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At least 8 dead in Mass Shooting du Jour

Carrying a weapon in one’s house is not equivalent to carrying on openly in public,
He wasn't just carrying it around the house, he specifically armed himself to answer the door when the deputy clearly identified himself.
Both parties made mistakes in this tragic
He was in his house, not outside. Equating that to openly carrying a firearm in public is rhetorical excess.

As a general rule, should people walk around their house with a firearm? No.

As a general rule, should police officers get to blow people away because they are scared? No.

Unless there is evidence this victim actually threatened this officer, he should end up doing hard time for a decent stretch.
 
Carrying a weapon in one’s house is not equivalent to carrying on openly in public,
He wasn't just carrying it around the house, he specifically armed himself to answer the door when the deputy clearly identified himself.
Both parties made mistakes in this tragic encounter. It cost one his life, it may cost the other his freedom or job.
He specifically armed himself, with a totally legal weapon, to answer the door under dangerous circumstances.
And was shot by the cops.

I'm not a supporter of BLM or anything like that. But the bottom line is the cops messed up in a lethal way and
Yeah, this is one of those reasons that BLM don't like cops.
Tom
 
He specifically armed himself, with a totally legal weapon, to answer the door under dangerous circumstances.
And was shot by the cops.
I'm not a supporter of BLM or anything like that. But the bottom line is the cops messed up in a lethal way and
Yeah, this is one of those reasons that BLM don't like cops.
Tom
The deputy announced himself. Did Fortson not hear that? Or why did he arm himself?
In any case, I think both parties made mistakes. Fortson should not have come to the door armed, and the deputy should have given him time to drop the weapon.

I do not think this had anything to do with race. White people get shot under similar circumstances. A white teenager was shot in Georgia when he answered the door not even holding a gun, but a wii controller.
 
The deputy announced himself.
I don't believe everyone who says something, especially when it makes no sense.

Why would Fortson believe that it was just an innocent mistake by the locals? Therefore he should not arm himself?
I can't think of one.

I don't have a gun, but if I did I would bring it to that door under those circumstances.
Tom
 
He was in his house, not outside. Equating that to openly carrying a firearm in public is rhetorical excess.
The doorway is the liminal space between inside and outside. I also think there is a difference between carrying openly (where legal) by having a handgun holstered on your hip or a rifle slung around your shoulder. Holding a weapon in your hand, ready to fire, is a different level, don't you think?
As a general rule, should police officers get to blow people away because they are scared? No.
As I said, both made mistakes. The deputy should have given Fortson time to drop his weapon.
Unless there is evidence this victim actually threatened this officer, he should end up doing hard time for a decent stretch.
Whether he committed a crime will be determined during investigation and possibly at trial.
However, showing up at the door with a firearm in hand constitutes a level of threat. That's why the deputy was certainly justified to draw his weapon and demand that Fortson drop his. He should have not fired as quickly as he did, and the case will hinge on that.
 
I don't believe everyone who says something, especially when it makes no sense.
Why doesn't it make sense? There are several reasons why a deputy might be knocking on my door.
Why would Fortson believe that it was just an innocent mistake by the locals? Therefore he should not arm himself?
I can't think of one.
It could be a mistake, it could be that the deputy is serving him with a lawsuit, it could be that the deputy is canvassing the neighborhood about another crime, it could be that the building is being evacuated for whatever reason. Why automatically assume somebody is meaning him harm?
I don't have a gun, but if I did I would bring it to that door under those circumstances.
Tom
I will miss you. :(
 
I don't believe everyone who says something, especially when it makes no sense.
Why doesn't it make sense? There are several reasons why a deputy might be knocking on my door.
Why would Fortson believe that it was just an innocent mistake by the locals? Therefore he should not arm himself?
I can't think of one.
It could be a mistake, it could be that the deputy is serving him with a lawsuit, it could be that the deputy is canvassing the neighborhood about another crime, it could be that the building is being evacuated for whatever reason. Why automatically assume somebody is meaning him harm?
I don't have a gun, but if I did I would bring it to that door under those circumstances.
Tom
I will miss you. :(
The question was "Why would Fortson answer the door with a gun?'
I can think of a bunch of reasons.
Tom
 
I have shot an AR15. At a gun range. I have never owned one, however.
So you have never owned any of these guns; you have never carried any of these guns as part of your job duties; you have never been trained to use these guns in any kind of formal or informal setting; you have never used these guns for hunting or recreation, other than shooting an AR15 at a range one time; you have never practiced any kind of tactical drills using these guns; an up until recently you were apparently not aware of the differences between a nineteenth century .22 caliber cartridge like the 22 Short, 22 Long, 22 Long Rifle, and a more modern .223 Remington cartridge. Yes, I followed up on Elixir's comment and reviewed your posting history on the subject. Forgive me for being so blunt, but you know nothing about these guns, or firearms in general. I don't know where you are getting your information, perhaps playing Call of Duty or similar games in mommy's basement, and casually dropping terms like "bump stock" and and "Glock switch" to appear to speak with authority on the subject, authority you do not possess. You appear to believe that your experience playing Call of Duty supersedes the opinions of a person who has extensive experience hunting with, and later training with, carrying and fighting with these military rifles. Your assertion that the deletion of a full-auto sear from civilian AR15 style rifles makes it a completely different weapon is ridiculous. It is difficult to control the M16 in full-auto, you run out of ammo very quickly when using the gun this way, you might only be carrying 3 or 4 extra magazines, and you don't have the luxury of reloading the magazines while engaged in combat. For full auto we carried M60 machine guns, with everyone carrying extra belts to feed the beasts. And lots of grenades, which were far more effective at taking out fortified enemy positions and stopping assaults than our rifles.

The M16A1 is a deadly weapon, just as the modern derivations of the AR15 platform based on the M14 and M16 platforms are. The M16 can do enormous damage to soft human bodies and can penetrate body armor and even light skinned APC armor using the steel tip/core bullets we used. Much more so than the 45 auto cartridges in our 1911A sidearm. The modern Ar15 platform rifles and carbines available to the general public are just as devastatingly lethal, and better designed to the task of killing humans than the rifles we carried (our M16A1 rifles were prone to misfeeds caused by a poorly designed extractor).

I checked out my daughter's Mini 14 over the weekend. Its a nice gun, and feels like a scaled down M1 or M14 in my hands (I qualified with the M14 at Parris Island in 1967 and was issued my first M16 about a year later in Okinawa). The Ruger can be just as devastating in the hands of a professional operator, but it is no AR15. Which is why you don't see law enforcement carrying Mini 14s or bolt action rifles designed for hunting, they carry AR15s. According to my daughter who shoots AR15 rifles in competition - "you buy a Mini 14 to go plinking two or three times a year, you buy an AR15 if you are a professional operator and carry it every day". My daughter is a better shooter than the NCOs who trained us at the rifle range in the Corps, and her opinion carries a lot of weight with me. The Mini 14 is a very different gun from the M16/AR15 and is designed for a completely different purpose.
100% on all of this.

When I joined the forums, I'm pretty sure for the first time (not sure if I spent any time here prior to 2007 but I don't think so), I pointed this out, and have on several occasions since, that the stock design, pistol grip, and a number of other features of the M16 and suitably similar platforms make it more ergonomic specifically for use against human targets.

Repeatedly Derec has vehemently rejected this under a variety of excuses.

My experience was as a veteran, discussing the stability and the function of wrist angle on its viability to shoot from various positions: a standard stock without pistol grip has more than enough stability for prone shooting or target shooting, but IMO its garbage for quick aiming and response in chaotic environments; when holding a rod perpendicular to the barrel, you get more leverage on the muzzle than when holding parallel to the barrel.

Above and beyond this, the powder load just does not compare. Compared to a 22lr, a .223 NATO round is a fucking horse cock compared to a squirrel dick.

A suitably thick leather jacket will stop a 22 bullet, whereas my full ballistic vest won't reliably stop a .223 with a steel penetrator!

Your daughter is absolutely correct, in that a .223 NATO load is for operators, though to be fair I would much prefer any of the half-stroke piston variants of the M16 similar family for actual warfare because they're just way easier to clean and way more reliable
 
The deputy announced himself. Did Fortson not hear that? Or why did he arm himself?
Maybe because the deputy intentionally hid himself from being viewed through the peephole, making the victim suspicious.
 
The only time I have had to treat gunshot wounds in the ED was in the 70's when I was working on my residency in Boston. High powered rifle wounds were rare in those days, and we would primarily see wounds from handguns. In my practice as an attending, I would get called in to the ED for a hematology consult once in a while, to review blood workups and such as part of surgical prep, but I wasn't part of the trauma team.
Despite the frothing at the mouth by the gun grabbers rifles remain way down there on the list of murder weapons. The threat is the severity * the frequency, arguing the severity is high ignores the fact that the frequency is low.
 
Again we must talk about 53% of gun deaths are suicide.
Red flag law? Better mental health care?
Red Flag isn't an answer--you'll likely end up precipitating the suicide rather than helping.

And we need to look at causes of suicide.
According to the statistics... guns.
No. Guns are the means, not the cause.
Odd, didn't know cause of death are listed as 'self inflicted suicide'
You see the cause of death listed as suicide. The matter of death is self inflicted gunshot.

You address the problem by dealing with the causes of suicide, not by trying to remove one method.

One was clearly for medical reasons--there's nothing the medical system could have done to change the fact that she was going to spend what little life she had left laying in bed. She chose not to. The second was elderly, she had managed alienate everyone near her except for her husband and then he died. The relationship is distant enough and she drove everyone away long enough ago that I wasn't even aware of her existence. Is there anything society could have done to improve her situation? I doubt it. (And that's not even considering the low opinion of mental health care in China.)
Well, there we go. The only two suicides that Loren is aware of, weren't that bad. Wanna tackle homelessness next?
I'm saying that in neither of those was there anything that society could have done to make them not want death.
So you don't want to tackle homelessness?

I do look forward to your book coming out soon, The Power of Anecdotal Evidence.
I didn't say anything about not tackling homelessness. Rather, that it's irrelevant to the situation.
 
Derec knows why there is an effort to affect AR15 ownership. It’s because it has NO PURPOSE that is good. So even thought it is not the majority number of crimes, it is worth addressing becaus there’s not argument *for* them. Can we a least get rid of the guns that we don;t need? You can’t hunt with them, and they are terrible for self defense.

Why does derec so desperately want them to proliferate?
Why do you say it serves no purpose?

A light rifle is probably the best home defense weapon out there for older people. Furthermore, small, fast bullets are prone to shattering on the first barrier and are less likely to punch through than bigger, slower bullets.
 
He was in his house, not outside. Equating that to openly carrying a firearm in public is rhetorical excess.
The doorway is the liminal space between inside and outside. I also think there is a difference between carrying openly (where legal) by having a handgun holstered on your hip or a rifle slung around your shoulder. Holding a weapon in your hand, ready to fire, is a different level, don't you think?
Inside your house? Not really.
 
So what? I do not deny that they are powerful guns. I am just pointing out the fact that these guns are rarely used in crime, and that therefore the monomaniacal obsession with banning them is misguided and only wastes political capital. You have not been able to debunk that (since it is true) and so you instead focus on who has carried what at their job.
It's not a monomaniacal obsession. Everytime you bring up handguns in comparison AR type weapons most all of us agree there should be limits on those also.
This is an important point, thanks for posting. Yes, Derec knows, as he has been told scores of times, that poster also want better control on handguns. Derec has read me posting many times all the controls I would like to see that primarily help against handguns in inner city crime. I’ll say them again because he never acknowledges this:

1. Actionable auditing of every single seller of firearms. Eliminate the ability of sellers to shrug and say hundreds of guns were “stolen” or be unable to produce buyer records. This audit information goes into a federal database. If you want to sell guns, you are required to make sure you are not the one handing them to criminals. Federal government should know exactly who is selling firearms, and that their inventory is audited.
And your evidence that such things are happening?
2. Make absolutely certain that all confiscated guns are marked and made inoperable, so that police can’t plant them. This is necessary if we want to do #3
Won't work. If they need plant guns they could get them by other means.
3. Make the penalties for having a firearm in public severe enough that no one will casually carry them around. It would require deliberate criminality to have one. This makes even printed guns a risk to carry around.
Not needed. Get rid of the nonsense called constitutional carry. And make permits required for all carry, not merely concealed.

The reality is that permit holders have a very low crime rate, there's no need to prohibit it. The criminals don't have permits now, your change isn't going to make any meaningful difference.

4. Mount federal research into biometric safety in guns, and fuck the pushback of the NRA. There is a technology solution here.
Faith-based "logic" detected. So far nobody has demonstrated a biometric system with either the speed or accuracy required. Simple test: I went to YouTube and started looking for video actually demonstrating a rapid draw from concealment. The first video that qualified is 30fps, the time from when his hand first touches the gun to muzzle flash is 10 frames. That means your system has to figure out it's the authorized shooter in about 1/4 second. I think it's more like 8 frames from when his fingers are wrapped around the butt of the gun. Due to motion blur and an adverse orientation I can't determine how many frames his finger is on the trigger but it is at most 4. What's your sensor technique? Why is there nothing remotely comparable on the market for any use?

These alone would make a significant impact on handgun crime, mis-use and suicide.
I don't even see any faith-based logic here--why would anything on your list have any effect on suicide?

I’ve said it many times. Derec has plenty of information to know that his claim of “monomaniacal obsession” is flat out wrong and seeks to paint a false picture of other posters.
You're not demonstrating a reasoned argument.
 
Nobody uses a deer rifle to kill school kids. Try again.
Few people use rifles to kill people, period. More people get killed using knives, blunt objects and even "hands, fists and feet" than with rifles.

Now, some school shooters and the like have used AR15-style rifles to commit their dastardly acts. Mostly because of the cool factor, I think. But if those rifles were not available, do you think they would have shrugged and given up? Or would they have used another type of rifle or maybe some handguns?

We just marked the 25th anniversary of the Columbine shooting. That shooting took place during the so-called "assault weapon" ban. And yet they managed to find effective weapons - a couple of shotguns, and a couple of 9x19mm carbines. No 5.56x45s are needed for serious carnage.
Yup, when addressing a threat it's not X vs !X. Rather, it's X vs the next best option. You don't put a bank vault door on your house next to a glass window. Or even a typical wall--I'm sure I could get through our walls (stucco over wood framing) with a hammer and tinsnips. There's utterly no point in door or window defenses tougher than that.
 
Come on! You’ve obviously never been attacked by a grocery sack before.
While Rosenbaum did throw a bag at Ritt, he also cornered him and tried to grab his rifle. Hence, justified shooting due to self defense.

The amount of half-truths, distortions and outright lies still being spread in this case is ridiculous. Anything from the "crossed state lines" trope to reversing victim and offender when it comes to who chased down whom.
The problem with the Rittenhouse case is what happened off camera. The camera only shows part of the picture--if the off-camera part had Rittenhouse threatening with his gun then self defense goes out the window. And I think that's what probably happened--but I wouldn't be willing to say so beyond a reasonable doubt which is the standard the law requires.

Would I find him guilty in a civil trial? Certainly.
 
Carrying a weapon in one’s house is not equivalent to carrying on openly in public,
He wasn't just carrying it around the house, he specifically armed himself to answer the door when the deputy clearly identified himself.
Both parties made mistakes in this tragic encounter. It cost one his life, it may cost the other his freedom or job.
He specifically armed himself, with a totally legal weapon, to answer the door under dangerous circumstances.
And was shot by the cops.

I'm not a supporter of BLM or anything like that. But the bottom line is the cops messed up in a lethal way and
Yeah, this is one of those reasons that BLM don't like cops.
Tom
The system messed up in a lethal way. I'll blame both sides here.

The cop was using their standard anti-ambush approach, the intent being to deny the occupants information as to where the cop is but also providing no way for the occupant to verify it was a cop.

But the guy also screwed up--if you feel there's a threat at the door that warrants a gun why in the world are you answering the door in the first place? The only reason I can see to answer the door armed is if you can see something that might or might not be legit.

I can see one thing that could be done pretty easily to improve matters: Take another number akin to 911, but it's a robot. If your phone is registered to an address and is possibly located at that address (it's within the uncertainty) then the robot answers "There is a cop there"/"There is a cop nearby"/"No cop is there". If it's not at home you get the "there is a cop there" if the police have initiated a traffic stop on a vehicle registered to your name or address. The others are just based on coordinates. It provides department and purpose if the robot has been informed--and any sort of planned action would require informing the robot.
 
A light rifle is probably the best home defense weapon out there for older people.
A ban on civilian ownership of firearms for self or home defence is probably the best way to enhance public safety for any modern industrialised society.

A baseball bat is a FAR superior home defence weapon, on a huge number of levels. Not least the unlikelihood that an attempt to use it against an intruder, is going to accidentally kill a family member or bystander who is on the other side of a wall.
 
I'm sure I could get through our walls (stucco over wood framing) with a hammer and tinsnips. There's utterly no point in door or window defenses tougher than that.
...unless you plan to start shooting rifle bullets, and want to have at least some clue about where they will end up, when you do.
 
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