Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

[Loren Pechtel]

I've held conceal carry permits in 3 states now and EVERY class you sit through makes it clear that you DO NOT grab your guns and pursue anyone. Even if Arbery was actually guilty of a burglary, I'm pretty sure that's not punishable by death. This is a murder.

In the video it can be seen that Arbery grabbed the shotgun. Not murder. Manslaughter at most.

Really? So if two armed guys chase you down the street while you are out for a job and you grab a shotgun to keep from being shot with it, but you still get shot, it's manslaughter?????

Or only if the dead guy is black and the guys with the shotguns are white?

What counts here is the intent. The guys with the guns believed they were making a citizen's arrest of a burglar. As such, they believed they were acting within the law. Imperfect self defense (when you didn't actually have the right you thought you did) is manslaughter, not murder. Thus this is almost certainly not higher than manslaughter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

These idiots grab their guns and pursue a runner. The DA says, well, they were just defending themselves.

Wait... what were they defending themselves from? Is "black jogger" that dangerous?

The guy fired because the "jogger" (quotes because his actual identity hasn't been proven one way or the other) attempted to take his friend's shotgun. Attempting to take someone's weapon without legal justification is considered a deadly threat. Looking only at the decision to pull the trigger it's clearly legal. The question is whether the events leading up to that take away the right of self defense.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

These idiots grab their guns and pursue a runner. The DA says, well, they were just defending themselves.

Wait... what were they defending themselves from? Is "black jogger" that dangerous?

The guy fired because the "jogger" (quotes because his actual identity hasn't been proven one way or the other) attempted to take his friend's shotgun. Attempting to take someone's weapon without legal justification is considered a deadly threat. Looking only at the decision to pull the trigger it's clearly legal. The question is whether the events leading up to that take away the right of self defense.

Trying to illegally apprehend someone with guns is not legal!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Really? So if two armed guys chase you down the street while you are out for a job and you grab a shotgun to keep from being shot with it, but you still get shot, it's manslaughter?????

Or only if the dead guy is black and the guys with the shotguns are white?

What counts here is the intent. The guys with the guns believed they were making a citizen's arrest of a burglar.

They are only allowed to do so having witnessed said crime. A 'hunch' isn't witnessing a crime. Additionally, they provided no information to the 911 operator that they had any such evidence and only noted that there was a guy running down the street. They committed assault while armed in trying to illegally apprehend a jogger. The jogger was acting in self-defense.

 

[Worldtraveller]

View attachment 27589

There will be a sham trial.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/georgia-govenor-gregory-mcmichael/

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I hate it when people create these fake things. We really need to be vigilant over bullshit. I think we should call it The Facebook/Twitter Rule. If the source is Facebook or Twitter, it requires three sources to back it up.

The bad news for Gov. Kemp is that, regardless the identity of the idiot he is posing with, this makes him... oh wait... bigotry isn't a problem in Georgia. Never mind.

 

[laughing dog]

Quit believing the apologists. Dire economic conditions if they exist are self-inflicted.

Kind of tailing away from the whole guy was victim of being illegally apprehended by two armed men, with a third guy video taping the whole thing.

If those killers had time to get their guns, they had time to call the police. If they had the time to follow this "suspect" with guns, they had time to follow him without guns and informing the police.

LP should quit believing the racist and bigoted apologists. Killing unarmed joggers is a self-inflicted crime.

 

[ZiprHead]

Sorry for posting that. Snopes got on that quick though.

 

[J842P]

These idiots grab their guns and pursue a runner. The DA says, well, they were just defending themselves.

Wait... what were they defending themselves from? Is "black jogger" that dangerous?

The guy fired because the "jogger" (quotes because his actual identity hasn't been proven one way or the other) attempted to take his friend's shotgun. Attempting to take someone's weapon without legal justification is considered a deadly threat. Looking only at the decision to pull the trigger it's clearly legal. The question is whether the events leading up to that take away the right of self defense.

What they were doing pursuing Arbery was not legal, it was aggravated assault.

 

[J842P]

Really? So if two armed guys chase you down the street while you are out for a job and you grab a shotgun to keep from being shot with it, but you still get shot, it's manslaughter?????

Or only if the dead guy is black and the guys with the shotguns are white?

What counts here is the intent. The guys with the guns believed they were making a citizen's arrest of a burglar. As such, they believed they were acting within the law. Imperfect self defense (when you didn't actually have the right you thought you did) is manslaughter, not murder. Thus this is almost certainly not higher than manslaughter.

No, it's not just the intent. No reasonable person would believe that they had just witnessed the burglary nor had immediate knowledge that Arbery was going to commit a burglery (indeed, they are not even claiming that). That is the requirement for citizen's arrest. No matter what they believed, they would still be criminally liable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Really? So if two armed guys chase you down the street while you are out for a job and you grab a shotgun to keep from being shot with it, but you still get shot, it's manslaughter?????

Or only if the dead guy is black and the guys with the shotguns are white?

What counts here is the intent. The guys with the guns believed they were making a citizen's arrest of a burglar.

They are only allowed to do so having witnessed said crime. A 'hunch' isn't witnessing a crime. Additionally, they provided no information to the 911 operator that they had any such evidence and only noted that there was a guy running down the street. They committed assault while armed in trying to illegally apprehend a jogger. The jogger was acting in self-defense.

This case comes down to what came before, it's impossible to determine just from the scene we saw.

 

[J842P]

They are only allowed to do so having witnessed said crime. A 'hunch' isn't witnessing a crime. Additionally, they provided no information to the 911 operator that they had any such evidence and only noted that there was a guy running down the street. They committed assault while armed in trying to illegally apprehend a jogger. The jogger was acting in self-defense.

This case comes down to what came before, it's impossible to determine just from the scene we saw.

You can easily go by their own words, Loren. And absent any evidence that this could have been a justified citizen's arrest, this is clearly murder.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They are only allowed to do so having witnessed said crime. A 'hunch' isn't witnessing a crime. Additionally, they provided no information to the 911 operator that they had any such evidence and only noted that there was a guy running down the street. They committed assault while armed in trying to illegally apprehend a jogger. The jogger was acting in self-defense.

This case comes down to what came before...

You mean when they called 911 to report the criminal and then couldn't actually indicate how they knew he was a criminal? Then they grabbed their guns and coordinated with a third person to shoot video of the whole thing? I mean, that does provide some context here.

it's impossible to determine just from the scene we saw.

It didn't stop you from coming up with all sorts of conclusions on how you know they were defending themselves and murdered the jogger, I mean killed the guy who tried to defend himself... I mean, the guy who ran at the poor defense armed people that followed him and we trying to apprehend him illegally. You know, I just can't spin this in a way where these assholes aren't liable for manslaughter (possibly premeditated murder).

 

[TSwizzle]

Is it 2nd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter?

I would say manslaughter since I do not think they would have fired had he not started to struggle for the shotgun.

And if he turns out to be the burglar, I think it is more likely than not they will be acquitted.

Since there was a struggle over the shotgun, is it possible the gun went off by accident ? Twice. Although I read reports there were three gunshots.

 

[Arctish]

Is it 2nd degree murder or voluntary manslaughter?

I would say manslaughter since I do not think they would have fired had he not started to struggle for the shotgun.

And if he turns out to be the burglar, I think it is more likely than not they will be acquitted.

Since there was a struggle over the shotgun, is it possible the gun went off by accident ? Twice. Although I read reports there were three gunshots.

It went off three times. The first was out of view of the camera. But that doesn't really matter.

Their armed pursuit fits the definition of Aggravated Assault. And in Georgia, if you kill someone while you are committing a felony, you're a murderer even if you didn't intend to hurt anyone.

 

[SLD]

You mean when they called 911 to report the criminal and then couldn't actually indicate how they knew he was a criminal? Then they grabbed their guns and coordinated with a third person to shoot video of the whole thing? I mean, that does provide some context here.

it's impossible to determine just from the scene we saw.

It didn't stop you from coming up with all sorts of conclusions on how you know they were defending themselves and murdered the jogger, I mean killed the guy who tried to defend himself... I mean, the guy who ran at the poor defense armed people that followed him and we trying to apprehend him illegally. You know, I just can't spin this in a way where these assholes aren't liable for manslaughter (possibly premeditated murder).

I agree in part. I don’t think there is any evidence of premeditated murder. They went after him with the intent to effectuate a citizens arrest of a burglary suspect, not simply to kill him. But they had no right to do so as they had not witnessed a burglary. In doing so they put themselves in the untenable position of having to act in self defense. But you can’t get away with self defense if you illegally caused the problem in the first place. Therefore it is manslaughter. Had they actually witnessed a felony, they might have had a good self defense argument.

One other point that’s unclear is whether both shot at him or only the guy with the rifle? If the guy on the truck also didn’t fire, I’m not sure if he can be charged with anything.

I’d be curious to know when the cops got this video. If back in February why only now are they issuing indictments?

This whole thing is so stupidly stunning. It’s part of the sick gun culture we have, where everyone thinks they’re going to star in their own episode of Real Police Chases and end up the hero. Let the fucking professionals do their fucking job you morons!

That being said, the victim wasn’t too bright here. He too could’ve waited for the professionals to do their job and not attacked people who were pointing guns at him. He may have just panicked which is understandable. Of course being stupid shouldn’t really carry the death penalty.

Still, if I were a betting man, I’d say they’ll likely be acquitted. Maybe a hung jury.

SLD

 

[laughing dog]

That being said, the victim wasn’t too bright here. He too could’ve waited for the professionals to do their job and not attacked people who were pointing guns at him. He may have just panicked which is understandable. Of course being stupid shouldn’t really carry the death penalty.

There were no professionals in the vicinity. There was no way for the victim to think there would be. Grabbing a gun is not the best idea, but there should have been no gun there in the first place.

 

[Elixir]

Deciding that there was "no crime committed" REQUIRED the assumption that the two armed white men had a right to self-defense after pursuing the victim, and that the black man being pursued and suddenly confronted by armed strangers had no such right.

 

[TV and credit cards]

§ 17-4-60. Grounds for arrest

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

McMichael stated "the other night" they saw the same male and he stuck his hand down his pants which lead them to believe the male was armed.

I mean, if you're going to go this far, you have to kill the man so he has no story to tell and you can throw in a good old "hand down the pants" claim.
This goes way far for a citizen's arrest. "Immediate knowledge", how ever they define that, pushes citizen's arrest toward vigilantism.

The dashcam video certainly makes the report of a struggle for the shotgun seem likely, although it doesn't seem conclusive to me.

You go after somebody's gun, expect to be shot!

Arbrey did not go after the gun, the gun went after him. He defended himself against a deadly weapon just as you or I might have. If a black man attempts to level a gun at you and it is within your reach to stop that action, would that not be your reaction?

 

[lpetrich]

Karine Jean-Pierre on Twitter: "#AhmaudAubrey https://t.co/ULiO9qq8dx" / Twitter has an image file with this text on it:

"Always remember, they didn't make arrests because they saw the tape; They made arrests because we saw the tape."

Meaning that the local police department had to be shamed into making those arrests.

Now we are seeing certain people doing character assassination to justify murder.