An illustration of media bias

[laughing dog]

Are you unaware of how Hamas has been making fake wrongs?

Can you explain what the means and how it is relevant to the point that the IDF is holding Hamas accountable?

Remember the starvation photos? Every last one of them was actually medical, not a supply problem.

Ignoring there was no reference to starvation, you forgot to answer the 2nd part about relevance to my response that the IDF was holding Hamas accountable?

 

[Derec]

Remember the starvation photos? Every last one of them was actually medical, not a supply problem.

Or not even from Gaza.

 

[Politesse]

Because they have done nothing. They have accomplished nothing. Hundreds of thousands have been killed, and the political situation is unchanged.

No, "hundreds of thousands" have not been killed. And much has been accomplished. Specifically relevant to this thread, Hezbollah is far weaker than it was a year ago.

Hardly. Recruitment is through the roof, and will be for decades.

 

[Derec]

Hardly. Recruitment is through the roof, and will be for decades.

[citation needed]

 

[Politesse]

Hardly. Recruitment is through the roof, and will be for decades.

[citation needed]

Are you joking? Surely you don't think blowing a kid's brains out is an effective way to convince someone not to join Hamas. What would you do if the government showed up, declared you an enemy of the state because of your political party, and shot your wife in the face? Would that pacify you or radicalize you?

 

[Toni]

Twelve year olds rarely, if ever, join any organization without parental permission and usually prodding.

Well, duh, those are Hezbollah families. Their fathers are Hezbollah terrorists and actual targets of the attack and owners of the pagers in question.

When it comes to religious or political groups, it is nearly a 100% chance it wasn’t the kids’ idea to join or to be involved.

Maybe it was their idea, supported by the family. We don't know. But they would have been brought up with Islamist, Hezbollah, pro-terrorism values since an early age.

In religious families, even less likely the kid joined on their own. Judging by my own limited ( my choice) experience with all religious ‘youth groups,’ there is some heavy duty indoctrination going on. And these were very mainstream groups. Even Girl Scouts was fairly indoctrination driven and assumed church affiliation.

Are you really comparing Girl Scouts with Hezbollah Scouts?

No, I’m saying that there are all kinds of indoctrination. Including in Boy/Girl Scouts, youth groups of the very most mainstream churches, schools, families, etc. My father was adamantly about people ( of certain complexions) knowing their places as he thought appropriate. Fortunately he also preached that we should think for ourselves and so you see the result.

Growing up feeling that you and people in your group—whatever that group is—is marginalized, not fully part of the whole can make one more susceptible to any type of cult or indoctrination.

 

[ZiprHead]

There are a lot of people who think the answer is in muzzling Israel, doing nothing about Hamas.

Is anyone here saying that?

You sound like Donald Trump.

 

[Tigers!]

There are a lot of people who think the answer is in muzzling Israel, doing nothing about Hamas.

Is anyone here saying that?

Well if you criticise, scold, complain about everything is Israel is doing or trying to do, yet barely mention Hamas then perhaps it might be true.

 

[Tigers!]

Hardly. Recruitment is through the roof, and will be for decades.

[citation needed]

Are you joking? Surely you don't think blowing a kid's brains out is an effective way to convince someone not to join Hamas. What would you do if the government showed up, declared you an enemy of the state because of your political party, and shot your wife in the face? Would that pacify you or radicalize you?

So I guess you would accept that Oct 7th hasn't exactly endeared Hamas to the Israelis then.
That would radicalise them against Hamas, Hezbollah etc.

 

[Politesse]

Hardly. Recruitment is through the roof, and will be for decades.

[citation needed]

Are you joking? Surely you don't think blowing a kid's brains out is an effective way to convince someone not to join Hamas. What would you do if the government showed up, declared you an enemy of the state because of your political party, and shot your wife in the face? Would that pacify you or radicalize you?

So I guess you would accept that Oct 7th hasn't exactly endeared Hamas to the Israelis then.
That would radicalise them against Hamas, Hezbollah etc.

Of course it didn't. The point of their attack was to provoke a war, and force (as they believed) an ultimate war between Islam and "The West". What are a few dead children, to men such as they, or to you? "Collateral damage", right? Unfortunate stepping stones on the path to peace?

 

[bilby]

The point of their attack was to provoke a war, and force (as they believed) an ultimate war between Islam and "The West".

The real point of the attack was to distract Americans from the war in Ukraine.

It was extremely successful, and represents one of the few really successful strategems deployed by Putin, who is much better at covert operations, propaganda, and misdirection than he is at running overt military campaigns (at which his army truly sucks).

Persuading Iran to give Hamas both the means and the plans was likely the hard part; Hamas were always going to be easy to push into incredibly stupid violence (various more sober Islamic influences have had to put a LOT of effort into preventing such actions for decades).

Once a player with money, materiel, and influence decided that they wanted Hamas to do something futile and self-destructive, getting that to happen was child's play.

Hamas are pawns. Iran too, though they are too useful to Russia to be entirely expendable, and too far from the minds of the Americans who obsess about the Middle East - that obsession is focussed on Israel, because it is two parts driven by Christian Dominionism, and one part by the political quest for the Jewish vote.

Make no mistake, the transition from a fragile peace, that relied on all the external parties having an interest in regional stability, and the all out war we see today, was entirely for and to the benefit of Putin, who was staring down the barrel of a surprisingly effective "I Stand with Ukraine" campaign that was pushing the US into providing military equipment and assistance to Zelenskyy.

Americans can always be relied upon to be distracted by any attack on Israel, so one was arranged.

The poor bastards on the ground who thought they could provoke (and win!) an "Ultimate Conflict between Islam and the West" were, just like their counterparts in the US Bible Belt, duped by their religious fundamentalism into believing nonsense - as always. The biggest nonsense of all being that events in Israel are of any significance or importance to anyone who doesn't live there.

Only religious nutters give the slightest credence to the idea of 'Ultimate Conflict'. There are no final battles; Just the latest bloody mess that will shortly become the background to yet another bloody mess.

You cannot bomb people into not hating you.

You cannot end war by winning. That should have been bloody obvious to everyone since 1918, and humanity no longer has any excuse for continuing to make this common and highly popular error.

The only way to end war is by talking, and by agreeing to smack the fuck out of anyone who chooses to start a war instead.

And terorism and kidnapping are crimes, and should be treated as such; They are not acts of war, even if you are really keen to have a pretext for war. Starting a war against a polity, just because a bunch of criminals are using it as a base, is stupid - not because criminals don't need to be pursued and punished, but because war is a completely ineffective and counterproductive method for bringing criminals to justice.

Hamas didn't choose to start a war; They genuinely believed their own bullshit and thought that October 7th would force Israel to grant them concessions in return for hostages. They commited a heinous crime, not an act of war. Hamas are idiots, made so by religion.

Iran didn't choose to start a war; They were asked by a powerful ally to fund a crime, in return for some fat weapons export contracts. They too are idiots, made so by religion, but they are also greedy fucks desperate for international trade and a non-pariah status.

Russia chose to start a war; And then deliberately provoked a second war as a distraction from the first.

Bibi allowed himself to be provoked, because he was looking for an excuse, because he too is an idiot, made so by religion.

And America let them get away with it, because they too are idiots, made so by religion.

 

[Tigers!]

Of course it didn't. The point of their attack was to provoke a war, and force (as they believed) an ultimate war between Islam and "The West". What are a few dead children, to men such as they, or to you? "Collateral damage", right? Unfortunate stepping stones on the path to peace?

I am glad you think that I am not appalled by the killing of children anywhere.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are you unaware of how Hamas has been making fake wrongs?

Can you explain what the means and how it is relevant to the point that the IDF is holding Hamas accountable?

Remember the starvation photos? Every last one of them was actually medical, not a supply problem.

Ignoring there was no reference to starvation, you forgot to answer the 2nd part about relevance to my response that the IDF was holding Hamas accountable?

The starvation photos are an example of the fake wrongs I'm talking about.

What's starving is the Hamas pocketbook, not the people of Gaza.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hardly. Recruitment is through the roof, and will be for decades.

[citation needed]

Are you joking? Surely you don't think blowing a kid's brains out is an effective way to convince someone not to join Hamas. What would you do if the government showed up, declared you an enemy of the state because of your political party, and shot your wife in the face? Would that pacify you or radicalize you?

You think they're given a choice??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are a lot of people who think the answer is in muzzling Israel, doing nothing about Hamas.

Is anyone here saying that?

You sound like Donald Trump.

Most of you are saying it. Not directly, you'll permit Israel to defend itself, but you do not tolerate anything short of perfection which in practice means no defense other than shooting what crosses the border. That is not viable. And Israel will still be blamed for bombing Israel when it's Hamas rockets falling short.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course it didn't. The point of their attack was to provoke a war, and force (as they believed) an ultimate war between Islam and "The West". What are a few dead children, to men such as they, or to you? "Collateral damage", right? Unfortunate stepping stones on the path to peace?

No, it was supposed to be one peck amongst many. They succeeded well above expectations and are getting smashed as a result.

Iran does not want battlefield war. Iran wants war by subversion and terrorism. Look at all the countries they are doing it to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hamas are pawns. Iran too, though they are too useful to Russia to be entirely expendable, and too far from the minds of the Americans who obsess about the Middle East - that obsession is focussed on Israel, because it is two parts driven by Christian Dominionism, and one part by the political quest for the Jewish vote.

I do agree Hamas are pawns. I don't think it's about the Jewish vote, there aren't that many Jews.

Rather, the US does not want to see Israel forced against the wall because they'll take out the region in going down. It's in our interest that they never need their bombs.

Make no mistake, the transition from a fragile peace, that relied on all the external parties having an interest in regional stability, and the all out war we see today, was entirely for and to the benefit of Putin, who was staring down the barrel of a surprisingly effective "I Stand with Ukraine" campaign that was pushing the US into providing military equipment and assistance to Zelenskyy.

Disagree, I think Iran wanting to scuttle relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia played a role, also.

You cannot end war by winning. That should have been bloody obvious to everyone since 1918, and humanity no longer has any excuse for continuing to make this common and highly popular error.

And Israel perfectly well knows it can't end the war. The only hope is to increase the time before the next round of fighting.

The only way to end war is by talking, and by agreeing to smack the fuck out of anyone who chooses to start a war instead.

But here is where you go off your rocker. What reason does either Russia or Iran have to want to end the war? They aren't even involved in any peace negotiations. And these situations exist because the smack the fuck option does not exist. These wars are always the result of one side having a base of support which is realistically untouchable.

And terorism and kidnapping are crimes, and should be treated as such; They are not acts of war, even if you are really keen to have a pretext for war. Starting a war against a polity, just because a bunch of criminals are using it as a base, is stupid - not because criminals don't need to be pursued and punished, but because war is a completely ineffective and counterproductive method for bringing criminals to justice.

And how do you propose to treat them as crimes? Israel knows most if not all of the 10/7 people, you think they can just go arrest them?!?!

Crimes by the de facto government are war.

Hamas didn't choose to start a war; They genuinely believed their own bullshit and thought that October 7th would force Israel to grant them concessions in return for hostages. They commited a heinous crime, not an act of war. Hamas are idiots, made so by religion.

That's what had happened in the past, hostages were of great value in negotiations.

Iran didn't choose to start a war; They were asked by a powerful ally to fund a crime, in return for some fat weapons export contracts. They too are idiots, made so by religion, but they are also greedy fucks desperate for international trade and a non-pariah status.

And here you're wrong. Iran has been doing the same thing all over the region.

Bibi allowed himself to be provoked, because he was looking for an excuse, because he too is an idiot, made so by religion.

And America let them get away with it, because they too are idiots, made so by religion.

Bibi didn't "allow himself" to be provoked, he had no option.

 

[Politesse]

Hardly. Recruitment is through the roof, and will be for decades.

[citation needed]

Are you joking? Surely you don't think blowing a kid's brains out is an effective way to convince someone not to join Hamas. What would you do if the government showed up, declared you an enemy of the state because of your political party, and shot your wife in the face? Would that pacify you or radicalize you?

You think they're given a choice??

Not really an answer to the question. Since you're jumping in, would you respond to the murder of your children by "converting" to the politics and religion of their murderer? Do you think Derec's logic makes sense, that blowing Palestine kids into pieces convinces people to leave Hamas?

 

[laughing dog]

Are you unaware of how Hamas has been making fake wrongs?

Can you explain what the means and how it is relevant to the point that the IDF is holding Hamas accountable?

Remember the starvation photos? Every last one of them was actually medical, not a supply problem.

Ignoring there was no reference to starvation, you forgot to answer the 2nd part about relevance to my response that the IDF was holding Hamas accountable?

The starvation photos are an example of the fake wrongs I'm talking about.

What's starving is the Hamas pocketbook, not the people of Gaza.

And how was the relevant to the actual topic of the discussion about the IDF holding Hamas accountable?

 

[ZiprHead]

There are a lot of people who think the answer is in muzzling Israel, doing nothing about Hamas.

Is anyone here saying that?

Well if you criticise, scold, complain about everything is Israel is doing or trying to do, yet barely mention Hamas then perhaps it might be true.

No one here is arguing that Hamas is the good guy. If there were, I'm sure they would be criticized, scolded, and complained about too. What is it about that that your side doesn't understand?

I've said numerous times there are no good guys in this war.