heal. And he especially ridiculed the recent false prophet Alexander who created his own perverse version of Asclepius worship. So the norm was to condemn recent charlatans concocting their own miracle claims, but little or no condemnation of the ancient legends.


And Athenagoras, in his Legatio pro Christianis, polemicizes against the commonplace belief in the healing powers of statues, mentioning, in addition to the statue of a certain Neryllinus, the statues of Proteus and Alexander . . .

Of course this is the Christian polemic against the pagan healing myths, but the NON-Christian writers also ridicule these claims of healing powers attributed to pagan statues.

There are virtually no writings giving any credence to these miracle claims, such as to narrate them as real events which happened (as the Jesus miracles are narrated in the Gospels).

The references to the miracle claims, such as healing statues, or weeping statues, etc., are ones which only ridicule the claims. Any exception is only the kind which refers to ancient legends, centuries earlier, which gain some kind of status over the centuries and become respected and treated as though they were real historical events, accepted as literally true, and not subjected to skepticism.

Virtually no writers report anything favorable or give credibility to the claims of miracle power, and the belief in such claims was very limited, not widespread. If there had been any widespread acceptance of these claims, we would surely have some written account narrating some of their miracle acts and presenting these as real events which happened. This rejection of the claims by the writers is part of the evidence for disbelieving most miracle claims (i.e., claims of recent miracle events), as distinguished from accounts like the Gospels where the writers describe the (recent) events as real.

But this doesn't mean there are ZERO examples of the writers believing miracle claims. The Vespasian case is one presented as fact rather than ridiculed by the writers, giving credence to such a miracle claim, like the Gospel accounts reporting the Jesus miracle acts. I.e., the source, the writer (an educated person), actually believes the miracle claims being made.



The Vespasian miracle story

The Emperor Vespasian is said to have done a miracle cure for two afflicted victims. And since there are two sources, only 40-50 years later than the event, it has to be considered seriously, unlike most miracle claims for which there is usually no source close to the time of the event.


Suetonius version

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:abo:phi,1348,020:7 A poor man who was blind, and another who was lame, came both together before him, when he was seated on the tribunal, imploring him to heal them, and saying that they were admonished in a dream by the god Serapis to seek his aid, who assured them that he would restore sight to the one by anointing his eyes with his spittle, and give strength to the leg of the other, if he vouchsafed but to touch it with his heel. At first he could scarcely believe that the thing would any how succeed, and therefore hesitated to venture on making the experiment. At length, however, by the advice of his friends, he made the attempt publicly, in the presence of the assembled multitudes, and it was crowned with success in both cases.

That last sentence is a bit ambiguous, but we have to take it at face value as an endorsement by Suetonius, apparently believing the story.


Tacitus version

http://historum.com/ancient-history/57439-miracles-vespasian.html One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. This he did by the advice of the God Serapis, whom this nation, devoted as it is to many superstitions, worships more than any other divinity. He begged Vespasian that he would deign to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle. Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that the limb might feet the print of a Caesar's foot. At first Vespasian ridiculed and repulsed them.

They persisted; and he, though on the one hand he feared the scandal of a fruitless attempt, yet, on the other, was induced by the entreaties of the men and by the language of his flatterers to hope for success. At last he ordered that the opinion of physicians should be taken, as to whether such blindness and infirmity were within the reach of human skill.

They discussed the matter from different points of view. 'In the one case,' they said, 'the faculty of sight was not wholly destroyed, and might return, if the obstacles were removed; in the other case, the limb, which had fallen into a diseased condition, might be restored, if a healing influence were applied; such, perhaps, might be the pleasure of the Gods, and the Emperor might be chosen to be the minister of the divine will; at any rate, all the glory of a successful remedy would be Caesar's, while the ridicule of failure would fall on the sufferers.'

And so Vespasian, supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was required. The hand was instantly restored to its use, and the light of day again shone upon the blind. Persons actually present attest both facts, even now when nothing is to be gained by falsehood."

So is this "the exception which makes the rule"? I.e., the rule that there are no miracle claims for which we have credible evidence, outside the Jesus miracle acts in the Gospels? and claims which were believed by the writers who are our sources for the claims?

Though this story meets a higher standard for evidence, we can reason that no real miracle took place (though there was a real event), and we can easily explain how this likely fiction healing story of Vespasian got started, and how the Jesus miracles cannot be similarly explained, by comparison:

• Vespasian was a famous widely-popular hero figure at the time, a celebrity with political and military power, known to millions throughout the Empire. This easily explains the legend-building which took place and might have produced this story even during Vespasian's lifetime.

• His reputed miracle act was done in the name of the ancient deity, Serapis, widely revered throughout the Empire, fitting the common pattern among miracle healing claims, which always invoke an ancient healing god as the Divine Source for the miracle power. Both the above accounts name Serapis as the revered healing deity, having a similar reputation to that of Asclepius, in whose name miracle cures were reported. This helps explain the popular acceptance of the story, of a supposed healing performed according to the ancient rites.

• No other miracle acts are attributed to Vespasian. So he was a one-time reputed miracle-worker, with no such reported power except on this one occasion.

• There are only 2 sources for this reputed miracle -- which is better than only one. But the Jesus miracles are attested to in 4 sources from the time (the Resurrection in 5 sources).

• This Vespasian story appears in the record after 100 AD, at a time when there was a sudden explosion of miracle stories, unprecedented, totally out of character to anything earlier. So it fits into a recognizable pattern beginning at this point, unlike anything before 100 (90) AD, where we see a jarring increase in miracle stories. During this period (before 90 AD) there were NO miracle stories, or reports of miracle healing acts, other than those of Jesus in the Gospels.

If there were several other miracle stories like this one, believed by the writers reporting them, and especially appearing earlier, like BEFORE 50 AD, then the case could be made that the Jesus miracle stories, appearing in the record from about 50-90 AD, are part of the general pattern of ancient miracle stories which some writers believed, probably continuing a superstitious trend of earlier times. But there is no such pattern of miracle claims in the written record.

Rather, this Vespasian case is almost the ONLY case of a miracle report which is believed by the writers or sources we have. And there's virtually nothing prior to 100 AD. -- I.e., the two written accounts of this appear after 100 AD, while the actual event -- whatever really happened -- would have taken place about 60-70 AD.

Also, Josephus is in this period approaching the explosion of new miracle claims beginning about 100 AD. He reports -- without the "qualifiers" -- battlefield visions or portents, and one exorcism event.


(this Wall of Text to be continued)
 
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The only credible miracle claim - if there are any - is one that has verifiable evidence to support the claim. Whatever it happens to say in the holy books is not evidence that supports their claims of miracles and wonders.
 
How much extra evidence is necessary? How do we know when a miracle claim becomes credible? .
That actually is an interesting question.
But it's a hypothetical question.
Because no one's ever produced enough evidence for professional historians to consider a miracle to be an historical event....

I should have worded it: "How does one decide when a miracle claim becomes credible?" The answer is not the same for everyone. As the evidence for a claim increases, the claim becomes more credible, but there's no agreed threshold volume of evidence at which point it becomes credible for everyone


Yep. And the threshold is the point at which the miracle claim is more plausible than its negation.
The claim that 'it' never happened, is itself a historical claim in the opposite direction.
And to say that a miracle, some miracles, ALL miracles, never happened despite the weight and volume of unbiased testimony to the contrary is really hard to believe - especially since that negation claim comes from people with a deliberate skeptical bias who are living thousands of years remote from the event.

...oh yeah, and since God exists, there's nothing all that extraordinary about someone reporting that they witnessed something supernatural. (Water turning into wine, leprosy being cured, multiplication of loaves/fishes.)
 
Testimonials can be unreliable. Especially when it comes to faith, confirmation bias, willingness to believe, interpreting events in a way that reinforces one's beliefs.
 
I should have worded it: "How does one decide when a miracle claim becomes credible?" The answer is not the same for everyone. As the evidence for a claim increases, the claim becomes more credible, but there's no agreed threshold volume of evidence at which point it becomes credible for everyone


Yep. And the threshold is the point at which the miracle claim is more plausible than its negation.
The claim that 'it' never happened, is itself a historical claim in the opposite direction.
And to say that a miracle, some miracles, ALL miracles, never happened despite the weight and volume of unbiased testimony to the contrary is really hard to believe - especially since that negation claim comes from people with a deliberate skeptical bias who are living thousands of years remote from the event.
Therefore, we should believe Joseph Smith and all become good Mormons (or whatever they want to now be called).

Oh, and on that "weight and volume of unbiased testimony"...ROTFLMAO. Most of that testimony is anonymous...but sure...unbiased.


...oh yeah, and since God exists, there's nothing all that extraordinary about someone reporting that they witnessed something supernatural. (Water turning into wine, leprosy being cured, multiplication of loaves/fishes.)
RE the underlined: I think you have pushed your cart on to the road way, and the horse is still in the barn...
 
And to say that a miracle, some miracles, ALL miracles, never happened despite the weight and volume of unbiased testimony to the contrary is really hard to believe - especially since that negation claim comes from people with a deliberate skeptical bias who are living thousands of years remote from the event.

...oh yeah, and since God exists, there's nothing all that extraordinary about someone reporting that they witnessed something supernatural. (Water turning into wine, leprosy being cured, multiplication of loaves/fishes.)

So how do you explain why obvious miracles all seem "thousands of years remote" from our day? Has God gotten shy, or maybe less powerful?

The "deliberate skeptical bias" you speak of would be far less common if we saw the occasional mountain moved by prayer, or re-grown amputated limb, or any of the flashy miracles recounted in your holy book- or any other. Why does reality have a skeptical bias, hmm?
 
So how do you explain why obvious miracles all seem "thousands of years remote" from our day?
Distance does seem to improve the miracle. Raises the threshold of the miracality, as it were.

Six thousand years ago, the entire magilla was created.

Four thousand years ago, God was reduced to curses that harmed Egypt, but fell short of just making Egyptians disappear.
Two thousand years ago, water got changed into wine. Some dead people got up again.

Six years ago, SelfMutation declared that cancer remission was a miracle. Healing, limited to only certain kinds of cancer, and not distributed with any apparent correlation to belief/nonbelief or particular flavors of belief. God's choice of healing appears indistinguishable from random chance...

Two days ago, Suzy Sunshine in my office declared it a miracle that she got here an hour late and found parking RIGHT OUT IN FRONT! Three rows closer to the gate than she usually parks! God didn't help her mother's blindness, but MADE SURE that Suzy made a Start Of Work meeting on time...
 
If the point about miracles is it's all ancient news, then I get the point.

It's wasted time to support the notion that God exists with the "testimony" in old books.
 
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