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Are we no better than Dogs?

Starting from page 1:
I think it's about civilization, not religion.
Humans have built a civilization. Cats and dogs have not.
They have gained some benefits of our civilization by selling their whole species' to ours.
You paint a rosy picture, but they play the role of eunuchs in our civilization.
They do our bidding and their survival and reproduction are at our whim. Even to the point of sterilization

Ramaraksha said:
THIS is the world that nature made for all life forms, including us
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NO. Nature made all life forms to fit the world.

@Ramaraksha; too many of your posts in this thread sound like you claim to know what nature intends. You are anthropomorphizing nature.

I read 4 pages before it got interesting.
I think you should have started with this post.:
Ramaraksha said:
How about if i approach this from a different View - make YOU a dog & see if you like life from THEIR view point
As I stated before the relationship started with the dog taking scraps from us and becoming our guard at night
Even today - I grew up in India - and we have lots of Feral Dogs - Dogs that live in the streets - basically they stick to one
street - the people living in these houses throw away food and the dogs fight over them
In a lot of cases, the people will feed these dogs & so the Dogs stay awake at night and warn of any unwelcome intruders
These are not pets - they are not given any names - they are basically a step below the truly wild dogs of Africa and Australia
.
Now let's picture you becoming a guard for an alien life form and his family - that was the job you applied for
Given a "salary" with which you buy food, sustain yourself
But one fine day the Alien says, you no longer have to do guard duty, you can if you like, because it is in your nature,
but it is no longer necessary - the alien has decide to make you his pet - you get to live in his huge mansion!
Free food! And since the alien is out most of the day, you get to sleep all day! No work, no worries!
And when the alien comes home, you get to play - fun, fun, fun - how wonderful!
.
Now the downside - the food is free but it is the SAME food everyday - "chicken" every day - both morning and night or 3 times a day!
You cannot go anytime you want unless the alien has a yard and there is a dog door for you
Once or twice a day, the alien will put a leash on you and take you out and you get to do your business
You better be ready to go then, if you can't and then soil the carpet inside the mansion, your alien master will get very angry with you!
Esp hard as we age, we have to go more often, but we must not anger our master, so we hold it, we have no choice
.
You are not allowed to socialize with your own kind
And even if you do, it is at the alien's pleasure - a dog park where you get to meet and chat with your friends - but whenever
the alien decides it is time, you need to go!
No such thing as falling in love, sex is controlled - you are taken to see a lady(assuming you are a man) and expected to perform
the deed! No such thing as being attracted to a certain lady - here she is, ugly, beautiful - whatever, you don't get to have an opinion
10-15 min and then it is bye-bye
So maybe sex once in a blue-moon
And if you are male, you may never know that you have had kids
If you are female, you don't get to enjoy the pleasures of motherhood for long, within a few days, all your babies will
be taken away from you & you find yourself all alone!
You are not allowed a family - you know, like what the alien has - father, mother, children, grandparents!
All the joys of family life - birthdays, graduations, other celebrations - are THEIRS, not yours
you are allowed to participate sometimes but you have no clue what is going on
.
All these joys of family life is there for your wild cousins!
THEY get to have what the alien has - falling in love with the right one, starting a family, fending for them, bringing them up!
Sex anytime they want
Go anytime they want, anywhere
Eat food that is EARNED! Not given nor begged for!
.
There is more - I bet you have never given a thought to what will happen to your dogs if you suddenly pass on
An accident, illness - whatever
The new owners may not be so kind - they can illtreat you, beat & abuse you at will - and a lot of Dogs endure this -
And there is nothing you can do about it because you can't communicate your distress to these aliens
Finally you may find yourself dumped into a shelter - your life is a small 2X4 cage!
Have you ever lived all day and months, years in a small cage, Mr. Elixir?
Maybe you should try it - see how wonderful it is!
But shelters can keep Dogs for only so long
And so one fine day these aliens decide you have lived long enough & you get to say bye-bye world
Click to expand...
YES. This is roughly what I see when I try to see the world through my cat's eyes.
After this it fell into the muck again. So I skipped to the end.

Ramaraksha said:
The vast majority are parasites?
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In their worldview that IS earning a living. That is how the world works. Hunting, killing something to eat, is just as opportunistic as sponging off someone else. Humans rape the world to 'earn a living'. Humans ARE parasites too.
 
unapologetic said:
In their worldview that IS earning a living. That is how the world works. Hunting, killing something to eat, is just as opportunistic as sponging off someone else. Humans rape the world to 'earn a living'. Humans ARE parasites too.
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^^^ Well said.
 
The self loathing human crowd? I don't buy that.

In Africa termites build large mounds. It provides a stable moderate indoors environment.

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Known as rice or white ants, the rysmiere are not even closely related to ants. They are termites, which makes them a much closer relative to the cockroach rather than the ant. These termites are found in the southern part…
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Chimps fashion stone tools to crack nuts.

Birds figured out how to put nuts on a road and have cars crack them.

Humans are not u8nque. Our combination of dexterity, brain, and articulate language allows us to do it better.

All living organisms evolve to exploit a particular environmental niche.
 
Trump: Put your nuts on the road. People are saying it gives you an advantage from the covid. (To Kennedy) And I think you're looking into that, right? Arnold Palmer did it, but of course he had nuts to spare. I shouldn't tell you this but...guys came out of the shower saying, My God, I don't believe it. Anyway, we're going to see immunity from covid at levels we've never seen before.
 
ideologyhunter said:
steve_bank said:

Feral p[et cats are a real hazard to bird populations. Feral cats act like theirr big cousins. Feral dogs form packs and figure out how to get food.
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Where I live, the feral cats are, periodically, a real problem. They go after the bird population, they scavenge, etc. The wild dogs (we have coyotes too, and sometimes I'm not sure of the difference) go after garbage and targets of opportunity, which often means domesticated pets that they encounter. They typically are malnourished, crawling with parasites, and disease ridden. Bad situation, and very little public funding to address the problem.
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Cats have not been really domesticated - they still retain their wildness - a lot of people admire that about that, I am one of them
though I love dogs better
But I am not sure Cats can survive in the North of this country & neither can dogs
Dogs unfortunately have become scavengers - they were meant to hunt in packs but dogs that get lost or are abandoned find
themselves alone without a pack and so become scavengers, die of malnutrition and the cold
THIS is what we do to our "best friend"
 
unapologetic said:
YES. This is roughly what I see when I try to see the world through my cat's eyes.
After this it fell into the muck again. So I skipped to the end.
Click to expand...
The point of the post was would you accept such a life? would you call it fair?
Basically it is the life of a slave - a good life for most, maybe, but still a dependent, slave life
unapologetic said:
Ramaraksha said:
The vast majority are parasites?
Click to expand...
In their worldview that IS earning a living. That is how the world works. Hunting, killing something to eat, is just as opportunistic as sponging off someone else. Humans rape the world to 'earn a living'. Humans ARE parasites too.
Click to expand...
A parasite to me would be a mosquito, a tick
And there are yes-men, sycophants, cronies who surround the rich & powerful, do their bidding, sing their praises and live the
good life sponging off them - we see it here in the US with many movie and music stars with their hangers-on
And then we have supporters of the likes of Putin - instant billionaires based on their support
.
I am sorry but I don't consider myself a parasite - I have worked hard all my life, always paid my own way
A parasite would be someone who lives off the fruits of labors of others - that is not how the vast majority of life forms live
 
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Ramaraksha said:
dogs that get lost or are abandoned find
themselves alone without a pack and so become scavengers, die of malnutrition and the cold
THIS is what we do to our "best friend"
Click to expand...
Mate, this is what we do to other humans too.

Try googling "homelessness crisis" sometime.
 
southernhybrid said:
https://www.dogster.com/dog-health-care/when-can-puppies-live-without-their-mother
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Puppies learn critical socialization skills from their mothers, siblings, and their breeders. Socialization occurs in puppies from about 6 weeks to 14 weeks of age. This time is of the utmost importance in the development of every puppy. They take in and learn a great deal of information about the world. The behaviors and personalities that emerge during this time will stay with them for the rest of their lives. It’s at this age that they also form strong attachments with the people looking after them.

Therefore, puppies need to be exposed to as many new situations, people, different environments, and other animals as much and as safely as possible. Socialization will have a significant impact on the puppy’s bond with their families, self-confidence, and behavior.
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The average age when puppies are weaned from their mother’s milk is about 3 to 5 weeks. Puppies need to nurse from their mothers until the natural weaning process occurs, which is a stressful event for puppies.

They should not be sent to their new homes until they have been completely weaned and are eating solid food. The unfortunate side effect of removing a puppy that hasn’t been adequately weaned is an anxious and insecure adult dog.

Behavior​

Puppies learn valuable lessons from their siblings as another aspect of socialization. When they are about 3 to 5 weeks old, they are not only learning about the world, but they are also learning about communication and play behaviors with other dogs.
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What Happens If a Puppy Leaves Their Mother Too Late?​

Toy breed puppies tend to stay longer with their mothers, whereas large breed puppies shouldn’t be kept for much longer than 9 to 10 weeks. If they are kept any longer, they can start to develop submissive or dominant behaviors that can lead to problems in the future.

Large breeds grow quickly, are quite strong, and can become extremely rambunctious. This can make taking care of your new puppy quite difficult because you’ll need to know how to deal with this large, overly excited animal. It’s easier to form a strong bond with a large puppy at 8 to 10 weeks of age rather than one at 12
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There ya go. You don't even have to read an entire book to learn about when dogs are ready to leave their mothers and the negative impact of staying with her for too long. Doggies dads don't even hang around after getting the mom pregnant. Dogs learn some good behaviors from mom, but then are ready to find a good home with humans. Not that I expect a certain person to read this, but one can hope.....

I guess we could have asked to have this thread moved to the "all things dogs" thread, since it's more about dogs than anything else.
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What happens to them in the wild? These dogs seem to do fine living with their families - not just Dogs but Wolves as well, their ancestors
Who decided that X number of weeks is enough for Dogs to live with their mother & then to be given away?
In human terms would you be ok with giving up your child after say a year or two?
WE get to mother our children even when they get old - in fact, more young adults are staying home because of the
high cost of rents etc or simply because they like to be home
Do you get to decide what people should or should not do?
.
"This can make taking care of your new puppy quite difficult because you’ll need to know how to deal with this large, overly excited animal.
THIS is the problem!
IT should not be our job! WE created this problem because we made them our pets and we say we will do whatever
we want because well, taking care of them is inconvenient for us
The Dog did not ask us to take care of it - it belongs in the wild!
There should not be any Pets
We see Dogs in the wild living, hunting, having families - that is the natural order of things
That is the way God or Nature intended them to live
.
WE changed the dynamic - now we made them our helpless dependents
We made them disposable animals - when it is inconvenient for us, we dispose of them
WE decide that the mother dog can enjoy motherhood for only X number of weeks
But of course if we do that to a HUMAN mother, that is cruel, inhumane!
Amazing how blind we are!
.
BTW this post was not about Dogs but to serve as an example as how humans
have created religions and Heavens where they are helpless dependents sponging off of God
 
bilby said:
Ramaraksha said:
dogs that get lost or are abandoned find
themselves alone without a pack and so become scavengers, die of malnutrition and the cold
THIS is what we do to our "best friend"
Click to expand...
Mate, this is what we do to other humans too.

Try googling "homelessness crisis" sometime.
Click to expand...
I am sorry the comparison is not apt
The better comparison with what we do to Dogs is like abducting a child
locking that child up in a home, giving him/her food and taking care of it
And then one fine day, kicking that child out
Not learning the skills to fend for themselves, such children become scavengers
.
Homeless people become scavengers because well loss of a job, illness etc
No one did this to them - some of it is their own fault, some others
But what is happening to these Dogs, completely our fault
 
WAB said:
Learner said:
I've eaten dog cooked in an earth-oven..
..sorry folks.
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How were the tails? I usually find them a bit gnarly.
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Never went for the tails, it looked like just as you describe. Ist time was the curiosity. It would of been the last time, so I thought, I mean...what can you do if it's offered to you by the locals and you're a guest?

Forgive me dog lovers.
 
bilby said:
Indeed. And our "natural state", as defined at the same point in pre-history, is to live a nomadic existence, with few tools or possessions, constantly at the ragged edge of survival and subject to famine and hardship at every turn.

"Natural - Unnatural" is an axis orthogonal to "Good - Bad"; Knowing how "natural" something is tells us exactly nothing about how good that thing is.

Dogs and humans teamed up early on in the prehistory of both species, and that has been a good thing for both.

Humans and dogs now live comfortable and luxurious lives. Not all of them, obviously; But many. Probably most, by comparison to the "natural" state their distant ancestors suffered.

Neither I nor my dog expect to go hungry if the rains fail.
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Natural would mean working to put food on the table, a roof over our heads
We see that in all nature - even grass eating animals work - when one grassland is overgrazed they move to another
Of course predatory animals have to hunt for food
We too were hunters, then discovered agriculture
Our work has changed over the years but even now unless we work, earn a paycheck, we will starve
.
"dogs now live comfortable and luxurious lives"
I have written extensively about what life is like for a dog - it is not a good one
One example of a mother dog that sees its young taken away from it after a few weeks
What if that happens to you? Your child taken away from you after a few weeks?
Would you not call it cruel, inhumane?
 
Ramaraksha said:
ideologyhunter said:
steve_bank said:

Feral p[et cats are a real hazard to bird populations. Feral cats act like theirr big cousins. Feral dogs form packs and figure out how to get food.
Click to expand...
Where I live, the feral cats are, periodically, a real problem. They go after the bird population, they scavenge, etc. The wild dogs (we have coyotes too, and sometimes I'm not sure of the difference) go after garbage and targets of opportunity, which often means domesticated pets that they encounter. They typically are malnourished, crawling with parasites, and disease ridden. Bad situation, and very little public funding to address the problem.
Click to expand...
Cats have not been really domesticated - they still retain their wildness - a lot of people admire that about that, I am one of them
though I love dogs better
But I am not sure Cats can survive in the North of this country & neither can dogs
Dogs unfortunately have become scavengers - they were meant to hunt in packs but dogs that get lost or are abandoned find
themselves alone without a pack and so become scavengers, die of malnutrition and the cold
THIS is what we do to our "best friend"
Click to expand...

It’s obvious from this post you are not interested in learning anything or haveing a good-faith exchange of ideas.

Again, dogs were not “meant” to do anything. They just happened to cp-evolve with us to form a symbiotic relationship. If things had gone a little differently, we would not have so co-evolved. There are plenary of symbiotic relationships in nature.

WE did NOTHING to our “best friend.” By evolutionary chance alone, we co-evolved to form a symbiotic relationship.
 
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