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A simple explanation of free will.

Of course. But we do not need libertarian free will.
Nor do we need illusory will.
? Doesnt understand. I Assume that you meant "neither do we need libertarian free will" in which you are correct.


But in short: either your decisions are rational or random.
Nonsense. Yesterday I bought a chicken dinner, and then forgot to eat it. That's not rational in any useful sense, but nor was it random.
Either there was a glitch that made you forget, which i would call random, or your subconcious made you forget it because deep down you believed that you shouldnt eat chicken. Etc

If they are rational they are not free.
Why not?
If it is rational then some rational process has been used to cone the decision. I.e. There is causal reasons for the decision.

Let's take an example. I'm reading a book. A TV program comes on. I like the TV program, I like the book. I could choose to read, or to watch the TV. Both of these appear to be entirely rational decisions. Why can't they be 'free', as per LFW?

You select the occupation that feels best. What is free in that?
 
Nor do we need illusory will.
? Doesnt understand. I Assume that you meant..
Nope, meant what I said. You proposed that we have a will that is illusory. We don't need an illusory will. I'm rejecting your illusory will on the same grounds that you've stated for rejecting LFW. Are those grounds convincing?


We both agree that there is something that appears to be will, right? I'm proposing that it is, at least sometimes, causally effective. You're proposing that we have a whole slew of mechanisms to fool our illusory will into thinking it's making decisions when in fact it we have a second, secret unconscious mechanism that makes decisions instead, while coordinating with the illusory will to keep the two in synch. Which of us is proposing an additional mechanism here?

[
But in short: either your decisions are rational or random.
Nonsense. Yesterday I bought a chicken dinner, and then forgot to eat it. That's not rational in any useful sense, but nor was it random.
Either there was a glitch that made you forget, which i would call random, or your subconcious made you forget it because deep down you believed that you shouldnt eat chicken. Etc

Still not rational to first decide to buy something, and then decide not to eat it. The fact is, we don't make universally rational decisions.

If they are rational they are not free.
Why not?
If it is rational then some rational process has been used to cone the decision. I.e. There is causal reasons for the decision.

...so you've now substituted 'causal' for 'rational. Still waiting for the bit where you explain why it's incompatible with LFW.

[
Let's take an example. I'm reading a book. A TV program comes on. I like the TV program, I like the book. I could choose to read, or to watch the TV. Both of these appear to be entirely rational decisions. Why can't they be 'free', as per LFW?

You select the occupation that feels best. What is free in that?

No I don't. I don't compare how each feels and then choose on that basis. And you've been busy claiming that we don't consciously decide anyway, and that our internal feelings are an illusion.

If you want to claim that such a choice can't be free, by definition, you need to explain why.
 
You're proposing that we have a whole slew of mechanisms to fool our illusory will into thinking it's making decisions when in fact it we have a second, secret unconscious mechanism that makes decisions instead,

We know that we are not aware of every step in our decision making. That is not a "second unconscious mechanism". It is the normal way the brain works: hidden low level computations delivers only high level represetations of the data. We dont hear the neuorns fire, we hear sound, we dont see the transmittor substanse emissions, we see colors and shapes. We do not usually perfom boolean algebra, the brain solves the equations for us. In this way you can say all what we experience is "illusory".
 
Does the flap of a butterfly wing need to be strong to cause a hurricane?

Let me cut to the chase; look into quantum cognition.

If a butterly causes a hurricane then anythibg causes the hurricane. Dont really believe that the mind works like that, do you?

Just read what our discussion was about.
 
Under the "Quantum Probability Introductory Chapter" of http://mypage.iu.edu/~jbusemey/quantum/Quantum Cognition Notes.htm they have,

"This chapter has two related purposes: to generate interest in a
new and fascinating approach to understanding behavioral measures
based on quantum probability principles, and to introduce
and provide a tutorial of the basic ideas in a manner that is interesting
and easy for social and behavioral scientists to understand." .

The rest goes into more detail.

Ryan, simply giving a link to a line of research that's in its infant stage, still being highly speculative, doesn't support your proposition.

You only asked for an example. There are processes in decision making that cannot be explained accurately with CM but can be with QM. This is a whole area of research that I have posted links about. I only propose that it is possible.

Obviously other researchers in this field feel the same way as I do and are not as certain as you. Unless you are a representative of the majority of researchers out there, how do expect me to trust you over their models that conflict with your certainty?

... which consequently can't be used to explain or predict human/animal thought and behaviour. You are clutching at straws.

For the 5th time, the mathematics from QM are successful at explaining cognitive processes like decision making. I already posted links for this.

But let's say that it is quantum conditions (wave collapse, expression or whatever) generate and determine the movements/motions of all macro scale objects...therefore all of your thoughts and actions: you still have absolutely no regulative control of how wavicles/particles evolve probabilistically over time. Being a puppet to quantum evolution, you have no free will, your thoughts, decisions and actions being played out on a quantum scale.
I have answered this in at least 10 posts.

**************BEING*************** QM may be different than QM. If I am the QM, then my desires, if probabilistic, might be what I freely choose. It is at least an interpretation of the relationship between QM and cognitive science.
 
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Occam's Razor, are illusions more likely than our observations? They might be, but then even science would have to be under this level of scrutiny. Furthermore, my contention is that free will might exist, not that it is most likely.

It's been discussed at length in many threads. Gazzaniga's 'Narrator function' - Delgado's brain stimulation experiments where the researcher initiated a physical action through brain stimulation, to which the subjects 'narrator function' constructed a reason for the action.

Furthermore:

"A lot of the early work in this field was on conscious decision making, but most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget. "You don't consciously decide to stop at a red light or steer around an obstacle in the road. Once we started looking at the decisions our brains make without our knowledge, we found that they almost always reach the right decision, given the information they had to work with."

''Subjects in this test performed exactly as if their brains were subconsciously gathering information before reaching a confidence threshold, which was then reported to the conscious mind as a definite, sure answer. The subjects, however, were never aware of the complex computations going on, instead they simply "realized" suddenly that the dots were moving in one direction or another. The characteristics of the underlying computation fit with Pouget's extensive earlier work that suggested the human brain is wired naturally to perform calculations of this kind.''

Yes, I have said many times in this debate that I rarely feel like I am making a conscious decision. I find it quite troubling that you posted this information after I have said so times what this article claims.

This is insanity. I have repeated myself so many times. I have overcome all objections. Unless I read something that I have not answered already, I will no longer respond.
 
You're proposing that we have a whole slew of mechanisms to fool our illusory will into thinking it's making decisions when in fact it we have a second, secret unconscious mechanism that makes decisions instead,

We know that we are not aware of every step in our decision making. That is not a "second unconscious mechanism". It is the normal way the brain works: hidden low level computations delivers only high level represetations of the data. We dont hear the neuorns fire, we hear sound, we dont see the transmittor substanse emissions, we see colors and shapes. We do not usually perfom boolean algebra, the brain solves the equations for us. In this way you can say all what we experience is "illusory".

If we're not aware of a step, then there is no illusion. If, however, you want us to be aware of thinking about something, and to be making a decision, and for that decision to be ineffective, then that is an illusion. That situation implies two parallel mechanisms. One for the (ineffective) conscious decision making, and one for actually doing things.
 
We know that we are not aware of every step in our decision making. That is not a "second unconscious mechanism". It is the normal way the brain works: hidden low level computations delivers only high level represetations of the data. We dont hear the neuorns fire, we hear sound, we dont see the transmittor substanse emissions, we see colors and shapes. We do not usually perfom boolean algebra, the brain solves the equations for us. In this way you can say all what we experience is "illusory".

If we're not aware of a step, then there is no illusion. If, however, you want us to be aware of thinking about something, and to be making a decision, and for that decision to be ineffective, then that is an illusion. That situation implies two parallel mechanisms. One for the (ineffective) conscious decision making, and one for actually doing things.
Stop it. I have never said that our brain (thus we) doesnt make decisions. What is illusionary is the "free" part. A brain i a certain state will always make the same decision on the same input (with the exception of differences due to noise)
 
If you can't explain why this is definitely not a dream like (of the mind) event, then you must accept that your more complex explanation of reality stands on the foundation of unprovable belief. Why should we believe the more complex explanation if it offers us less than the simpler explanation...a simpler explanation that most people experience every time that they know that they are making a choice?

Makes no difference to the issue of free will, or regulative control of physical laws and conditions, when in fact you cannot control the conditions and events during the course of 'your' dream...when it is the dream that has control of you.

The difference is total. If we are immersed in a totally unthinking universe then we have no reciprocal relationship with it. If the universe is the product of a mind (of which we are a sub-set) then there is clearly the possibility of reciprocal relationship. The idea that a mindless universe makes beings (by accident) that are capable of having a relationship with it is more complex than one being creating another.

If we exist within a greater mind then the world around us doesn't cause us to be, the mind that directs the world does. Obviously the mind behind the world may choose to give us a degree of free choice...a mindless world can never do that.
 
Well, it's well below the Planck length, by a few orders of magnitude. So... what about it? I don't think it would even be detectable.

Does the flap of a butterfly wing need to be strong to cause a hurricane?

Let me cut to the chase; look into quantum cognition.
Ehh, the wikipedia article starts out talking about how QED type Quantum stuff doesn't play a role in cognition. Instead, they are developing statistical models of neural activity that are similar to statistical models of quantum activity.

Doesn't mean certain additive quantum effects aren't in play. And it doesn't mean that QED style quantum effects aren't in play. It just means that they don't have an impact at the classical level (the QED ones that you keep talking about), and if the magnetic or NMR ones do, I'm not yet aware of any trustworthy research confirming that they do, unless you accept certain bits of information that were written in an allegedly very old book.
 
Does the flap of a butterfly wing need to be strong to cause a hurricane?

Let me cut to the chase; look into quantum cognition.
Ehh, the wikipedia article starts out talking about how QED type Quantum stuff doesn't play a role in cognition. Instead, they are developing statistical models of neural activity that are similar to statistical models of quantum activity.

Doesn't mean certain additive quantum effects aren't in play. And it doesn't mean that QED style quantum effects aren't in play. It just means that they don't have an impact at the classical level (the QED ones that you keep talking about), and if the magnetic or NMR ones do, I'm not yet aware of any trustworthy research confirming that they do, unless you accept certain bits of information that were written in an allegedly very old book.
You did not read it because I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Read all of the way to the end of the "Decision Making" section, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cognition . It is only about two pages of reading. Here it is,

Quantum cognition is an emerging field which applies the mathematical formalism of quantum theory to model cognitive phenomena such as information processing by the human brain, decision making, human memory, concepts and conceptual reasoning, human judgment, and perception.[1][2] [3][4] The field clearly distinguishes itself from the quantum mind as it is not reliant on the hypothesis that there is something micro-physical quantum mechanical about the brain. Quantum cognition is based on the quantum-like paradigm[5][6] or generalized quantum paradigm [7] or quantum structure paradigm [8] that information processing by complex systems such as the brain, taking into account contextual dependence of information and probabilistic reasoning, can be mathematically described in the framework of quantum information and quantum probability theory.

Quantum cognition uses the mathematical formalism of quantum theory to inspire and formalize models of cognition that aim to be an advance over models based on traditional classical probability theory. The field focuses on modeling phenomena in cognitive science that have resisted traditional techniques or where traditional models seem to have reached a barrier (e.g., human memory [9] ), and modeling preferences in decision theory that seem paradoxical from a traditional rational point of view (e.g., preference reversals [10]). Since the use of a quantum-theoretic framework is for modeling purposes, the identification of quantum structures in cognitive phenomena does not presuppose the existence of microscopic quantum processes in the human brain.

Quantum-like models of information processing ("quantum-like brain")[edit]

The brain is definitely a macroscopic physical system operating on the scales (of time, space, temperature) which differ crucially from the corresponding quantum scales. (The macroscopic quantum physical phenomena such as e.g. the Bose-Einstein condensate are also characterized by the special conditions which are definitely not fulfilled in the brain.) In particular, the brain is simply too hot to be able perform the real quantum information processing, i.e., to use the quantum carriers of information such as photons, ions, electrons. As is commonly accepted in brain science, the basic unit of information processing is a neuron. It is clear that a neuron cannot be in the superposition of two states: firing and non-firing. Hence, it cannot produce superposition playing the basic role in the quantum information processing. Superpositions of mental states are created by complex neural networks of neurons (and these are classical neural networks). Quantum cognition community states that the activity of such neural networks can produce effects which are formally described as interference (of probabilities) and entanglement. In principle, the community does not try to create the concrete models of quantum (-like) representation of information in the brain.[12]

The quantum cognition project is based on the observation that various cognitive phenomena are more adequately described by quantum information theory and quantum probability than by the corresponding classical theories, see examples below. Thus the quantum formalism is considered as an operational formalism describing nonclassical processing of probabilistic data. Recent derivations of the complete quantum formalism from simple operational principles for representation of information supports the foundations of quantum cognition. The subjective probability viewpoint on quantum probability which was developed by C. Fuchs and collaborators [13] also supports the quantum cognition approach, especially using of quantum probabilities to describe the process of decision making.

Although at the moment we cannot present the concrete neurophysiological mechanisms of creation of the quantum-like representation of information in the brain, we can present general informational considerations supporting the idea that information processing in the brain matches with quantum information and probability. Here, contextuality is the key word, see the monograph of Khrennikov [1] for detailed representation of this viewpoint. Quantum mechanics is fundamentally contextual.[14] Quantum systems do not have objective properties which can be defined independently of measurement context. (As was pointed by N. Bohr, the whole experimental arrangement must be taken into account.) Contextuality implies existence of incompatible mental variables, violation of the classical law of total probability and (constructive and destructive) interference effects. Thus the quantum cognition approach can be considered as an attempt to formalize contextuality of mental processes by using the mathematical apparatus of quantum mechanics.

Decision making[edit]

Suppose a person is given an opportunity to play two rounds of the following gamble: a coin toss will determine whether the subject wins $200 or loses $100. Suppose the subject has decided to play the first round, and does so. Some subjects are then given the result (win or lose) of the first round, while other subjects are not yet given any information about the results. The experimenter then asks whether the subject wishes to play the second round. Performing this experiment with real subjects gives the following results:

1) When subjects believe they won the first round, the majority of subjects choose to play again on the second round.

2) When subjects believe they lost the first round, the majority of subjects choose not to play again on the second round.

Given these two separate choices, according to the sure thing principle of rational decision theory, they should also play the second round even if they don’t know or think about the outcome of the first round.[15] But, experimentally, when subjects are not told the results of the first round, the majority of them decline to play a second round.[16] This finding violates the law of total probability, yet it can be explained as a quantum interference effect in a manner similar to the explanation for the results from double-slit experiment in quantum physics.[2][17]

The above deviations from classical rational expectations in agents’ decisions under uncertainty produce well known paradoxes in behavioral economics, that is, the Allais, Ellsberg and Machina paradoxes.[18][19][20] These deviations can be explained if one assumes that the overall conceptual landscape influences the subject’s choice in a neither predictable nor controllable way. A decision process is thus an intrinsically contextual process, hence it cannot be modeled in a single Kolmogorovian probability space, which justifies the employment of quantum probability models in decision theory. More explicitly, the paradoxical situations above can be represented in a unified Hilbert space formalism where human behavior under uncertainty is explained in terms of genuine quantum aspects, namely, superposition, interference, contextuality and incompatibility.[21][22][23]
.

And if you don't believe this, then read from the millions of other links from legitimate universities about quantum cognition.

And for the love of all that is good, please remember that my argument is that QM might be a part of decision making.

And then I also want an apology due to your laziness and inability to read a Wiki article, and your appreciation for finding this for your dumb ass.
 
Ehh, the wikipedia article starts out talking about how QED type Quantum stuff doesn't play a role in cognition. Instead, they are developing statistical models of neural activity that are similar to statistical models of quantum activity.

Doesn't mean certain additive quantum effects aren't in play. And it doesn't mean that QED style quantum effects aren't in play. It just means that they don't have an impact at the classical level (the QED ones that you keep talking about), and if the magnetic or NMR ones do, I'm not yet aware of any trustworthy research confirming that they do, unless you accept certain bits of information that were written in an allegedly very old book.
You did not read it because I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Read all of the way to the end of the "Decision Making" section, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cognition . It is only about two pages of reading. Here it is,
I enjoyed the third paragraph particularly (don't confuse particularly with quantumly!):

....
Since the use of a quantum-theoretic framework is for modeling purposes, the identification of quantum structures in cognitive phenomena does not presuppose the existence of microscopic quantum processes in the human brain.

Quantum-like models of information processing ("quantum-like brain")

The brain is definitely a macroscopic physical system operating on the scales (of time, space, temperature) which differ crucially from the corresponding quantum scales. (The macroscopic quantum physical phenomena such as e.g. the Bose-Einstein condensate are also characterized by the special conditions which are definitely not fulfilled in the brain.) In particular, the brain is simply too hot to be able perform the real quantum information processing, i.e., to use the quantum carriers of information such as photons, ions, electrons. As is commonly accepted in brain science, the basic unit of information processing is a neuron. It is clear that a neuron cannot be in the superposition of two states: firing and non-firing. Hence, it cannot produce superposition playing the basic role in the quantum information processing. Superpositions of mental states are created by complex neural networks of neurons (and these are classical neural networks). Quantum cognition community states that the activity of such neural networks can produce effects which are formally described as interference (of probabilities) and entanglement. In principle, the community does not try to create the concrete models of quantum (-like) representation of information in the brain.[12]

Ohh, gee. They said "In particular". hahaha.

And for the love of all that is good, please remember that my argument is that QM might be a part of decision making.
It definitely is. It has definitely influenced this discussion.

And then I also want an apology due to your laziness and inability to read a Wiki article, and your appreciation for finding this for your dumb ass.
Uhh.. ok. I appreciate you finding an article that says stuff that disagrees with your statements. Thanks?
 
...
And for the love of all that is good, please remember that my argument is that QM might be a part of decision making.

...
It has already been pointed out to you that this does not constitute an argument at all.

ANYTHING 'might' be.

Literally ANYTHING.

"X might be part of Y" is not an argument of any kind; it is a cypher; an empty statement that gives only the illusion of saying anything at all.
 
It has already been pointed out to you that this does not constitute an argument at all.

ANYTHING 'might' be.

Literally ANYTHING.

"X might be part of Y" is not an argument of any kind; it is a cypher; an empty statement that gives only the illusion of saying anything at all.
That might be wrong.
 
You did not read it because I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Read all of the way to the end of the "Decision Making" section, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cognition . It is only about two pages of reading. Here it is,
I enjoyed the third paragraph particularly (don't confuse particularly with quantumly!):

....
Since the use of a quantum-theoretic framework is for modeling purposes, the identification of quantum structures in cognitive phenomena does not presuppose the existence of microscopic quantum processes in the human brain.

Quantum-like models of information processing ("quantum-like brain")

The brain is definitely a macroscopic physical system operating on the scales (of time, space, temperature) which differ crucially from the corresponding quantum scales. (The macroscopic quantum physical phenomena such as e.g. the Bose-Einstein condensate are also characterized by the special conditions which are definitely not fulfilled in the brain.) In particular, the brain is simply too hot to be able perform the real quantum information processing, i.e., to use the quantum carriers of information such as photons, ions, electrons. As is commonly accepted in brain science, the basic unit of information processing is a neuron. It is clear that a neuron cannot be in the superposition of two states: firing and non-firing. Hence, it cannot produce superposition playing the basic role in the quantum information processing. Superpositions of mental states are created by complex neural networks of neurons (and these are classical neural networks). Quantum cognition community states that the activity of such neural networks can produce effects which are formally described as interference (of probabilities) and entanglement. In principle, the community does not try to create the concrete models of quantum (-like) representation of information in the brain.[12]

Ohh, gee. They said "In particular". hahaha.

Okay, there is definitely two sides to this argument. I am not taking either side. I am going to do the smart thing and see how everything unfolds until we have a complete model of the brain and all of the processes.

Like everything that we have ever known, the old does not welcome the new, the incompleteness theorem and QM are examples. The old have said stupid things like "I am certain that ..." and "We definitely know ...", which is probably the reason why new concepts take time to be accepted. If we are going to learn anything from our elders, we are going to have to be able to be unsure and avoid the ignorant bliss of certainty.

And for the love of all that is good, please remember that my argument is that QM might be a part of decision making.
It definitely is. It has definitely influenced this discussion.

Well that is not really the input that I am talking about. I argue that QM might be a fundamental part of the process of decision making.
 
...
And for the love of all that is good, please remember that my argument is that QM might be a part of decision making.

...
It has already been pointed out to you that this does not constitute an argument at all.

ANYTHING 'might' be.

Literally ANYTHING.

"X might be part of Y" is not an argument of any kind; it is a cypher; an empty statement that gives only the illusion of saying anything at all.

Oh shut up, this is not like saying that a ghost might be in your home. This is about questioning a vastly unknown area that is microscopic, complicated, shown to exist in other parts of the brain, accepted by a small but increasing number of scientists and ultimately rests on QM. Am I going out on a limb - no - I am not. What the hell is so crazy about this? Are you sure that you want to be certain about this too?
 
Well that is not really the input that I am talking about. I argue that QM might be a fundamental part of the process of decision making.
Ok. There is no way, from what I've been told of reality, that particles are not a fundamental part of the decision making process. Whether or not they influence it is another question altogether.
 
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