A White teacher taught White students about White privilege. It cost him his job.

[Gospel]

Remember kids, legitimate is the word operating as a line in the sand that will separate us in this discussion.

 

[TomC]

Remember kids, legitimate is the word operating as a line in the sand that will separate us in this discussion.

Unfortunately, you are correct.

When it comes to many subjects, "legitimate" is a highly subjective term. But it will divide us. Because people(especially in our highly divisive culture) will draw such lines in the sand.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Remember kids, legitimate is the word operating as a line in the sand that will separate us in this discussion.

Unfortunately, you are correct.

When it comes to many subjects, "legitimate" is a highly subjective term. But it will divide us. Because people(especially in our highly divisive culture) will draw such lines in the sand.
Tom

Name 3 subjects where legitimate is a highly subjective term.

 

[Bomb#20]

I don't think parents should be able to dictate to teachers what they teach, especially in a class about current events. It never used to be that way when I was growing up.

Likewise. The government schools I attended taught us a Christian prayer and told us to stand up while the principal recited it over the PA system. They didn't ask my parents' permission. Good times.

Parents usually respected high school teachers even if they didn't always agree with them. A teacher should help students think and challenge them. White privilege is a fact, so why not allow white kids to discuss this.

I'm pretty sure the junior-high teacher who told us Noah's Ark really happened believed she was merely informing us of the facts too.

Why not help them understand racism instead of pretending it doesn't exist?

Why not help one's listeners think critically instead of pretending "racism" and "white privilege" are synonyms and pretending people who dispute "white privilege" are automatically pretending racism doesn't exist?

I dislike the term white because I believe that it is needlessly inflammatory and obscures the fact that having a white skin in the US means that you are treated differently in many respects than if you had brown or black skin. But to people who grew up poor and white, the word 'privilege' seems not only laughable but incendiary.

As well it should.

A lot of white people grow up with inadequate food, unstable housing, low income and knowing that some people were treated better than other people because of reasons.

Bingo. The theory that you can tell which people are privileged by inspecting their skin color is a racist theory.

... But I was a good student and relatively quiet and well behaved so basically, my word was taken over the word of other kids who maybe struggled more with school work than I did or who were more wiggly than I was. And I also was given a benefit of doubt because my older sibling was also a well behaved and stellar student and because, despite my grandparents' poverty, my family name was considered 'good'--we were known for being honest and hard working. I knew as a 10 year old that this was patently unfair. I saw kids treated poorly for no good reason other than the teacher's dislike, including one kid I used to be 'forced' to help with math but who was actually extremely good at math. The teacher just hated him and blamed any thing she could on him. I never understood why and incurred her wrath for pointing out the inaccuracy of some of her accusations. To no avail. The principal backed the teacher up.

Bingo. The people in your school with privilege were the authority figures.

In classrooms, I had 'privilege' although I never thought it was privilege at the time and still don't.

Bingo. What you had wasn't privilege, and the people who call that sort of treatment "privilege" are propagandists.

I thought then and still do that it is just the way that all kids should be treated: as if they were smart, as if they were trying their best, and if they made a mistake, it was an honest one and not deserving of undue ridicule or punishment.

Bingo. Being treated the way everyone ought to be treated is not a privilege. It's a right. People who tell you your rights are privileges are usually people who want to violate your rights. That is why the term "white privilege" is incendiary. It isn't used as a dialectal idiosyncrasy. It's used as a threat.

That is just one little white girl--a tiny tiny insignificant cog in a huge machine that reached far beyond what I knew even existed. I chafe at the words white privilege because most of my childhood did not seem particularly privileged. But I know that I got benefits of doubt that some other equally white kids did not get--'privileges, if you will, although I believed with all my heart that every child deserved to be treated as well as I was

Bingo. Being treated fairly, being treated as an individual, and being treated as if your irrelevant traits are irrelevant traits are not scarce commodities that some must be excluded from in order for others to receive.

--and during the year and a half, I attended a school with black children, I was aware that they black children were treated differently by the teachers. Not nearly as aware as they were but there were only a handful and one always notices injustices one experiences more than what is merely witnessed.

Bingo. Mistreatment of some does not provide an unearned reward to those who weren't mistreated.

Among other things, Cox said Hawn showed a profanity-laced video on white privilege to students and did not successfully mute out the language.

Cox also said Hawn did not provide assignments on opposing or differing views, although Hawn has said there is no legitimate opposing viewpoint saying white privilege doesn’t exist.

And thus starts the derail (well not really).

Well not really. This goes to the heart of the thread topic. Scopes was teaching science. The reason Hawn's defenders point to Scopes as an analogy is because they tell themselves what Hawn was teaching is sufficiently science-like to make it a good analogy. A lot of people think what L. Ron Hubbard or Mary Baker Eddy taught is that science-like too.

Is there a legitimate opposing viewpoint?

Anyone who denies that there's a legitimate opposing viewpoint is equating "legitimate" with "non-blasphemous". Religions are like children -- it's different when they're yours.

 

[Gospel]

Hi Bomb, I tried quoting one of the legitimate opposing viewpoints you shared to discuss it further but I couldn't find one. I'm a tad slow admittedly.

 

[Gospel]

A lot of white people grow up with inadequate food, unstable housing, low income and knowing that some people were treated better than other people because of reasons.

Bingo. The theory that you can tell which people are privileged by inspecting their skin color is a racist theory.

Bingo what? Are you saying here that privilege has something to do with someone's financial status? It doesn't. A poor black person and a poor white person encounter entirely different obstacles if, for example, if a poor white man and a poor black man applied for the same job the white man may get an interview while the black man wouldn't just because of his name alone. Interviewers would see a name like Trevon and nope right out of it while giving Hunter a try.

There are other examples of how being poor and white doesn't automatically remove privilege.

 

[Gospel]

I have anecdotal experience with it. When I was homeless in Bayshore Long Island NY I tried sleeping at the local train station Off Union Blvd with the other homeless people at first. It was 2 White men, 1 White woman & 2 Black men (me being one of the black ones obviously). The police would occasionally show up and ask me and the other black guy to leave while all three white people were left to linger around. Pissed me off but there was nothing I could do about it so we always complied. Every time we came back all three of them would be like "man that was F'd up what they did, we were just hanging out" blah blah blah.

Jeffery (the other black guy) upset me so much sometimes because he would just waive everything off like it was no big deal. I was pissed because I was the one with the Job and buying all those mutha fuckas food smokes and drinks and they wouldn't stick up for me.

But I digress

 

[Angry Floof]

I think this is the piece he got in trouble for? If so, I understand why some parents were offended.



I love it btw if that's not obvious however I don't believe it was appropriate for the classroom environment.

Edit: I meant Highschool classroom environment. College? Sure

She's amazing and that's an amazing performance. It's astounding just how much definition of white privilege she crammed into that piece, a litany of points that every white person needs to address within their own world view and way of thinking. It covers all the stupid of America eloquently and unapologetically.

White people: I don't care that Bubba and his ilk get their backwards ass bigot feelings hurt by her "tone" or whatever bit of nothing they find to be butthurt snowflakes about when black voices are heard in their presence. These are all points, and there are many more, that the white Western world needs to take into account and humble ourselves. Not because we as individuals have done something wrong (though a great many individuals have), but because the entire white world is conveniently buffered from black voices and perspectives. That's the basis of privilege - the privilege of not having to care about things that don't affect you directly. The level of bigotry or callous disregard this breeds in people with privilege varies, but it's always there to some degree.

And out of sight, out of mind, when it is imperative that we all make the effort to put in mind and keep in mind POC and anyone who is not mainstream in some way.

And when we as a group and a culture and as nations learn how to put those otherwise invisible or near-invisible fellow human beings in mind and keep them there, it won't matter what backward racists think.

In case anyone's not sure how to contribute to a less racist world, here's one way: we live in a time of unprecedented information availability. Take the opportunity to listen to Black voices, read and watch their stories, subscribe to their podcasts, Like their pages on social media. Etc, etc.

Look for POC wherever you go and note when and where you see them or don't see them. Be curious about this and also be vigilant in doing these things.

When you see or hear white voices and perspectives, turn to something else. There's nothing wrong with white perspectives, but just that you are swimming in white perspectives and that's why you think white perspectives are a sort of standard and make up the vast majority of perspectives. Challenge that! It is blatantly false! Challenge that assumption in your own mind if not everywhere, openly. Ignore white men for 30 days, whether it's media talking heads, writers, opinion peddlers like Joe Rogan or Sam Harris. Doesn't matter how much you like them or not, or whether you assess any of their voices as good or bad. Pay no attention to white men unless you have to. Just 30 days. And yes, I'm talking to white men, too, especially white men. This is not rudeness. It's not rude to not treat you as if you are not the center of the world. But it's beyond rude to NOT do what has to be done if you really give a shit about racism. Put your money where your mouth is. No white man will suffer for it, I promise.

 

[TomC]

Remember kids, legitimate is the word operating as a line in the sand that will separate us in this discussion.

Unfortunately, you are correct.

When it comes to many subjects, "legitimate" is a highly subjective term. But it will divide us. Because people(especially in our highly divisive culture) will draw such lines in the sand.
Tom

Name 3 subjects where legitimate is a highly subjective term.

1)The Northern Unionists invaded the Southern Confederation to rescue black people.
2)Nuclear power is safe and earth friendly.
3)Affirmative Action is not systemic racism.
4)The USA is a democracy.
5)Feticide is a basic human right.

Oops, that's 5.
Sorry.
Tom

ETA ~Capitalism is better than Communism.
I meant to include that, but I forgot.~

 

[Emily Lake]

How does one go about discussing current affairs without controversy?

It doesn't seem that difficult to me. Teach that this is a topic with a lot of current controversy, and provide the perspectives from multiple views, and invite discussion. Teaching current affairs is not the same as taking a side and teaching that side as correct.

For example, I think it should be entirely possible for a teacher to discuss current affairs in Texas regarding abortion without taking the side that abortion is murder and teaching their students that pro-life is the correct side of it.

 

[Angry Floof]

Oh, it seems that some people might be having trouble understanding privilege even though it's been explained here ad nauseum.

If you're white, you are almost guaranteed to be surrounded by white people, white voices, white perspectives, white literature, white history, white opinions, and white media.

You are aware that there are POC in the world and they do indeed have voices and perspectives that you catch a glimpse of from time to time. Your mileage varies, of course, but the point is that few white people are immersed in the voices and experiences of people who are not white.

And because you are most likely NOT one of those few who spends more time hearing black voices and seeing black faces more than white voices and faces, and you are comfortable with all the white voices and white faces around you, and you really think nothing of this because it's just how your world is and as it should be from your perspective.

In fact, if you were to suddenly be surrounded by only black voices and black faces, you might be a bit UNcomfortable. Again, your mileage may vary depending on a lot of things, but it's not bloody likely that any white person here lives in a world surrounded by black voices and black faces, and very few of them make any effort to bring those voices into their comfortable world.

And the discomfort of seeking to surround ourselves with black voices and black faces is not an indication of racism. It's just an indication of being asked to do something extra, to expend effort, to change habits, to think in patterns that our brains are not used to. And this kind of discomfort applies to almost all white people because all humans are creatures of habit and as long as we're not suffering in some way, we're not really inclined to go out and change our own world, especially our mental world.

So do it anyway. Imagine yourself being harassed by police while others are ignored while doing the same exact thing.

Imagine yourself being pulled over and instead of the usual "Oh, was I speeding officer? Dang, I'm getting a ticket. My day is ruined," you get dragged out of your car and slammed against it, and that's one of the better outcomes if it doesn't escalate and you're allowed to leave without further action on the part of law enforcement.

Imagine being black and being in the hospital, needing urgent medical attention, and seeing white people with less urgent need receiving care ahead of you.

Imagine just walking down the fucking street and a bunch of yahoos with as many guns between them as teeth start chasing you and drive you into a corner where they straight up murder you on the delusion that you committed a crime and that they are the ones who can do as they please to you in response.

Imagine paying higher prices for your homes, higher interest rates on your loans, higher rate of rejection for said loans, etc., etc., for no apparent reason and often when you actually have the better credit and job!

If you don't experience prejudice and discrimination every day of your life and you're not a minority, nothing is going to sting you enough to act. So you have to make the conscious decision to do it. I mean, if you really aren't racist as fuck and do actually care about things that don't affect you personally, you're going to have to put the people who are affected within your sphere of existence and not leave them outside as abstractions where it's easy to ignore. Don't make it easy to ignore people who are not like you.

 

[Emily Lake]

In fact, if you were to suddenly be surrounded by only black voices and black faces

... I might be at a family reunion.

 

[Toni]

A lot of white people grow up with inadequate food, unstable housing, low income and knowing that some people were treated better than other people because of reasons.

Bingo. The theory that you can tell which people are privileged by inspecting their skin color is a racist theory.

Bingo what? Are you saying here that privilege has something to do with someone's financial status? It doesn't. A poor black person and a poor white person encounter entirely different obstacles if, for example, if a poor white man and a poor black man applied for the same job the white man may get an interview while the black man wouldn't just because of his name alone. Interviewers would see a name like Trevon and nope right out of it while giving Hunter a try.

There are other examples of how being poor and white doesn't automatically remove privilege.

I 100% agree, acknowledge and have realized since I was a child that even though my family (during my early childhood years and my parents and grandparents before me) was poor, I had things easier than did black kids of similar (or better) economic circumstances because of my white skin.

But I will also tell you this: I live in a very working class town, which is also a college town. For a while, I worked in an anti-poverty program that served preschool children and their families. We had an annual open house. I saw that the group of almost 100% white parents were almost all uncomfortable sitting in their child's classroom, not because the chairs and desks were so small but because school had never been a place where they felt comfortable, where they were made to feel that they belonged and could succeed. In fact, the one black family and the handful of Asian families seemed much more at home in the classrooms than did almost all of the white parents. This is not how any parent of a child in a more well to do area behave at their children's preschool open house. They walk in like they own the place---not like maybe they shouldn't be there. Believe it or not, white people are also stopped in stores and directed elsewhere if they are perceived to not be wealthy enough to shop in a particular department store--even if that store isn't really upscale. Guess how I know that? In the place where my husband grew up, people just went to the grocery store and charged things to their account and went shopping for new things at nice stores when they...felt like it. They didn't have to count their pennies or wait until pay day, making do with balogna or peanut butter or just bread. But where I grew up? That was just how things were.

For the most part, people with southern accents are assumed to be less educated and less intelligent than ......city people from the north east. By northeasterners, anyway. There's all kinds of different privileges that are attached to (perceived) class/socioeconomic status and even geography. Shoot, I remember flying out of Detroit where I was looking for a place to rent, dressed like the wife of a grad student/mother of two young kids that I was (rumpled shirt, jeans that were not new) and was chatting with a businessman about his destination, which was the city I was living at the time and returning to. I told him some must see things and gave him some public transport tips about getting around and he remembered his manners and asked what I was doing in Detroit. I told him we were moving there and I had been looking for a place in (nice white upscale suburb) there and his eyes got big and he reached into his suit pocked and handed me his business card: he owned a very nice furniture store. We moved into the poor end of that little suburb because it had great schools. I had not realized that was, in part, code for almost 100% white. I was young and naive and did not realize that I was being shown properties on the white side of the redline.

Remember Hillary Clinton's remarks about the basketful of deporables? She wasn't talking about black people or brown people. She was talking about how big city people, especially on the coasts, view other (mostly white) people who live in what is for them, flyover country.

But in this country, a poor white person gets all sorts of benefits of doubt that any black person, of any level of education or wealth, no matter how well dressed and well (upper class white folks) mannered they are. No white parent I know has to give their sons 'the talk' that so many parents of color must give their sons. I've been with my husband when he was pulled over for a minor traffic violation and guess what? Neither of us were afraid. Because we're white. Years ago, my husband came out of a shoe repair shop to find himself confronted by armed police officers, weapons drawn, who shoved him against the storefront, screaming orders at him before they realized they had the wrong person (who had apparently shot a police officer) and we were both extremely grateful that he is white because we both knew that if his skin had been dark, he would have probably been dead. It was assumed that I earned my spot in college classrooms and in jobs because of my qualifications and not because of affirmative action. I definitely know that I got all kinds of breaks that other black people and brown people never got because I'm white.

So if you are trying to convince me that my white skin has given me privileges that no black person in America has, I will agree and say I've known that for as long as I can remember. But (most) white people don't treat other white people all the same, except with respect to black people.

 

[Angry Floof]

No matter how poor a white person is, very few of them live in a world that shows them black faces and voices. And no matter how poor a white person is, they still have the privilege of not having to care about things that happen to black people. YMMV, of course, but it really hinges on what you see in the world around you, and white people, even the poor ones, will see more white faces and hear more white voices than black ones.

Oh, and most white people think they are well aware of the experiences and perspectives of black people! Yet few white people, especially right wing authoritarians, know anything about black history, even now in the age of widespread social media where those stories and facts are right at our fingertips. If only we weren't so used to NOT caring about black stories or facts of black history...

Edit: I want to clarify that "caring about" where it concerns racism is synonymous with "being aware of" for most people. We know the ones who actively don't care, to put it mildly, but they are actually very few in number.

So even if you're the kind of person who harbors no ill will or prejudice toward black people, if you're white and you don't actively seek out black perspectives and issues, you're complicit in racism. To boot, the most kind hearted white person can and most do hold subconscious prejudices because of subtle influences of culture and environment. If you don't want to contribute to racism, look for black faces and stories and listen respectfully.

 

[Toni]

No matter how poor a white person is, very few of them live in a world that shows them black faces and voices. And no matter how poor a white person is, they still have the privilege of not having to care about things that happen to black people. YMMV, of course, but it really hinges on what you see in the world around you, and white people, even the poor ones, will see more white faces and hear more white voices than black ones.

Oh, and most white people think they are well aware of the experiences and perspectives of black people! Yet few white people, especially right wing authoritarians, know anything about black history, even now in the age of widespread social media where those stories and facts are right at our fingertips. If only we weren't so used to NOT caring about black stories or facts of black history...

Edit: I want to clarify that "caring about" where it concerns racism is synonymous with "being aware of" for most people. We know the ones who actively don't care, to put it mildly, but they are actually very few in number.

So even if you're the kind of person who harbors no ill will or prejudice toward black people, if you're white and you don't actively seek out black perspectives and issues, you're complicit in racism. To boot, the most kind hearted white person can and most do hold subconscious prejudices because of subtle influences of culture and environment. If you don't want to contribute to racism, look for black faces and stories and listen respectfully.

Of course you are right: there is no justifiable denial that to be white in America confers privilege over people of color in many explicit and implicit ways. The fact is that in many respects, this color division is so hard baked into America that most white people never notice it--it is 'just how things are' and if 'my family who came over here during the Great Potato Famine with 2 dollars between twelve of them made it, why can't everybody' kind of feeling. Without seeing all the ways that are more heavily stacked against black and brown people than any white person, even those white people who, up until the 60's were not necessarily white enough to gain entrance into certain clubs, neighborhoods, resorts. This would definitely include Jews and Italians and to a lesser degree, Catholics and the Irish and I'm sure others that I'm not thinking of at this very second.

In my more recent observation (meaning: zero data) from where I now live in the upper mid-west, the fact that there are significant immigrants/refugees from Somalia and some other countries in Africa actually makes it harder for me to stomach the racial attitudes I see. Those who are recent immigrants/refugees are often welcomed, with great fanfare and helped along with lots of support from local churches and community groups. And when they succeed, it just proves to some white people that the issues that African Americans whose grandparents were born and raised here have faced....have disappeared. Which, obviously they have not. I've seen/heard first hand how much praise is given to new arrivals for their bravery and perseverance and ingenuity from the same people who believe that George Floyd, Philandro Castile, and too many others deserved their deaths and who definitely avoid 'certain neighborhoods' and talk badly about Native and American black families, as though white American families aren't also struggling with the same issues.

The fact is that, as you said, most white people see very few black faces and hear very few black voices in their every day lives. Of course, there's Oprah, and all the black pro-athletes and musicians and some actors--and let us never forget the Obamas, but very few people actually know them--they're just people on screens and they do look mighty successful. And then there's the 'other' kind of black person we see on screens, usually in mug shots or in handcuffs, often much, much closer to us than Hollywood or Washington DC....Many white people never meet a black teacher, doctor, lawyer, business owner, accountant, much less live in the same neighborhood. Our schools and our neighborhoods are more segregated, not less.

I wish I agreed that the number of people who actually don't care about racism is small but I don't. I know too many people (Hello 90% of the people I attended high school with and the entire county where I grew up) who don't believe that there is really racism (because Oprah and the Obamas) and it's just that certain people are raised badly (by black parents) without good values, etc. It's hard to care about something if you're convinced it doesn't really exist....

 

[Angry Floof]

I wish I agreed that the number of people who actually don't care about racism is small but I don't. I know too many people (Hello 90% of the people I attended high school with and the entire county where I grew up) who don't believe that there is really racism (because Oprah and the Obamas) and it's just that certain people are raised badly (by black parents) without good values, etc. It's hard to care about something if you're convinced it doesn't really exist....

True, that fraction is probably much bigger than I suggested. But it's still a minority, while more than a small fraction of those who do care maybe don't care enough to actually do anything differently for it.

As for those overwhelmingly welcomed immigrants, I'd be interested in hearing about their experiences from their point of view. I'm sure they are grateful for the welcome and assistance, but if they're not white immigrants, it's a certainty that they have experienced racist America.

 

[Toni]

Oh, to be sure, they have experienced their share of racism and other bigotry—but their praises are sung by plenty of white folks who would have no such words of welcome or kindness for the descendants of enslaved people.

 

[barbos]

I agree with Bill Maher. This fixation on race issues makes it worse.
A lot of blacks and some whites made it a business which brings them money. This deservedly or not pisses off some poor whites, some of which then proceed to make a business out of it. This in turn pisses off blacks which say "You see ! we were right!".
After few iteration we have two groups of people whose whole existence revolves around hating each other for no other reasons other than hating other group for hating them in return...
And they make money out of it. I look at some black "leaders" and see what they think and they think "Boy, I am glad police shot that moron, without that I would have been poor and unemployed nobody"
Same with conservative radio-hosts - "Boy. am I lucky that poor black bastard family got that ridiculous compensation from the state government, without that I would not have had so many white idiot listeners and so much revenue from snake oil remedies I sell"



We need militant moderates like Bill Maher. CRT has in fact albeit rarely devolved into some pretty ridiculous garbage in schools. Kids don't need this shit.

 

[Bomb#20]

Hi Bomb, I tried quoting one of the legitimate opposing viewpoints you shared to discuss it further but I couldn't find one. I'm a tad slow admittedly.

I love you too, man.

I have anecdotal experience with it. When I was homeless in Bayshore Long Island NY I tried sleeping at the local train station Off Union Blvd with the other homeless people at first. It was 2 White men, 1 White woman & 2 Black men (me being one of the black ones obviously). The police would occasionally show up and ask me and the other black guy to leave while all three white people were left to linger around.

They ought not to have done that. It sucks how so many cops are racist. So, looking back on this with the perspective of time, what do you think the police should have done instead?

(a) Told all five of you to leave?
(b) Let all five of you stay?
(c) Made the five of you draw straws for the three available sleep-in-the-train-station slots?
(d) Other?

... I was the one with the Job and buying... and they wouldn't stick up for me.

Don't be too hard on them. Unless one of them was a down-on-his-luck lawyer, sticking up for you probably would have just gotten them tossed out as well.

 

[Gospel]

Any of the all five options wouldn't have been racist.