Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[Patooka]

What about semiautos without bump stocks?

Something that has an effective rate of fire of 120-180 rpm? Fuck no. I'm going to keep saying it. You don't need a weapon capable of that.

The bump stock decision is a good example of why governing by executive orders is a flawed idea. Laws passed by Congress are always stronger than mere executive orders. Biden had a Dem majority Congress for two years. He could have pushed to codify Trump's EO into actual law.

Agreed. It was probably the one decent thing Trump did. Biden fucking it up is such an unforced error.

 

[Derec]

It's a 100% totally legitimate cromulent unit of measurement.

FIFY.
Btw, how much is a metric buttfuck in base SI units?

You should totally look it up right after the meaning of the word obtuse.

Having an angle measure of greater than 90° but less than 180°.

You would call it a de facto ban. I, and the majority of the developed world, would call it common fucking sense.

I thought so. I have nothing against reasonable regulation. But that is very different than (de facto) bans.

And before you ask, common fucking sense is vastly superior to common sense and is a totally legitimate designation.

If you say so.

There is no legitimate reason to own a weapon with a semi automatic receiver. And reason for this is obvious. Like literally every other good faith piece of legislation ever enacted in the history of the human race, it is motivated solely on harm minimisation.

Semiauto means one shot per trigger pull. Same as revolvers.
I do not understand this obsession with semiauto action. Aren't you just as dead being shot with one of these?

A mass shooting with a Mosin Nagant; 2 dead 3 wounded. A mass shooting with an Armalite that has after market attachments and custom 40 round mags; 20+ dead and many more wounded. Most people don't find this a difficult concept to get their heads around. What part of that math still confounds you?

A mass shooting with a Glock 19 and Walther P22: 33 dead, 17 wounded.
I know these are semiautos, but they are handguns, not rifles. If semiauto handguns were not accessible to Cho, a number of revolvers would be just as deadly. If you plan a mass shooting, dropping an empty revolver and taking a fresh one out of your backpack is much faster than reloading.
And while Democrats want to ban certain (by no means all) semiauto rifles, not even they are proposing to ban semiauto handguns. It would be political suicide, much more so than the already deadly political suicide of β. Not to mention that such a ban would be futile, as it would not hold up to constitutional scrutiny.

Instead of wanting to ban certain semiauto rifles (or even worse, all semiauto firearms) how about we seriously enforce gun crimes when we apprehend the perps. Take this mass shooting.

Neighbor talks about ‘gruesome’ shooting that killed 3-year-old, left 4 children hurt in Dumfries area

The Prince William County Police Department arrested 20-year-old Kenyatta Lee Oglesby for the shooting Wednesday afternoon. Police said Oglesby was in a relationship with the 17-year-old girl and had been staying at the townhome. He’s charged with Murder, Aggravated Malicious Wounding (4 counts), and Use of a Firearm in the Commission of a Felony (5 counts).
[...]
In October of 2021, Oglesby was arrested by officers with the Metropolitan Police Department and charged with unlawful possession of a firearm. According to an affidavit, an officer said the then-18-year-old had a “fully functional and operational” ghost gun.
Oglesby was offered, and accepted, a plea deal in May 2022. He plead guilty to the crime, but records show he never showed up for an October hearing, prompting a bench warrant to be filed.

Oglesby should have been remanded to custody as soon as he plead guilty. If he was in jail where he belonged, this shooting could have been prevented. On the other hand, if semiauto firearms were banned, he could still easily obtain one illegally (he had a ghost gun two years ao after all!) And even if he couldn't, he could still have committed these crimes with a revolver.

 

[Swammerdami]

So, less than 400 Americans are murdered by rifles per year? I guess the Ilk is right to focus on gendered bathrooms which kill hundreds. 400 is a pittance; surely the removal of Dr. Seuss's Mulberry Street killed thousands more than that.

But guns have drawbacks other than successful murders. Here's a story of a woman who brandished her beloved handgun during road rage and ended up with a dozen broken bones as a result of incredible police incompetence.

Most infamous is of course Kyle Rittenhouse who defended himself against some Antifa thugs.

It's good to see you finally acknowledge that Rittenhouse is infamous. This is the cowardly George Zimmerman-wannabe who got an AR-15 on his 16th birthday (the one gun he was LEGALLY allowed to acquire) and responded to the 15-year old girls who rejected his advances, by going on crusade to wave his surrogate penis at adults.

Does anybody know whether the "thugs" he shot were "Antifa" (whatever that means)? Or do Ilkists just apply that label to anyone who isn't a Trump-licker or gun nut?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Most infamous is of course Kyle Rittenhouse who defended himself against some Antifa thugs.

It's good to see you finally acknowledge that Rittenhouse is infamous. This is the cowardly George Zimmerman-wannabe who got an AR-15 on his 16th birthday (the one gun he was LEGALLY allowed to acquire) and responded to the 15-year old girls who rejected his advances, by going on crusade to wave his surrogate penis at adults.

Does anybody know whether the "thugs" he shot were "Antifa" (whatever that means)? Or do Ilkists just apply that label to anyone who isn't a Trump-licker or gun nut?

Good thing he could legally own that gun or he would have had no way to defend himself.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oglesby should have been remanded to custody as soon as he plead guilty. If he was in jail where he belonged, this shooting could have been prevented. On the other hand, if semiauto firearms were banned, he could still easily obtain one illegally (he had a ghost gun two years ao after all!) And even if he couldn't, he could still have committed these crimes with a revolver.

I've got to imagine that evading gun fire from a standard gun verses a semi-auto aren't the same. I can't imagine either is easy, but a revolver isn't as simple to kill with than a semi-automatic.

Sad that some are pretty much saying to school children that this difference isn't important... while they are fleeing for their lives? Or the teachers and staff who immediately get elevated to SWAT staff (without weapons or protection)? After all, aren't these people who have to respond to the weapons the shooter is using and legally allowed to get... not you?

 

[laughing dog]

He may have been moving toward the exit, but he was still threatening the patrons and employees with deadly force. So he was most definitely a threat. That the patron chose the moment the perp was turned away from him to pull his gun was tactical in order not to be seen pulling his gun by the perp. Now it seems from the full video that the patron overkilled the perp, which could be a problem. Still a much happier outcome than the one from the robbery in Mississippi also posted here (but erroneously identified as Georgia).

Someone leaving with their back turned is not a threat to the those in the site. Choosing to pull a weapon when the perp is turned away is morally defensible, shooting them in the back as they are leaving is not.

 

[laughing dog]

It is morally repugnant to defend his killing even if it is legal under Texas law.

The armed robber created the dangerous situation. He did that. Him.

I fail to see your point. Surely you are not arguing that anyone who creates a dangerous situation is an open target.

 

[Oleg]

It is morally repugnant to defend his killing even if it is legal under Texas law.

The armed robber created the dangerous situation. He did that. Him.

I fail to see your point. Surely you are not arguing that anyone who creates a dangerous situation is an open target.

The consequences of a dangerous situation should fall on the person creating it, not the innocent.

 

[bilby]

Your paranoid xenophobia is once again noted and derided.

Not wanting Europe to be islamicized is not "xenophobia". But I guess that is an issue for another thread. For this thread, what is important is that European cities like London, Paris (and Marseille) are not some low-crime shangri-las where people do not have an occasion to have to defend themselves.

Europe is demonstrably effective at eliminating religious beliefs, unless people are made to feel marginalised and oppressed (such as Catholics in Northern Ireland).

Religions are ideas, they don't have a genetic basis, and cannot therefore be at risk of dominating a society through high birth rates. They dominate societies through poverty, ignorance, marginalisation and tribalism.

And the issue for this thread is that London, Paris and Marseille aren't some high-crime dystopias where people are under constant threat from criminals.

The presence or absence of handguns for self-defence has, we can clearly see, very little impact on crime levels; Neither the US nor the EU has a starkly higher urban, suburban or rural crime rate than the other.

But one has a FAR higher rate of school massacres than the other.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is morally repugnant to defend his killing even if it is legal under Texas law.

The armed robber created the dangerous situation. He did that. Him.

I fail to see your point. Surely you are not arguing that anyone who creates a dangerous situation is an open target.

The consequences of a dangerous situation should fall on the person creating it, not the innocent.

Yeah, what should be verses what actually is because of real world actions that lead to real world innocent people (including children) being murdered in mass quantities always has a tendency to tarnish the word "should".

Christ, you sound like Bill Murray in the "First He Cried" sketch (starts are 8 mins or so). Bea Arthur as the NRA.

And today on Counterpoint, we discuss with the Sandy Hook families about why gun law changes "just isn't fair" for law abiding gun owners.

 

[laughing dog]

The consequences of a dangerous situation should fall on the person creating it, not the innocent.

What "consequences" are you talking about? One consequence of this situation is the robber is killed. Another possible consequence is that he is shot and disabled. Another possible consequence is that he turns to face the shooter and is killed. Another possible consequence is that he leaves wounded. Another possible consequence is that he leaves unharmed. I can go on and on but I think I made my point that your statement has virtually no effective guidance whatsoever.

 

[atrib]

Now it seems from the full video that the patron overkilled the perp, which could be a problem.

Overkilled? He put 5 rounds into the robber after he went down and was lying prone on the floor. The last of which was after the shooter had taken the gun off him. Clearly someone who had not been paying attention in a concealed carry certification class where they explain the state laws to you and advise people on how to act in self defense.

I would say the first four shots are questionable - it can be seen both ways, and it is impossible to know what was going through the shooter's mind. But he did shoot him in the back as the robber was attempting to walk away from him - that much is a fact. Shots 5 through 9, not so much. He wasn't defending anybody, he wanted tokill him. Just like the fucking cop who dumped his magazine into a prone person lying bleeding to death on the ground in Chicago, and then reloaded, and was stopped by other cops from emptying a second mag into the perp. Talk about overkill.

 

[atrib]

Semiauto means one shot per trigger pull. Same as revolvers.

No it doesn't, that is NOT what semiautomatic means. Autoloaders like the AR15, 1911, Glock 17 etc use the energy from the last cartridge to drive the ejector, feed a fresh cartridge into the breech, and put the hammer/striker pin into battery. Revolvers don't do that. Some revolvers require the shooter to manually put the hammer into battery before the hammer can be released, some can do it with a double-action mechanical trigger pull alone. Revolvers are NOT semiautomatic autoloaders.

And we're back to square one. Never used a gun, habitually makes up shit like "the AR15 is just like any other .22 caliber hunting rifle", gets educated, and still doesn't learn. Revolvers are semiautomatics. Fucking hopeless.

 

[Oleg]

Yeah, what should be verses what actually is because of real world actions that lead to real world innocent people (including children) being murdered in mass quantities always has a tendency to tarnish the word "should".

What does this have to do with knowing threating people and putting lives at risk? If you created the volatility, any adverse consequence from the volatility should fall on you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Semiauto means one shot per trigger pull. Same as revolvers.

No it doesn't, that is NOT what semiautomatic means. Autoloaders like the AR15, 1911, Glock 17 etc use the energy from the last cartridge to drive the ejector, feed a fresh cartridge into the breech, and put the hammer/striker pin into battery. Revolvers don't do that. Some revolvers require the shooter to manually put the hammer into battery before the hammer can be released, some can do it with a double-action mechanical trigger pull alone. Revolvers are NOT semiautomatic autoloaders.

And we're back to square one. Never used a gun, habitually makes up shit like "the AR15 is just like any other .22 caliber hunting rifle", gets educated, and still doesn't learn. Revolvers are semiautomatics. Fucking hopeless.

Semi-auto or double-action revolver, one pull, one bullet until the gun is empty. They're the same in the important aspects.

 

[Elixir]

Never used a gun, habitually makes up shit like "the AR15 is just like any other .22 caliber hunting rifle", gets educated, and still doesn't learn. Revolvers are semiautomatics. Fucking hopeless.

Yup. It is indeed hopeless. The poster is only one among many who have fallen victim to the obfuscations, deceptions and outright lies of the gun industry. Like this poster, they really don’t want to learn about guns. Facts might get in the way of their a priori delusions.

They're the same in the important aspects.

Not really. If you rapid fire a revolver there will be considerably more waver than would occur with a semi- auto. At least with me using them.

ETA: Once upon a time I had a roomie who owned a beautiful pearl handled long barrel Colt .22 revolver. We used to plink with it a lot. It was deadly accurate if you took your time, but I wanted to learn to “fan” six shots. Got to where I could empty the cylinder real quick, but damned if I could hit a can at 20 feet doing that.

 

[bilby]

Never used a gun, habitually makes up shit like "the AR15 is just like any other .22 caliber hunting rifle", gets educated, and still doesn't learn. Revolvers are semiautomatics. Fucking hopeless.

Yup. It is indeed hopeless. The poster is only one among many who have fallen victim to the obfuscations, deceptions and outright lies of the gun industry. Like this poster, they really don’t want to learn about guns. Facts might get in the way of their a priori delusions.

They're the same in the important aspects.

Not really. If you rapid fire a revolver there will be considerably more waver than would occur with a semi- auto. At least with me using them.

ETA: Once upon a time I had a roomie who owned a beautiful pearl handled long barrel Colt .22 revolver. We used to plink with it a lot. It was deadly accurate if you took your time, but I wanted to learn to “fan” six shots. Got to where I could empty the cylinder real quick, but damned if I could hit a can at 20 feet doing that.

Reload time is also considerably longer with a revolver.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Never used a gun, habitually makes up shit like "the AR15 is just like any other .22 caliber hunting rifle", gets educated, and still doesn't learn. Revolvers are semiautomatics. Fucking hopeless.

Yup. It is indeed hopeless. The poster is only one among many who have fallen victim to the obfuscations, deceptions and outright lies of the gun industry. Like this poster, they really don’t want to learn about guns. Facts might get in the way of their a priori delusions.

They're the same in the important aspects.

Not really. If you rapid fire a revolver there will be considerably more waver than would occur with a semi- auto. At least with me using them.

ETA: Once upon a time I had a roomie who owned a beautiful pearl handled long barrel Colt .22 revolver. We used to plink with it a lot. It was deadly accurate if you took your time, but I wanted to learn to “fan” six shots. Got to where I could empty the cylinder real quick, but damned if I could hit a can at 20 feet doing that.

Reload time is also considerably longer with a revolver.

Reload time is almost never a factor.

 

[bilby]

Never used a gun, habitually makes up shit like "the AR15 is just like any other .22 caliber hunting rifle", gets educated, and still doesn't learn. Revolvers are semiautomatics. Fucking hopeless.

Yup. It is indeed hopeless. The poster is only one among many who have fallen victim to the obfuscations, deceptions and outright lies of the gun industry. Like this poster, they really don’t want to learn about guns. Facts might get in the way of their a priori delusions.

They're the same in the important aspects.

Not really. If you rapid fire a revolver there will be considerably more waver than would occur with a semi- auto. At least with me using them.

ETA: Once upon a time I had a roomie who owned a beautiful pearl handled long barrel Colt .22 revolver. We used to plink with it a lot. It was deadly accurate if you took your time, but I wanted to learn to “fan” six shots. Got to where I could empty the cylinder real quick, but damned if I could hit a can at 20 feet doing that.

Reload time is also considerably longer with a revolver.

Reload time is almost never a factor.

It certainly is in a mass shooting.

Or had you forgotten what the topic of the thread is?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Never used a gun, habitually makes up shit like "the AR15 is just like any other .22 caliber hunting rifle", gets educated, and still doesn't learn. Revolvers are semiautomatics. Fucking hopeless.

Yup. It is indeed hopeless. The poster is only one among many who have fallen victim to the obfuscations, deceptions and outright lies of the gun industry. Like this poster, they really don’t want to learn about guns. Facts might get in the way of their a priori delusions.

They're the same in the important aspects.

Not really. If you rapid fire a revolver there will be considerably more waver than would occur with a semi- auto. At least with me using them.

ETA: Once upon a time I had a roomie who owned a beautiful pearl handled long barrel Colt .22 revolver. We used to plink with it a lot. It was deadly accurate if you took your time, but I wanted to learn to “fan” six shots. Got to where I could empty the cylinder real quick, but damned if I could hit a can at 20 feet doing that.

Reload time is also considerably longer with a revolver.

Reload time is almost never a factor.

Especially when the police feel outgunned and choose to wait out the shooter.