Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[Tigers!]

I put it to you that one reason underlying the lower murder rate in Australia is gun control.

Also we do not seem to have the overwhelming anger or hatred for each other that so many yanks seem to have.

 

[Hermit]

I put it to you that one reason underlying the lower murder rate in Australia is gun control.

Also we do not seem to have the overwhelming anger or hatred for each other that so many yanks seem to have.

"Yanks" formally describes the US citizens north of the Mason-Dixon line, but yes, that is another one. We have more of a sense of communalism rather than of that rugged individualism that causes so much violence in the US. While four sitting presidents have been killed in that benighted country, no Australian prime minister has met that fate. The most violent death of an Australian PM befell Harold Holt. He decided to take a swim at Cheviot Beach in stormy conditions, got swept out in a rip and just disappeared, presumably drowned. We also gained our independence from the old dart via a simultaneous series of Acts of Parliaments in the UK and Australia between 1901 and 1985 rather than a war, and we never had a civil war in order to resolve differences of opinions.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Just heard this afternoon there was a huge shootout between two groups in our Old Town last night, an area with lots of bars in centrury old buildings. Over a hundred shell casings identified, only one non-life threatening injury. I guess it's lucky these idiots don't know how to aim.

We need to legalize personal protection grenades so these boys might hit something.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I put it to you that one reason underlying the lower murder rate in Australia is gun control.

Also we do not seem to have the overwhelming anger or hatred for each other that so many yanks seem to have.

There's the rub. It's called maturity, thinking like an adult. Lots of americans are proud of their paranoia. Maybe it's too much coffee.

 

[bigfield]

I put it to you that one reason underlying the lower murder rate in Australia is gun control.

Also we do not seem to have the overwhelming anger or hatred for each other that so many yanks seem to have.

Probably for a number of reasons, but mostly it boils down to the fact that Australia is generally a safer place to live, therefore we are less afraid of each other. We have better social security, worker protections and public services. Nobody's got guns. The police are better at their jobs. Fewer places starved of infrastructure and public services.

 

[Politesse]

I am no fan of the NRA and the republican insanity on guns especially assaultl rifles, but they are not really the main problem.

Would Harris and Klebold have been problems if they didn't have access to firearms?

You are missing the point.

If kids start setting fires around the country in schools do you blame the availability of matches or do you look for an underlying cause for the behavior? Where do parents fit into all of this.

Do you blame DUI deths on auto makers? Do we need cars on the streets that go faster than 100mph?

Always with the bizarre analogies..

Harris and Klebold weren't just armed by gun manufacturers, they were inspired by gun culture. Their "real motivations" are a matter of much dispute, but there is no room for doubt that they were heavily involved, even obsessed with, the gun scene. As cultural symbols, guns are not the same thing as matches or cars. No one ties their personal identity or their sense of agency to matches.

We do regulate pyrotechnic technology in various ways, though, and arson is a major reason why. Matches can be bought by everyone in most jurisdictions, but the same is not true of, say, flamethrowers. Or even many common accelerants. As they should be. I don't consider my right to start a fire to be meaningfully impinged by the illegality of selling napalm at the local Walmart.

 

[Rhea]

What is it in our culture, what kids are exposed to, and how they are being rased leads to such behavior? The shootings are a symptom of a greater issue.

What are kids exposed to that leads to such behavior? Easy access to guns, Steve. They are exposed to the nowledge that it is NOT HARD to do this.

The shootings are symptom of a choice to solve their problems with guns instead of another method.

They are also exposed to the toxic and dangerous culture of might-makes-right which is promulgated by - you guessed it - the gun industry and it’s PR arm, the NRA.

Other symptoms are teen suice, alchohol addiction, and drug addiction.

Interestingly, though many people attempt suicide, the most successful ones are those who use guns. Without guns, there would be fewer successful suicides.

….AND fewer successful public murders.

I am no fan of the NRA and the republican insanity on guns especially assaultl rifles, but they are not really the main problem.

They really ARE the main problem. They are behind the money and lobbying to prevent laws that intercept illegal sales. They are behind the culture of christmas cards with guns on them. They are behind the propaganda that the best way to solve your problems is with a gun. They are behind the lobbying the is preventing laws to enable biometrics so that guns can only be operated by their owners. They are behind the lobbying to prevent laws requiring guns to be locked away from children, or not left in glove compartments, or reported when missing or stolen.

They are ABSOLUTELY the locus of the main problem.

 

[steve_bank]

Sorry Rea, my experience says otherwise.

In the 50s 60s as kids we acted out what we saw in movies and TV. I once gave a girl a bloody nose mimicking Moe from the Three Stooges.

Now retired I watch more tV than I ever have. The amount of gun play and violnce to music is astounding in TV and movies. People shooting each oter is routine.

It is not just about the schools which in thethe torlity of the violnce is actualy inconseunctial.

A few weeks ago a woman was shot to death in a parking lot when people in two cars stared shooting at each other. This kind of thing has become routine around here. The majority of it is teens and yiung adult males across races.

A lot of maony is pent on adverting because it works Reteed messaging connecting an idea to a message. When I was kid there were the Marlboro Men. Tough cowboys in tobacco commercials.

When James Dean rolled up a pack of cigratess in a T shirt sleev in amove young nakes copied it. They held circrettes like he did.

Media influences people including kidss who have no emotional defenses.

When all those Hong Kong martial arts movies in the 70s came to America it generated a martial arts industry. Kids were acting out the movies.

To say media has no influnce on kids is if nothing else unscientific.


Availability of guns adds fuel to the fire, but the violnce is a symptom of society. To me a lrgete part of TV, music, and movies normalizes dysfunctional behavior. There is little in pop culture that represents a positve stable life.

The Johnny Depp trial is an example. Rich dysfunctional people. Curt Cobain blew his head off with a shotgun, and he is a pop idol. No one says his life style was self destructive. We see a straem of media stars whining about how they are depressed or are mentally ill. Something has changed in our culture.

The NRA is an easy target. Blame them and we can avoid questions about the foundation and morality of our culture.


I listneed to an ex miltray trainer on a show about violmce. He said video ganes are esentialy what basic training is about. Training soldiers to point and shoot without hesitation and remorse.

Anybody who thinks kids playing video games getting points for killing and destroying is healthy might want to seek counseling themselves, IMO.

And where is parenting in all this? A kid or young adult is out late a night with a gun and ends up shot by police. parents cry out why the kid had to be shot by police. How is it a teen is out at night with a gun? What if any is parental responsibility?

How the hell does a grade school kid show up at school with a loaded gun? It happend recently around here. The primary resonsibility for kids rets with the paents.

I support laws that penalizes parents if guns are not adequate kept from kids at home and the kid uses a gun or takes it outside. A kid shows up at school with a gun lock up the damn parents.

It is the culture that has to change.

 

[ZiprHead]

It is the gun culture that has to change.

FTFY

 

[TomC]

It is the gun culture that has to change.

FTFY

How about the culture of entitlement, victimhood, divisiveness, and violence?
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

It is the gun culture that has to change.

FTFY

How about the culture of entitlement, victimhood, divisiveness, and violence?
Tom

Can you give some notable examples of each of these?

 

[atrib]

Apparently, the Oklahoma shooter bought his AR15 a few hours before his rampage in that Tulsa hospital. He blamed a back surgeon there for pain he was suffering after his surgery, so he wanted to murder him. It's really convenient not to have those pesky waiting period laws or intrusive background checks to get in the way of an instant solution. Oklahoma's Republican lawmakers have been hard at work to get the government off the backs of citizens in a hurry.

Let's say he wasn't able to buy an AR15. He also had a handgun. Handguns are also very effective firearms, especially at close range.
If he still wanted the firepower of a rifle but without access to an AR15, there are non-assaulty rifles that fire the same cartridge as the AR15, and thus have similar ballistics.

I think the whole assault weapons angle is a distraction. Vast majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns.

Pretty much every handgun I have used (numerous 1911s, Glocks, Berettas and others) are vastly inferior to an AR15 as a weapon of mass killing. The AR15 is light, ergonomic, easy to aim and has a mild recoil that makes it perfect for the novice and expert alike, and I'm not even counting on the magazine capacity. Most handguns require experience to be used efficiently and effectively against multiple targets, and some can be extremely picky about ammo and regular cleaning. While I love my 1911s for the mechanically beautiful tools that they are, I would pick an AR15 if I had to defend myself against a crowd every single day.

The caliber of the round has very little to do with ability to kill once you move past the 22. A run-of-the-mill 9mm Luger full metal jacket projectile (inexpensive and typically used for range work) is just as lethal as a 10mm jacketed hollow point projectile with a P+ load when used on a human target who is not wearing body armor.

You seem to have a lot of good information for potential mass killers, but I suspect that they choose the  AR-15 style rifle mainly because of all the free advertising those weapons get in news stories. Most mass killers wouldn't want to be caught dead using any other weapon, so a great many of them are caught that way.

Guns like the AR15 are designed to make it easy to kill a lot of people, even when wielded by a novice. They are not really designed for hunting or sport shooting, even though they can be used for such activities, especially hunting dangerous game like feral hogs (which is a thing in the south). Guns like the AR15 and its derivatives don't belong in the hands of civilians. That was my point.

 

[Copernicus]

Sorry Rea, my experience says otherwise.

In the 50s 60s as kids we acted out what we saw in movies and TV. I once gave a girl a bloody nose mimicking Moe from the Three Stooges.

Now retired I watch more tV than I ever have. The amount of gun play and violnce to music is astounding in TV and movies. People shooting each oter is routine.

It is not just about the schools which in thethe torlity of the violnce is actualy inconseunctial.

A few weeks ago a woman was shot to death in a parking lot when people in two cars stared shooting at each other. This kind of thing has become routine around here. The majority of it is teens and yiung adult males across races.

A lot of maony is pent on adverting because it works Reteed messaging connecting an idea to a message. When I was kid there were the Marlboro Men. Tough cowboys in tobacco commercials.

When James Dean rolled up a pack of cigratess in a T shirt sleev in amove young nakes copied it. They held circrettes like he did.

Media influences people including kidss who have no emotional defenses.

When all those Hong Kong martial arts movies in the 70s came to America it generated a martial arts industry. Kids were acting out the movies.

To say media has no influnce on kids is if nothing else unscientific.


Availability of guns adds fuel to the fire, but the violnce is a symptom of society. To me a lrgete part of TV, music, and movies normalizes dysfunctional behavior. There is little in pop culture that represents a positve stable life.

The Johnny Depp trial is an example. Rich dysfunctional people. Curt Cobain blew his head off with a shotgun, and he is a pop idol. No one says his life style was self destructive. We see a straem of media stars whining about how they are depressed or are mentally ill. Something has changed in our culture.

The NRA is an easy target. Blame them and we can avoid questions about the foundation and morality of our culture.


I listneed to an ex miltray trainer on a show about violmce. He said video ganes are esentialy what basic training is about. Training soldiers to point and shoot without hesitation and remorse.

Anybody who thinks kids playing video games getting points for killing and destroying is healthy might want to seek counseling themselves, IMO.

And where is parenting in all this? A kid or young adult is out late a night with a gun and ends up shot by police. parents cry out why the kid had to be shot by police. How is it a teen is out at night with a gun? What if any is parental responsibility?

How the hell does a grade school kid show up at school with a loaded gun? It happend recently around here. The primary resonsibility for kids rets with the paents.

I support laws that penalizes parents if guns are not adequate kept from kids at home and the kid uses a gun or takes it outside. A kid shows up at school with a gun lock up the damn parents.

It is the culture that has to change.

Luckily, all of the other countries in the world have no access to these violent movies and TV shows. It's all just about what Americans experience that makes them violent. You could flood those other countries with guns, and it wouldn't make any difference, because American culture is so screwed up. Wasn't it Hong Kong, California, that produced all of those Hong Kong martial arts movies? Wait till video games hit Asia and Europe. It will be mayhem everywhere else, too, and Americans can smugly say "I told you so." Meanwhile, let's not blame guns for all of the violence that happens in America. Guns don't kill people. Americans with guns kill people.

 

[Jarhyn]

Let's start with together going out to our democratic caucuses, the only caucuses that will hear our words, then, @steve_bank and then support those as the specific gun control policy planks!

Make this the face of gun control, the whole shape of it, and see change.

As to the culture, it's not games. Healthy people use and understand games. Before video game panic ala Steve it was satanic panic ala D&D, and comic books, and all sorts of things.

It is always going to be targeted at whatever the active vehicle for fantasy is because, as something dark on a screen once said: "people who have no hopes are easy to control; and whoever has the control... has the power!"

I expect a lot of it is the power to make a child more a reflection of their parent for many who seek that power and control, to exist over others.

But I can guarantee that it is exactly the people who seek to crush the hopes and dreams of others, or who have none of their own but those they have been told to have, these are the ones who are so willing to tear everything down in the most ugly way possible as they leave this coil.

It is incel culture.

It is a lack of consent education (saying, and hearing, and accepting "no" or whatever safe-word has replaced that word for the evening).

It is the cultural emphasis on sex and who has it and with whom and whether that makes you worthy of acceptance by your peers.

It is in some ways a lack of good educational resources and environments for atypical persons.

And it is access to guns and a family that says guns solve problems.

 

[bilby]

…and we never had a civil war in order to resolve differences of opinions.

We do have State of Origin, though, which comes close.

 

[bilby]

It is the gun culture that has to change.

FTFY

How about the culture of entitlement, victimhood, divisiveness, and violence?
Tom

The rest of the world has that - often directly imported from Hollywood - but we don’t have the mass shootings.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, you are comparing a small subset of unjustified gun-injury homicides--just mass shootings--against all justified gun-injury homicides. The point of gun regulation laws is to bring down the total number of gun-injury homicides, not just mass shootings. That is the only "apples to apples" comparison that makes sense. Although you didn't actually cite any statistics or back up your claim, it is pretty clear that you were creating a straw man with that approach, since nobody made that comparison before you.

No--because the vast majority of those gun-injury homicides are being done with guns that weren't legally owned in the first place. Rules applied to legally-owned guns do nothing about guns that aren't legally owned. The only way you would have any effect is by reducing the number of guns stolen by criminals--and there's so many around that you're not going to accomplish much.

Mass shootings can be reduced by some specific laws, e.g. a ban on large capacity magazines that allow shooters to keep shooting for extended periods of time without a need to reload. I have no idea what specific "proposed gun measures" you are talking about, since that wasn't in the post I was responding to, and I also have no idea what your objections to them are or how you construct your "costs/benefits" analysis.

We have a total of one case where a shooter got jumped on reload--and it was actually moot as his magazine was damaged and couldn't have fired anyway had he succeeded in reloading. Most of the time mass shooters carry multiple guns negating the whole issue. It's one of these do-something approaches with no regard for whether the something is actually of any value.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

With a semi-automatic? But as you do point out, the cost of 260 or so families losing a child over the past couple of decades in mass school shootings is nothing compared to the loss of the right defend oneself from the boggie man.

The left has gotten obsessed with "semi-automatic", I believe without any real understanding.

Most guns are semi-automatic and many of the remainder are revolvers which are for all practical purposes semi-automatic but a bit slower to reload.

We have a traffic problem. Let's solve it by banning cars. People can make do with trucks fine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think you’re wrong, Loren. Regulation of firearms reduced the number of gun homicides and suicides when it was put into effect.

People keep claiming this about Australia's actions--but the murder rate doesn't show it.

I do expect there is some effect on suicide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The issue was mass shootings. Switching to murders is a big moving of the goalposts.

Getting rid of guns would put a substantial dent in mass shootings but it would do basically nothing about murder. Just look at Australia where the much-vaunted gun measures did just that. You're getting rid of some high profile events but at a probable cost of more total dead.

I just looked at murder rates in Australia and the US rate is more than 5 times that if Australia, whose rate continues to decline.

Yes, but their murder rate was always lower. Look at a graph of their murder rate--you can't see their gun control efforts.

Want to actually reduce murder in the US? Take the drug war out and shoot it.