Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

[dannyk]

Ahmaud Arbery was a thief. Deal with it!

I think this is a superficial classification and doesn't really help anything. I stole chocolates from my Mum's handbag when I was five. And I am admitting this on Mother's Day!

 

[ruby sparks]

The "threat" from the guys with the guns was jail, not physical harm.

W.T.F?

You're a disgrace.

 

[Arctish]

***ETA: I see that your article says he was convicted of shoplifting a TV from WalMart. That would explain the McMichael's suspicions but it still doesn't make what they did legal. It's still aggravated assault and felony murder. Anyway, thanks for providing a place to start looking for more information.

I'm surprised you still appear to have absolute certainty about what happened when you've acknowledged that he's corrected you. This whole thread is confirmation bias and everyone needs to step back and wait for the facts.

The fact is the Georgia Bureau of Investigation found sufficient evidence to arrest Greg and Travis McMichael on charges of aggravated assault and felony murder. The video we saw and the parts of the police report that were released are solid evidence those two crimes were committed and there is no doubt who committed them.

I linked to information on how Georgia defines those situations in this post. Other posters and several linked articles have pointed out that the only way the McMichaels' armed pursuit and confrontation of Arbery would have been lawful would be if they had actually seen Arbery committing a crime right before they got their guns and went after him. They didn't see a crime being committed so they had no legal grounds for attempting to detain him.

Arbery's prior interactions with the McMichaels explains why they decided to pursue him. It does not make their choice a good one. It does not make their actions lawful. It does not make his death something other than felony murder.

 

[dannyk]

***ETA: I see that your article says he was convicted of shoplifting a TV from WalMart. That would explain the McMichael's suspicions but it still doesn't make what they did legal. It's still aggravated assault and felony murder. Anyway, thanks for providing a place to start looking for more information.

I'm surprised you still appear to have absolute certainty about what happened when you've acknowledged that he's corrected you. This whole thread is confirmation bias and everyone needs to step back and wait for the facts.

The fact is the Georgia Bureau of Investigation found sufficient evidence to arrest Greg and Travis McMichael on charges of aggravated assault and felony murder. The video we saw and the parts of the police report that were released are solid evidence those two crimes were committed and there is no doubt who committed them.

I linked to information on how Georgia defines those situations in this post. Other posters and several linked articles have pointed out that the only way the McMichaels' armed pursuit and confrontation of Arbery would have been lawful would be if they had actually seen Arbery committing a crime right before they got their guns and went after him. They didn't see a crime being committed so they had no legal grounds for attempting to detain him.

Arbery's prior interactions with the McMichaels explains why they decided to pursue him. It does not make their choice a good one. It does not make their actions lawful. It does not make his death something other than felony murder.

Doesn't a court and/or a jury need to decide this?

 

[SLD]

***ETA: I see that your article says he was convicted of shoplifting a TV from WalMart. That would explain the McMichael's suspicions but it still doesn't make what they did legal. It's still aggravated assault and felony murder. Anyway, thanks for providing a place to start looking for more information.

I'm surprised you still appear to have absolute certainty about what happened when you've acknowledged that he's corrected you. This whole thread is confirmation bias and everyone needs to step back and wait for the facts.

The fact is the Georgia Bureau of Investigation found sufficient evidence to arrest Greg and Travis McMichael on charges of aggravated assault and felony murder. The video we saw and the parts of the police report that were released are solid evidence those two crimes were committed and there is no doubt who committed them.

I linked to information on how Georgia defines those situations in this post. Other posters and several linked articles have pointed out that the only way the McMichaels' armed pursuit and confrontation of Arbery would have been lawful would be if they had actually seen Arbery committing a crime right before they got their guns and went after him. They didn't see a crime being committed so they had no legal grounds for attempting to detain him.

Arbery's prior interactions with the McMichaels explains why they decided to pursue him. It does not make their choice a good one. It does not make their actions lawful. It does not make his death something other than felony murder.

It's manslaughter. It’s not felony murder by Georgia statute. To prove that, you'd have to show that they went after him with the intent to kill him. There’s simply no evidence of that. They’re overcharging to get a plea deal. Happens all the time. He'll either plead guilty to that, or the judge will likely reduce it at some later point. Or he won’t be convicted at all, which is a real possibility.

SLD

 

[Toni]

Yep. It was their fault that they had ancestors stupid enough to be enslaved and not clever enough to pass for white so they could go to school..

Forget ancestors! Everybody had shitty things happen to some of their ancestors. Some of my ancestors were oppressed by Ottoman Turks for 500 years for example. And most of the Middle Ages ancestors of most Europeans were feudal serfs, which was a not much better existence than antebellum slavery in the US.

In the modern day, blacks have no excuse not to finish high school, or to make several children with multiple baby daddies/mamas by the time they are 21, or to engage in criminal activity. All that's on them, not on white people or "The Man".

Did Arbery steal a TV from Walmart because of his ancestors? Did he bring a gun to a high school game because of his ancestors? Is that going to be the excuse no matter the behavior?

What white people did to his ancestors--including his parents, grandparents and even to him certainly has a role in every aspect of his life.

As for shoplifting: A GREAT many kids shoplift something or other in their lives. FFS, until fairly recently, it was EXTREMELY common for high school kids to have shotguns hanging in the back of their pick ups in the school parking lot or in the trunk of their car. Gun safety classes were held in the school. I was at a school function when I looked up and saw about 15 young teenagers with rifles walking along the second floor walkway, heading to such a class.
This was shut down after Columbine but seriously. Having done something wrong in the past is not a capital offense. People are still entitled to go jogging without being chased and gunned down in the street by vigilantes who think they match a description of a burglar. Mr. Law and Order Derec should damn well know that the correct thing for the murderers to have done if they had been certain or even suspicious that the person they saw jogging was a burglar was to call the police and give them a description. Not to chase him down with firearms.

McMichaels Sr.'s background as an 'investigator' for various law enforcement departments should have made him more responsible, and less inclined to act as a vigilante. Instead, it seems to have shield him and his son (the apparent shooter) from harm. So I guess it's fine for Travis to be protected by his daddy's connections.

As for the 'burglaries' in the neighborhood: Yes, some person or persons had been seen looking at an open construction site in the neighborhood. This is not uncommon a thing to happen. I guess my dad and the other men in the neighborhood were burglars when they looked at the construction site of a new home being built on our block?

 

[Elixir]

When was the last time a white person - petty thief or otherwise - was hunted down and killed by a posse of black people, in broad daylight and on clear video, and no charges were brought against the murderers?
Given some people's excuses for declining to make an arrest in an obviously premeditated homicide, you'd think that it was a normal thing in Georgia to go hunting petty thieves for sport. That's some real "Deliverance" shit right there.

This behavior among white southerners - hillbillies, rednecks and racists - has been selected for over quite a few generations. It should not surprise anyone.

Indeed. Posters right here on this forum are trying to reinforce the "rightness" of hunting down and killing black people. That they "might have been" the person who came on some property is sufficient reason. "And besides, he once stole a TV and brought a gun to school when he was 19."
These hypocrites would lose their little minds if a black person rationalized stalking and murdering a white boy on that same basis.

 

[repoman]

Was Aubrey an electrician?

I read that on a video comment but can't find evidence either way.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ahmaud Arbery was a thief. Deal with it!

I think this is a superficial classification and doesn't really help anything. I stole chocolates from my Mum's handbag when I was five. And I am admitting this on Mother's Day!

For many teenage and young adult women, shoplifting the cheaper jewelry, the stuff not kept in the locked displays, is a regular pastime. My wife worked at Penney's and caught a middle age well-to-do adult white woman switching tags on clothing then buying at the reduced price.

 

[Elixir]

The fact is the Georgia Bureau of Investigation found sufficient evidence to arrest Greg and Travis McMichael on charges of aggravated assault and felony murder. The video we saw and the parts of the police report that were released are solid evidence those two crimes were committed and there is no doubt who committed them.

I linked to information on how Georgia defines those situations in this post. Other posters and several linked articles have pointed out that the only way the McMichaels' armed pursuit and confrontation of Arbery would have been lawful would be if they had actually seen Arbery committing a crime right before they got their guns and went after him. They didn't see a crime being committed so they had no legal grounds for attempting to detain him.

Arbery's prior interactions with the McMichaels explains why they decided to pursue him. It does not make their choice a good one. It does not make their actions lawful. It does not make his death something other than felony murder.

Doesn't a court and/or a jury need to decide this?

Without the public release of the video and the resulting public outrage, no court or jury would have ever gotten that chance. It remains to be seen whether the good old boys' lawyer can get a jury of their peers to acquit them, but it would be no surprise. Their peers are almost certainly as racist as they are.
Georgia racism is highlighted in bold type by the murderers' supporters in this thread.

 

[southernhybrid]

Apparently, there is more evidence to support the charges.

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/gbi-reviewing-new-video-footage-ahmaud-arbery-case/xvSWFTbaD0k9cr80R7CTnL/

GBI agents in the Ahmaud Arbery murder investigation are reviewing additional video from the Glynn County neighborhood where he was shot to death as they piece together the minutes before the fatal confrontation that has drawn national attention to Georgia and its justice system.
Investigators are reviewing the tape, recorded minutes before the Feb. 23 killing, to gain a better understanding of what transpired before the shooting.“We are using video to put the timeline together to fill in the blanks of what happened that afternoon,” said Scott Dutton, GBI’s Deputy Director of investigations.The digital video file was obtained by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution from a source outside the GBI on Friday, and investigators confirmed it was part of the case file when the agency entered the case on Tuesday. "We are indeed reviewing additional video footage and photographs as part of the active case," the GBI said in a statement Saturday afternoon, several hours after the AJC’s article about the video posted online. "It is important to note that this footage was reviewed at the beginning of the GBI investigation and before the arrests of Gregory and Travis McMichael."The video appears to be from a home security camera installed at a house about a block from the shooting.

Lawyers representing Arbery’s family said in a Saturday statement that the security camera video proves Arbery did nothing wrong prior to the fatal encounter: “Ahmaud Arbery did not take part in any felony, had no illegal substances in his system, was not armed yet was shot three times with a shotgun at close range.”

Georgia law allows for a citizen’s arrest in a felony crime committed in one’s presence, said Arora, who is currently a criminal defense attorney in Atlanta. But a citizen can only use reasonable force to detain a person and deadly force cannot be used unless it’s to prevent a forcible felony or for self-defense.Since the McMichaels initiated the confrontation with the weapons it will be difficult for them to claim self-defense and what appears on the security video doesn’t justify their actions, he said. The footage also demonstrates that police were not far from the neighborhood when the incident occurred, he said.

There was absolutely no justification for what these two men did. I've also read that this particular police department has a history of corruption and incompetence. This type of severe racism isn't a Georgia problem. It's a national problem.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I can't believe there's any controversy here, let alone grounds for 20 pages of debate. I've lived in my present hometown since 1976, and I know a small number of townspeople who've had felony theft convictions. One was a bank teller who embezzled, I think, $60,000 from the bank. According to some who posted here, if I see this guy walking past my house, I'm within my rights, or who knows, doing my civic duty, if I grab a weapon and follow him down the street. It'll have to be a wrecking bar, since I don't assert my 2nd Amendment rights. Anyway, I'll track him as he walks down the street, and at some point I'll order him to halt and wave that wrecking bar at him. Then, if he puts up any resistance, I'll cave in his goddamned head. Have I done good? Do you need to know his race, first?

 

[laughing dog]

That is simply irrational, given Arbery's "history of theft" is one arrest for shoplifting.

Somebody who has a conviction for theft is more likely to engage in thievery again.

Prove it with actual evidence.

Also, just because he was arrested and convicted for one instance, does not mean he hasn't done it at other occasions.

All I have seen is reports if an arrest. Provide a link to an arrest.

Maybe not, but if he stole from that house he is not "just a jogger" either.

All you gave is a lots of conjecture and no facts to support your smearing of the victim snd ignorant justification of the killings.

 

[Rhea]

I can't believe there's any controversy here, let alone grounds for 20 pages of debate. I've lived in my present hometown since 1976, and I know a small number of townspeople who've had felony theft convictions. One was a bank teller who embezzled, I think, $60,000 from the bank. According to some who posted here, if I see this guy walking past my house, I'm within my rights, or who knows, doing my civic duty, if I grab a weapon and follow him down the street. It'll have to be a wrecking bar, since I don't assert my 2nd Amendment rights. Anyway, I'll track him as he walks down the street, and at some point I'll order him to halt and wave that wrecking bar at him. Then, if he puts up any resistance, I'll cave in his goddamned head. Have I done good? Do you need to know his race, first?

This is exactly what the defenders of this murder are suggesting, yes.

Grab your weapon of choice, watch for past offenders, assume they are still offending, kill them.

Indeed, we all know people who have committed crimes. Smoking pot, doing other drugs, buying underage, maybe some teen shoplifter or sport-field despoiler. Maybe a hirer of prostittues or a keeper of a foreign national. Maybe an arsonist or two (no other explanation for why of my 7 closest neighbors, 4 have had their houses burn to the ground since I've lived here.) This argument says I can sit on my porch with a gun and kill a few with "just cause".


I am appalled that any person with a heart thinks this makes a decent society. Especially those who will argue for dozens of pages that Kavanagh should be given the benefit of the doubt at his job interview. I read that this argument suggests he should just be shot.

The hypocrisy and naked racism is disgusting.

 

[Toni]

Prove it with actual evidence.

Also, just because he was arrested and convicted for one instance, does not mean he hasn't done it at other occasions.

All I have seen is reports if an arrest. Provide a link to an arrest.

Maybe not, but if he stole from that house he is not "just a jogger" either.

All you gave is a lots of conjecture and no facts to support your smearing of the victim snd ignorant justification of the killings.

Moreover, prove that anything was taken from the building site.

 

[Derec]

Moreover, prove that anything was taken from the building site.

According to reports, some fishing tackle was stolen a few days before.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Apparently, there is more evidence to support the charges.

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/gbi-reviewing-new-video-footage-ahmaud-arbery-case/xvSWFTbaD0k9cr80R7CTnL/

Georgia law allows for a citizen’s arrest in a felony crime committed in one’s presence, said Arora, who is currently a criminal defense attorney in Atlanta. But a citizen can only use reasonable force to detain a person and deadly force cannot be used unless it’s to prevent a forcible felony or for self-defense.Since the McMichaels initiated the confrontation with the weapons it will be difficult for them to claim self-defense and what appears on the security video doesn’t justify their actions, he said. The footage also demonstrates that police were not far from the neighborhood when the incident occurred, he said.

There was absolutely no justification for what these two men did. I've also read that this particular police department has a history of corruption and incompetence. This type of severe racism isn't a Georgia problem. It's a national problem.

Totally agree that there is absolutely no justification. Zero. But the fact that this has been so widely condemned, even by our great leader Trump (puke), tells me that this isn't a national problem. It's a couple racist assholes who deserve extensive jail time.

 

[Derec]

Prove it with actual evidence.

The high recidivism rates are a well known fact. Well, perhaps well known to everybody but you.

All I have seen is reports if an arrest.

I have linked to articles that detail that it was a conviction for stealing a TV from a Walmart. Try to pay attention please.

Provide a link to an arrest.

What do you mean? I already provided links to articles. Do you want actual arrest reports? I do not think Glynn County has those publicly accessible online,but you are welcome to search. What I have provided is enough for every fair-minded reader on here.

All you gave is a lots of conjecture and no facts to support your smearing of the victim snd ignorant justification of the killings.

I have not justified the killings. I think it's probably manslaughter, and not justified. I just don't think it's murder.
Also, pointing to true facts about Arbery is not smearing him.

 

[J842P]

The fact is the Georgia Bureau of Investigation found sufficient evidence to arrest Greg and Travis McMichael on charges of aggravated assault and felony murder. The video we saw and the parts of the police report that were released are solid evidence those two crimes were committed and there is no doubt who committed them.

I linked to information on how Georgia defines those situations in this post. Other posters and several linked articles have pointed out that the only way the McMichaels' armed pursuit and confrontation of Arbery would have been lawful would be if they had actually seen Arbery committing a crime right before they got their guns and went after him. They didn't see a crime being committed so they had no legal grounds for attempting to detain him.

Arbery's prior interactions with the McMichaels explains why they decided to pursue him. It does not make their choice a good one. It does not make their actions lawful. It does not make his death something other than felony murder.

It's manslaughter. It’s not felony murder by Georgia statute. To prove that, you'd have to show that they went after him with the intent to kill him. There’s simply no evidence of that. They’re overcharging to get a plea deal. Happens all the time. He'll either plead guilty to that, or the judge will likely reduce it at some later point. Or he won’t be convicted at all, which is a real possibility.

SLD

No, the intent to kill is not a requirement for felony murder. The rather, as long as you are committing an inherently dangerous felony that results in the death of someone, then you have committed felony murder. Suppose, you commit armed burglary and your gun goes off, it's felony murder. Or suppose you rob a bank and then while fleeing, you run over a pedestrian, that is felony murder. Indeed, this is one of the reasons these statutes are controversial.

 

[J842P]

I have not justified the killings. I think it's probably manslaughter, and not justified. I just don't think it's murder.
Also, pointing to true facts about Arbery is not smearing him.

Yes, it is, if it is shown that they had no right to pursue him (which I'm sure is what the trial will be about) - so they had to have just witnessed the crime - in which case they were committing aggravated assault, and thus it is felony murder by Georgia law.