Barbaric

[Toni]

The base of the problem is there is no simple, clean, and easy way to kill a person. We have spent the past couple centuries trying to invent one. Decapitation had been the standard and it was quick and easy, but definitely not clean, even when done by a machine and not an ax. Hanging(with the intention of quick death), electrocution(a word coined to describe the process) and poison gas, are all fairly modern. The advantage of decapitation and hanging is it's pretty much a one man operation. The rope maker or the ax maker are far removed from the process. The problem with lethal injection is the pharmaceutical companies who are asked to supply the injectable don't want to be associated with using drugs which kill people, for obvious reasons. It becomes a supply chain problem. This leads to amateur chemists, most with a high school education having to concoct a lethal potion. Things like LD50 and body mass are not the sort of thing covered in 11th grade science classes. There's no practical way to test anything, so the results can be unexpected.

I don't agree with portions of your post. We see a simple, clean, and easy way to kill a person/people in the news all the time, fentanyl/opiates. It's lethal at small doses, has multiple options for low tech delivery and apparently the US has abundant quantities (probably in every state with execution) not tied to pharmaceutical co.

Drug overdose deaths often are preceded by convulsions which give witnesses the heebie jeebies.

For some reason, the Founding Fathers put the phrase "cruel and unusual" in the Constitution. This eliminated impaling, breaking on the wheel, and, drawing and quartering, which were unusual punishments, reserved for the most deserved. If everyone is treated the same, nothing unusual about it. This leaves the very vague concept of cruel. The fight to eliminate Capitol punishment has always pivoted on the idea that there is no non-cruel way to kill a person, even if the cruelty consists only of them knowing they will soon die.

The fight against the death penalty has also involved the inequity of who is sentenced to death, with persons of color being far more likely to receive the death penalty for similar offenses for which white people received lesser sentences.

It isn't race. It's money. The justice system is strongly biased against the poor.

And the notoriety of the crime matters.

Money and notoriety play roles, of course.

Race and money are still very much linked. And yes, because of systemic racism that has benefited you and me.

Race | Death Penalty Information Center

Use of the death penalty has always reflected racial bias: the data show that who is prosecuted, sentenced, and executed depends heavily on race.

deathpenaltyinfo.org

In 82% of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks.

- United States General Accounting Office, Death Penalty Sentencing, February 1990

 

[DBT]

What is the point of executing prisoners who may have spent decades on death row? They don't pose a threat to society and have not done so for a long time. A matter of principle? Seen to be carrying out justice? Does it even set a good example ethically?

 

[spikepipsqueak]

No.

 

[Bronzeage]

What is the point of executing prisoners who may have spent decades on death row? They don't pose a threat to society and have not done so for a long time. A matter of principle? Seen to be carrying out justice? Does it even set a good example ethically?

You won't meet a lot of moral philosophers in the Republican Party. Executing a person who has spent decades in prison is a performative act. They want to appear to be tough on crime, while happily overlooking a President who will pardon anyone who has a million dollars.

In their view, it was a liberal Supreme Court which made it so difficult to impose the death penalty, so killing someone who is no longer a threat to anyone is just another act of "owning the libs". There's not a lot more thought put than that. As I said, no moral philosophers.

 

[Tharmas]

I was unclear. It seems he was on his deathbed and requested a dose of a particular amount, and the Mrs obliged, and gave a second dose an hour later. That was around noon. Huxley expired about five hours later. She wrote an account of that day called This Timeless Moment.

That makes sense. 6000 doses does not.
Thinking further I’d estimate that I ingested about 25-30 mg
(100-120 ‘normal’doses) that one time. Had I not been already very familiar with the effects, it could have been a very bad experience.

Eloxer, O'm not sure what "mg" refers to in your post. Is it mcg or something else?

 

[Elixir]

not sure what "mg" refers to in your post.

Milligrams.

 

[Tharmas]

not sure what "mg" refers to in your post.

Milligrams.

That makes sense then. I'm used to seeing LSD doses in mcg. I once accidentally took 10 mg with no ill effects. We used to consider 1000 mcg to be a standard dose. I once had the experience of helping to load 2 grams of LSD on to 2000 vitamin C tablets. That's when I accidentally consumed 10 mg. I actually didn't realize I was stoned for about 8 hours until I got a look at my pupils in a mirror. The chemist, who didn't make the stuff - he had a license to experiment with it, and it was supplied by the government - gave me a sedative so I could sleep. As far as I know there is no lethal dose for LSD, unlike speed or liqueur.

 

[Tharmas]

Speaking of Barbaric, I just read in my WaPo feed that Hegseth has not only authorized the execution of the man whose name I can't recall, the one who shot up Fort Hood a few years ago and killed a number of soldiers, but he has authorized the execution by firing squad. Just to add a little moire barbarism, hew wants to live stream it.

 

[dendrast]

What about inert gas, Nitrogen, Argon?

It's been used in some states. What we need is a substance that kills a person and doesn't cause spasms, convulsions, or other physical signs of distress. Inhaling pure nitrogen or argon causes unconsciousness in a few seconds, but it takes quite a while to die. It seems a person lying unconscious on a gurney burns oxygen very slowly. The nitrogen is basically a sedative which allows the person to asphyxiate. Eventually lack if oxygen in muscle cells cause a few last futile contractions. The brain has long since stopped functioning on any level, but it looks unseemly.

The whole thing about Carbon Monoxide is that displaces Oxygen in the bloodstream very aggressively. I don't know if it's more effective that pure Nitrogen though.
I still think that capital punishment is a barbarism. Being locked up in jail for the rest of my life would be the ultimate. Especially if the only thing on TV was a channel of the collected speeches of Donald Trump. Clockwork Orange punishment.

 

[dendrast]

Some guys are ideally suited to prison life. Guys who like to fight, who are exceptionally good at it, guys who enjoy being something of a cock of the walk, who feel some kind of prestige being dominant in a closed society. And various other types who seem to be more at home on the inside, who can't deal with the existential pressures of freedom and having to support oneself.

The American prison system (including county jails and detention centers, some of which are worse places and more dangerous than prisons), is absolutely corrupt. It rewards the worst of people by giving them an environment swelling with victims who cannot escape; and its most fearful punishments are left to the milder and weaker people. Weakness, emotionalism, fear, anxiety, are all the kiss of death behind bars. The whole thing is a fucking nightmare.

Which is exactly NOT ME. There is a show I watched pretty regularly on a true crime channel I get called Lockup. A sort of reality/documentary series with real prisoners' life behind bars at various prisons around the country. Some of the stuff that goes on is pretty disturbing. I can't imagine having to put up with that for decades. I would honestly kill myself before I even stepped inside, if I didn't get the death penalty for whatever it was I did.

Jails are full of riff-raff. If they don't kill you, you'll probably die of boredom.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

My mum had a jokey plan for when I was grown up and off her hands.

Commit some "victimless" crime that would get her 20 years. A financial crime would do it. "They" value money more than people. Go into jail, where food and lodging are provided. Read, when not working at some task.

Die before they kick you out.

I can see her logic if you can guarantee not getting shivved. Ideally, you work in the library.

 

[thebeave]

My mum had a jokey plan for when I was grown up and off her hands.

Commit some "victimless" crime that would get her 20 years. A financial crime would do it. "They" value money more than people. Go into jail, where food and lodging are provided. Read, when not working at some task.

Die before they kick you out.

I can see her logic if you can guarantee not getting shivved. Ideally, you work in the library.

That's funny, I've often thought the same thing... that jail could be a good retirement plan, if you're somewhat destitute. Commit some non-violent white collar crime when you're elderly and you've lost your zest for travel, wine, women and song but are content to live out a simple, routine life. Hopefully, you'll get into one of those cushy white collar "prisons" for non-violent offenders. What's not to like? Free food, free healthcare, place to sleep, TV, a job if you want one, excercise time out in the yard. Maybe they'll even give you a cat to hang out with!

 

[aupmanyav]

Maybe they'll even give you a cat to hang out with!

It is a great waste of Public money. I think the inmates should be asked to pay for their upkeep.

 

[DBT]

How are they to earn the money to pay for their upkeep?

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Don't know for sure, but I thought there was some pay for the work people do in prison. It pays for small luxuries.

 

[WAB]

Maybe they'll even give you a cat to hang out with!

It is a great waste of Public money. I think the inmates should be asked to pay for their upkeep.

In the land of Arizona, you have to pay to be in jail:

Copilot Search Branding

Do You Have to Pay to Be in Jail in Arizona?

Yes — in Arizona, you can be charged incarceration costs for state prison or county jail time, but the amount and who pays depends on the type of offense, the facility, and your ability to pay.

State Prison Costs

Under Arizona Revised Statutes § 31‑238, the Arizona Department of Corrections sets an annual cost of incarceration for anyone convicted in state court and committed to the state prison system

This cost reflects the actual state spending for the prisoner and is prorated for sentences of 334 days or less.

Time served before conviction counts toward the calculation.

The state can set off this cost against any claim or monetary obligation you owe, except 20% of any claim is exempt

If you win a monetary judgment against the state, part of the incarceration cost can be deducted from that judgment


County Jail Costs

For misdemeanor convictions in county jail, A.R.S. § 13‑804.01 requires the court to order you to reimburse the political subdivision (county) for incarceration costs

The court can set the amount based on the per‑diem cost of incarceration and your ability to pay.

These costs are typically per day and can be significant; for example, Maricopa County’s 2026–27 rates are $702.56 booking fee plus $145.86 per day for housing...

I can get a decent motel room for less than that per day. The fine and incarceration system in the US has become not only a moneymaking racket, but a system purposely designed so that the strong can and will exploit the weak. The actual intent of jail and prison time is that the most violent offenders will have an environment that literally enables the very behavior that may have gotten them locked up in the first place; and contrarily, that the meekest of people will be the most traumatised and endangered.

Most Americans literally do find that acceptable, and make light humor about it. Of course there are rotten prison systems in other countries, but this is the one I live in.

 

[aupmanyav]

In the land of Arizona, you have to pay to be in jail:

I think that is fair. In India, 500 people with death sentences and 71,632 people with life sentences. Why should tax payers support them? Send them to gallows.

 

[aupmanyav]

The actual intent of jail and prison time is that the most violent offenders will have an environment that literally enables the very behavior that may have gotten them locked up in the first place; and contrarily, that the meekest of people will be the most traumatised and endangered.

What a utopian thought and why should people wait for years for may happen or may not! Here people even on bail (whatever you call it in US) rape and murder.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Don't know for sure, but I thought there was some pay for the work people do in prison. It pays for small luxuries.

I believe it's how a state wants to treat their incarcerated, if a purposeful life and rehabilitation are a consideration.
Prison Blues
But that's just Oregon.

 

[DBT]

In the land of Arizona, you have to pay to be in jail:

I think that is fair. In India, 500 people with death sentences and 71,632 people with life sentences. Why should tax payers support them? Send them to gallows.

Shouldn't we be better than those that we imprison? If, ethically, we say that killing for reasons other than self defence (immediate threat) is wrong, that killing is not a solution for our problems, why would it be right for us as a society to kill those who we feel are a problem?