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And now the totally expected Trans Bathroom laws result

When you use a possibility as a rationale, it functions as the a supposition.

You're still making up stuff.

I keep pointing out that nobody knows what happened. People keep making up stuff to fill in the unavailable information that suits their agenda.
I'm trying not to do that.
Tom
Of course you are. You keep bringing up that Ruiz was drunk and disorderly. We don’t know that for sure.
To the extent that we know anything... we know that Ruiz was arrested for being drunk & disorderly. Of all the things involved in this that are effectively hearsay, this might be the most concrete-ish thing we've got. Lightweight poor quality brittle concrete that hasn't finished setting maybe... but everything else is still just tissue paper, right?
Being arrested for ——- does not mean one is ——-. My point was and is that it eithet hypocritical or disingenuous to criticize others for taking items on faith because “we don’t know all the facts” while doing exactly the same thing.
 
When you use a possibility as a rationale, it functions as the a supposition.

You're still making up stuff.

I keep pointing out that nobody knows what happened. People keep making up stuff to fill in the unavailable information that suits their agenda.
I'm trying not to do that.
Tom
Of course you are. You keep bringing up that Ruiz was drunk and disorderly. We don’t know that for sure.
To the extent that we know anything... we know that Ruiz was arrested for being drunk & disorderly. Of all the things involved in this that are effectively hearsay, this might be the most concrete-ish thing we've got. Lightweight poor quality brittle concrete that hasn't finished setting maybe... but everything else is still just tissue paper, right?
Being arrested for ——- does not mean one is ——-. My point was and is that it eithet hypocritical or disingenuous to criticize others for taking items on faith because “we don’t know all the facts” while doing exactly the same thing.
Personally, I'd probably be pretty disorderly if three guys beat me up and the cops didn't do anything about it.
 
People yes, but it gets more complicated. Some people think that transgender doesn't even exist. It is hard to manage a problem when people think transgender people are either crazy, perverts, or criminals. Then the issue of it impacting women more because, in general, the boundaries being crossed impact woman a lot more than man, and the indifference to this reality by others whether through legalistic simplicity or misogyny.

Then there is the actual issue of how to accommodate, if people took the rights to all sides involved in this seriously, which in itself, isn't easy. But we can't even get to that point.
In this thread, I have seen not one single person deny that some people are transgendered or otherwise non-gender conforming. In fact, people seem to be extremely accepting.
TomC and Bomb#20 (among others) appear very reluctant to accept transgenders changed gender.
:picardfacepalm:
You appear very reluctant to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord. You appear very reluctant to accept that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His prophet. Why are you so unaccepting of Christians and Muslims?[/sarcasm]

How the heck did your ridiculous notion that in order to be accepting of people you have to agree with them become so prevalent? And why did the progressives collectively decide to make it an article of faith just for transgendered people?

As for whether transgendered people changed gender, among progressives' many articles of faith, the one that keeps messing up their thinking on this topic is that they systematically equate "gender" with "gender identity" even though they have zero evidence that those are the same thing. That is an equivocation fallacy. Yes, I am very reluctant to accept that fallacies are logic.

"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time." -- World Health Organization​

Do you see anything in there about how a person identifies? "Socially constructed" means "socially constructed"; it does not mean "individually constructed by your personal feelings". Gender identity is the sex role you categorize yourself as; gender is the sex role other people categorize you as. So whether a transgendered person changed gender is not up to me, and it's not up to you, and it's not up to that transgendered person. A person with gender dysphoria can only change to the other gender when the people of a society systematically start thinking of people with his or her characteristics as the other gender. Gender activists can advocate that we do so, and gender activists can pretend that we do so, but the fact of the matter depends on whether we actually do so.

Consequently, if people by and large regard a biological male who looks like a woman and had a sex-change operation and has breast implants and an artifical vagina and no penis and a ton of estrogen and no testosterone as a woman, then she changed gender. And if people by and large regard a biological male who looks like a man and shows no sign of femaleness other than claiming to be female and has had no surgery and has a beard and a ton of testosterone and no estrogen as a man, then he has not changed gender. Social constructs don't disappear in a puff of progressives' illogic.

And if that's too nuanced a view for progressives' taste, because it means some have changed gender and some haven't, so consequently it's too nuanced to be summarized as "Bomb#20 accepts transgenders changed gender" or "Bomb#20 appears very reluctant to accept transgenders changed gender", then progressives can get stuffed. If you want to tell women that the bearded and intact male menacing them in the women's room who says he's a woman really did change gender, and you want to tell women they should believe you because you know better than they do what it is to be a woman, knock yourself out. As for me, I am not willing to do that much mansplaining.
 
Team. Sorry, but I'll need to clean this up again if we don't get on topic (would be my fault).
 
It is an indisputable fact that the woman is not responsible for the violent actions committed by someone else (in this case men). I am confident that we can all unanimously agree on this matter.
 
It is an indisputable fact that the woman is not responsible for the violent actions committed by someone else (in this case men). I am confident that we can all unanimously agree on this matter.

A huge part of the problem in this thread is the lack of indisputable fact. Nearly everything is based on the assertions of someone claiming to be a victim. That would be Ruiz.

I'm not saying she did, because I don't know. But if the woman in question punched Ruiz before he got out of the women's bathroom, she wouldn't be the first chick I've met who isn't a delicate flower.
Not all chicks are wimps.
Tom
 
T side or hey side? or the th side and ey side?
It is an indisputable fact that the woman is not responsible for the violent actions committed by someone else (in this case men). I am confident that we can all unanimously agree on this matter.

A huge part of the problem in this thread is the lack of indisputable fact. Nearly everything is based on the assertions of someone claiming to be a victim. That would be Ruiz.

I'm not saying she did, because I don't know. But if the woman in question punched Ruiz before he got out of the women's bathroom, she wouldn't be the first chick I've met who isn't a delicate flower.
Not all chicks are wimps.
Tom
I'm a small man, only 5'5", light boned as well, and I have encountered many women stronger than myself in my lifetime.
 
One does not need to be ‘a delicate flower’ whatever the hell that means in order to feel frightened or startled or to be attacked, assaulted and/or raped.

One can stand up for oneself and for others regardless of one’s physical size or the physical size of the person who appears to be threatening.

One can appear to be a delicate flower but still have the ability to stand up for oneself and others. Physically and otherwise.

One can be tall, muscular and sport a full face of hair and be assaulted or even raped.

People have a right to stand up for themselves and for others who appear vulnerable.

I am still struggling to see the justification in examining and criticizing the behavior of a cis woman who verbally confronted a trans man when he was in the woman’s bathroom. Why does THAT deserve so much discussion, rather than the impossible position Ruiz was placed in—and the difficult position of the cis woman who confronted him?

The real issues are laws and policies that force people to use facilities that are at odds with their appearance and the violence of the men who physically attacked Ruiz.
 
The real issues are laws and policies that force people to use facilities that are at odds with their appearance and the violence of the men who physically attacked Ruiz.

I don't see anyone here disagreeing with that, particularly.
Not much of a discussion to be had.

How much of Ruiz's story is accurate is a different question. What the relevant backstory might be is also interesting.
Tom
 
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The real issues are laws and policies that force people to use facilities that are at odds with their appearance and the violence of the men who physically attacked Ruiz.

I don't see anyone here disagreeing with that, particularly.
Not much of a discussion to be had.

How much of Ruiz's story is accurate is a different question. What the relevant backstory might be is also interesting.
Tom
I keep forgetting that this is a boys club.
 
Except you are taking gender as binary.
Could you show me where this happened? Because I don't think it did.

@Bomb#20 distinguishes between sex and gender. Not everyone does.
Lots of IIDB posters flip flop around between sex and gender.
Possibly he did, but I don't remember it. I do remember lots of other members doing so.
Tom
You're taking my words out of context. I already explained why I'm saying it's not binary in this case.
 
When you use a possibility as a rationale, it functions as the a supposition.

You're still making up stuff.

I keep pointing out that nobody knows what happened. People keep making up stuff to fill in the unavailable information that suits their agenda.
I'm trying not to do that.
Tom
Of course you are. You keep bringing up that Ruiz was drunk and disorderly. We don’t know that for sure.
To the extent that we know anything... we know that Ruiz was arrested for being drunk & disorderly. Of all the things involved in this that are effectively hearsay, this might be the most concrete-ish thing we've got. Lightweight poor quality brittle concrete that hasn't finished setting maybe... but everything else is still just tissue paper, right?
I would not trust the police in this case--was he really drunk and disorderly or was this a way of blaming him rather than his attackers?
 
I would not trust the police in this case--was he really drunk and disorderly or was this a way of blaming him rather than his attackers?

Why do you trust anyone in this particular case?
I don't.

However, even his mom described him that way.
Tom
 
I am still struggling to see the justification in examining and criticizing the behavior of a cis woman who verbally confronted a trans man when he was in the woman’s bathroom. Why does THAT deserve so much discussion, rather than the impossible position Ruiz was placed in—and the difficult position of the cis woman who confronted him?
If her behavior had been civil there would not have been three people coming to her supposed rescue.
 
I would not trust the police in this case--was he really drunk and disorderly or was this a way of blaming him rather than his attackers?

Why do you trust anyone in this particular case?
I don't.

However, even his mom described him that way.
Tom
Drunk, sure, but to the point of warranting arrest? The police keep siding with the right wing morons.
 
If her behavior had been civil there would not have been three people coming to her supposed rescue.

Who knows what she did?
Nobody.
Even Ruiz isn't claiming she not civil.

Nobody, here on IIDB, knows what happened during those few minutes in Ohio almost a year ago.
Tom
 
Drunk, sure, but to the point of warranting arrest? The police keep siding with the right wing morons.

How do you know how drunk he was?
Even his mom agreed that he got arrested for being drunk and disorderly.
What "right wing morons" are you referring to? What makes you think that the police were "siding" with anyone in particular?
Tom
 
Drunk, sure, but to the point of warranting arrest? The police keep siding with the right wing morons.

How do you know how drunk he was?
Even his mom agreed that he got arrested for being drunk and disorderly.
What "right wing morons" are you referring to? What makes you think that the police were "siding" with anyone in particular?
Tom
No one here knows how drunk he was. The arrest does not tell us anything about drunk he was. The police have lots of latitude on arrests.

What we do know that the victim of an alleged assault who had marks on him was arrested for being drunk and disorderly but none of the alleged assailants were arrested.
 
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