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Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

barbos

Contributor
Even Travis McMichael admitted while testifying in his own defense that Arbery was under no legal obligation to stop for him or his father
Yes, Arbery should have kept on "jogging" and nothing bad would have happened. Instead he decided to get a gun from a guy with a gun.
 

Arctish

Contributor
Even Travis McMichael admitted while testifying in his own defense that Arbery was under no legal obligation to stop for him or his father
Yes, Arbery should have kept on "jogging" and nothing bad would have happened. Instead he decided to get a gun from a guy with a gun.
I'm sorry, but that is too absurdly ignorant to take seriously.

And you haven't answered my questions. What makes you think Arbery wasn't a jogger? Is it because his workouts were more in keeping with him being a distance runner?

And what were people on the fence about?
 

Gospel

Aethiopian
Then, to make it all worse, their friends in the "justice" business tried to cover it all up. They deserve serious prison time. But so does, maybe more so, their friend in the prosecution office. Arbery's murderers committed a violent crime in the heat of the moment. The prosecutor who waved it away, and tried to cover it up, also deserves serious prison time.

I don't hear much about her. Anybody know what's happening on that front?


So long sucka!! You're swift departure from whatever standard of living you currently enjoy is a step closer to black people getting over it.
 
Even Travis McMichael admitted while testifying in his own defense that Arbery was under no legal obligation to stop for him or his father
Yes, Arbery should have kept on "jogging" and nothing bad would have happened. Instead he decided to get a gun from a guy with a gun.
This isn't how life works. A thing that is reasonable to do at time(x) isn't necessarily the most reasonable thing to do at time(x+n). So jogging may have been reasonable initially. Then, later on due to the far distance of potential life-takers, running may have been the best option. Then, even later than that once the distance had been closed on multiple sides, running would result in getting shot and killed and therefore, an attempt to fight for a gun over time becomes more and more reasonable in the mind of the victim.
 

barbos

Contributor
Even Travis McMichael admitted while testifying in his own defense that Arbery was under no legal obligation to stop for him or his father
Yes, Arbery should have kept on "jogging" and nothing bad would have happened. Instead he decided to get a gun from a guy with a gun.
This isn't how life works. A thing that is reasonable to do at time(x) isn't necessarily the most reasonable thing to do at time(x+n). So jogging may have been reasonable initially. Then, later on due to the far distance of potential life-takers, running may have been the best option. Then, even later than that once the distance had been closed on multiple sides, running would result in getting shot and killed and therefore, an attempt to fight for a gun over time becomes more and more reasonable in the mind of the victim.
You want me to believe that America today is a country where blacks are routinely hunted down and shot?
Why would blacks even jog if it is true?
 
Even Travis McMichael admitted while testifying in his own defense that Arbery was under no legal obligation to stop for him or his father
Yes, Arbery should have kept on "jogging" and nothing bad would have happened. Instead he decided to get a gun from a guy with a gun.
This isn't how life works. A thing that is reasonable to do at time(x) isn't necessarily the most reasonable thing to do at time(x+n). So jogging may have been reasonable initially. Then, later on due to the far distance of potential life-takers, running may have been the best option. Then, even later than that once the distance had been closed on multiple sides, running would result in getting shot and killed and therefore, an attempt to fight for a gun over time becomes more and more reasonable in the mind of the victim.
You want me to believe that America today is a country where blacks are routinely hunted down and shot?
Why would blacks even jog if it is true?
That hyperbolic proposition isn't a thing you have to believe in order to agree with what I wrote and so you are just engaging in taking an exaggerated stance to argue.
 

barbos

Contributor
That hyperbolic proposition isn't a thing you have to believe in order to agree with what I wrote and so you are just engaging in taking an exaggerated stance to argue.
Well, this is exactly what you suggested. You suggested that Ahmaud Arbery had reasons to believe that these rednecks were about to murder him.... for sure.
 

TomC

Veteran Member
That hyperbolic proposition isn't a thing you have to believe in order to agree with what I wrote and so you are just engaging in taking an exaggerated stance to argue.
Well, this is exactly what you suggested. You suggested that Ahmaud Arbery had reasons to believe that these rednecks were about to murder him.... for sure.
You cannot be much familiar with the U.S. if you don't understand this.
A lone black man, at night and on foot, is in grave danger if confronted by white yahoos with trucks and guns. Heck, I'd be scared and I'm a big white dude.
Tom
 

barbos

Contributor
That hyperbolic proposition isn't a thing you have to believe in order to agree with what I wrote and so you are just engaging in taking an exaggerated stance to argue.
Well, this is exactly what you suggested. You suggested that Ahmaud Arbery had reasons to believe that these rednecks were about to murder him.... for sure.
You cannot be much familiar with the U.S. if you don't understand this.
A lone black man, at night and on foot, is in grave danger if confronted by white yahoos with trucks and guns. Heck, I'd be scared and I'm a big white dude.
Tom
It was not night but that's not really relevant. So if what you said is true, then why in the love of God any black would be jogging through white neighborhood, or any neighborhood for that matter?

Oh, and I am pretty familiar with US and was warned to lock car doors when driving through South Side Chicago. Have never been in Georgia though. But I do read news and I don't remember ever reading about white lynching blacks on the street. I am talking about modern times.
 
That hyperbolic proposition isn't a thing you have to believe in order to agree with what I wrote and so you are just engaging in taking an exaggerated stance to argue.
Well, this is exactly what you suggested. You suggested that Ahmaud Arbery had reasons to believe that these rednecks were about to murder him.... for sure.
Bullshit. I did NOT suggest he had a priori reasons to think he was in danger based on a history of _routine_ lynchings. It was primarily the behaviors of the perpetrators that signaled danger and those are things I have mentioned, but you are failing to address, such as the less practicable it is to flee the closer a person comes to you with a shotgun and also the less practicable it is to flee once surrounded by multiple armed people. Your changing the subject to now discuss these alleged routine (a vague word by you) lynchings is getting you out of conceding that the basic survival risk of fleeing is dynamic and related to these other factors of proximity and if your assailants have started to surround you or not. Moreover, you are additionally wrong because McMichael senior says he screamed he was going to blow Arbery's fucking head off if he didn't stop. So, according to you, he was in NO danger if he continued to run, but according to McMichael senior and Reason he was in danger if he continued trying to move away from the perpetrators.
 

barbos

Contributor
I am not the one changing the subject here.
The subject here is what was that?
And the answer is: it was not lynching, he was not a jogger and he died because he decided that attacking a guy with a loaded gun was a best strategy to get out of the situation he was in. Yes these 3 rednecks created that situation, they thought the guy would submit to their demands, but he attacked them instead, the rest is just reflexes.
 
Have never been in Georgia though.

Many decades ago, I lived in Atlanta briefly. I was very young, like 4. Even at that age, I observed the KKK, racism, and saw a Black male teen who had been stabbed lying on the sidewalk in a business/shop area, possibly downtown. There were many White people around and no one was willing to do anything to save him or even call an ambulance. My mother flipped out due to the unwillingness of the people present to save the teen's life and she ran around, finally found a store owner who was willing to call an ambulance but there was some kind of reluctance there. It was told to me that the young guy died on the way to the hospital in the ambulance. Well, that story was different people. Maybe it's not relevant, but you are talking about locations and what you hear about them. So there's a story for you. ... ... ... I will add--in the case of Arbery being shot, according to Bryan, Travis McMichael stood over Arbery after he had shot him and said, "fucking nigger." While that claim by fellow assailant Bryan seems consistent with the kind of mentality of some people in Georgia in my experience, perhaps this claim is unsubstantiated or debunked. It also isn't necessarily indicative of malicious intent prior to shooting, but it may speak to a state of mind or warped thinking and racism and might have played a role. ... ... ... So what are your thoughts on this?
 

Elixir

Content Thief
…he died because he decided that attacking a guy with a loaded gun was a best strategy to get out of the situation he was in. .
He died because he was hunted down and murdered by three racist thugs. You have no reason to think any other decision he could have made would have produced a different outcome. It’s not like he had the option of becoming white for the occasion, and that’s the only thing that might have saved him.
 

barbos

Contributor
…he died because he decided that attacking a guy with a loaded gun was a best strategy to get out of the situation he was in. .
He died because he was hunted down and murdered by three racist thugs. You have no reason to think any other decision he could have made would have produced a different outcome. It’s not like he had the option of becoming white for the occasion, and that’s the only thing that might have saved him.
That's not what video shows.
 
I am not the one changing the subject here.
The subject here is what was that?
And the answer is: it was not lynching, he was not a jogger and he died because he decided that attacking a guy with a loaded gun was a best strategy to get out of the situation he was in. Yes these 3 rednecks created that situation, they thought the guy would submit to their demands, but he attacked them instead, the rest is just reflexes.
He did not have to submit to their demands and doing so still could have ended his life.
Many decades ago, I lived in Atlanta briefly
Oh, I was in Atlanta,,,, airport once. So technically I was in Georgia.
Travis McMichael stood over Arbery after he had shot him and said, "fucking nigger."
That's bad, but it happened after Arbery tried to get his gun but failed.
And I don't dispute habitual racism but that does not amount to lynching blacks.
But it speaks to state of mind and warped thinking, right?
 
He did not have to submit to their demands and doing so still could have ended his life.
could have? I don't buy it. All he needed to do was to stop and say "OK, call the police"
But it speaks to state of mind and warped thinking, right?
If I start attacking everyone who has warped thinking I would have no time for anything else.
You are treating the warped racist thinking as if it is irrelevant to the point of considering survival risk. Since Travis McMichael is racist and engaged in warped thinking, you can't say for sure that if Arbery stopped he'd no longer be in danger because you are placing a rational mind and behavior onto Travis McMichael, contrary to the documented objective evidence.

I will add--you are now saying two contradictory things:
1. "All he needed to do was to stop and say 'OK, call the police'..." As explained above, this is an unsubstantied claim and still has considerable risk since the assailants signaled racist thinking to begin with.
2. "Arbery should have kept on 'jogging' and nothing bad would have happened." A completely different original claim and one contradicted by Travis McMichael's father who claims he merely screamed "Stop or I'll blow your fucking head off," but for all we know he may have yelled something even worse and racist which is possibly why Travis McMichael gave a "I do not recall Senator" about it in court.
 

barbos

Contributor
He did not have to submit to their demands and doing so still could have ended his life.
could have? I don't buy it. All he needed to do was to stop and say "OK, call the police"
But it speaks to state of mind and warped thinking, right?
If I start attacking everyone who has warped thinking I would have no time for anything else.
You are treating the warped racist thinking as if it is irrelevant to the point of considering survival risk. Since Travis McMichael is racist and engaged in warped thinking, you can't say for sure that if Arbery stopped he'd no longer be in danger because you are placing a rational mind and behavior onto Travis McMichael, contrary to the objective evidence.
Bullshit. You know damn well that Travis McMichael represents majority of the local population over there. The mere fact none of these 3 idiots suggested "wait a moment, lets call a police instead" suggest it's at least very common.

So stop painting it as "Lets go kill some blacks". It was not lynching. It was a result of your stupid gun laws with admixture of common (in the south) racism.
 
He did not have to submit to their demands and doing so still could have ended his life.
could have? I don't buy it. All he needed to do was to stop and say "OK, call the police"
But it speaks to state of mind and warped thinking, right?
If I start attacking everyone who has warped thinking I would have no time for anything else.
You are treating the warped racist thinking as if it is irrelevant to the point of considering survival risk. Since Travis McMichael is racist and engaged in warped thinking, you can't say for sure that if Arbery stopped he'd no longer be in danger because you are placing a rational mind and behavior onto Travis McMichael, contrary to the objective evidence.
Bullshit.

No, it's not bullshit. Warped thinking and racism has dire results because racist people operate under incorrect assumptions of personal risk and incorrect assumptions of external guilt and criminality. That kind of warped thinking will produce bad conclusions and therefore puts Arbery in danger with ANY KIND of interaction at all with armed racists, even if they are MODERATELY or MILDLY racist. There is still a risk. It all comes in degrees, both racism and risk are spectra.

You know damn well that Travis McMichael represents majority of the local population over there.

For someone who was once at an airport in Atlanta, you sure seem so very sure of yourself. Did you also stay at a Holiday Inn Express? Obviously, you can't deal with what I wrote and are rushing to extreme interpretations (ONCE AGAIN). Once again, racism comes in degrees. I haven't made a claim that Travis McMichael was a shit-kicking KKK fucker. I just said he was racist. It comes in degrees. His irrational thinking is a danger. This is proved as he committed crimes due to his racism such as false imprisonment even before he murdered Arbery.

The mere fact none of these 3 idiots suggested "wait a moment, lets call a police instead" suggest it's at least very common.

Can you please show your Holiday Inn Express receipt to prove your statistical claim? :rolleyes:


So stop painting it as "Lets go kill some blacks". It was not lynching. It was a result of your stupid gun laws with admixture of common (in the south) racism.
You are either deliberately painting what I wrote differently than I wrote it or you are incapable of seeing nuance. Once again, I did not write it was the kind of old-school shit-kicking KKK lynching with burning crosses and hanging black men from trees. I wrote that the warped racist thinking put Arbery in danger no matter what he did and this is true no matter what the degree of racism.
 

barbos

Contributor
CNN calls it lynching of a jogger. Nuances my ass.

I repeat, he was not a jogger, it was not a lynching, and Arbery would have been alive today if he decided against attacking a guy with a gun and these 3 idiots would have been in prison on much lesser charges.
It's a case of a 4 idiots and idiotic gun laws.
 
His irrational thinking?

Yes. Like I wrote before, "Warped thinking and racism has dire results because racist people operate under incorrect assumptions of personal risk and incorrect assumptions of external guilt and criminality. That kind of warped thinking will produce bad conclusions and therefore puts Arbery in danger with ANY KIND of interaction at all with armed racists, even if they are MODERATELY or MILDLY racist. There is still a risk. It all comes in degrees, both racism and risk are spectra."

What about an idiot who decides to piss off a police..... when they leave?
Probably not relevant.
 

Elixir

Content Thief
You forgot; Arbery tried to get the gun after he was hunted down and surrounded by three racist thugs.
And after he attacked a policeman who was not racist thug at all.
So, I think racist angle was not on his mind at all.
Link please.
Please show that the murderers witnessed this supposed attack, since that would be a requirement for justification of their citizen’s arrest claim.
There is no evidence that this “attack” (that I never heard of), was somehow causally connected to the murder, so it is irrelevant even if it happened.

ETA You are aware that all three are convicted of murder by 11 whites and one black person, right?
 

TomC

Veteran Member
CNN calls it lynching of a jogger. Nuances my ass.

I repeat, he was not a jogger, it was not a lynching, and Arbery would have been alive today if he decided against attacking a guy with a gun and these 3 idiots would have been in prison on much lesser charges.
It's a case of a 4 idiots and idiotic gun laws.
I don't care what CNN said, or what time of day the murder took place. I also strongly doubt that Arbery was jogging. I'm confident that he was planning criminal mischief.
Here's why I think "lynching" is the right word to use, though. It's not really about race, although that's a huge factor. It was a lynching because the perps did what they did assuming that they'd be protected from legal consequences of committing murder by the local "justice" system. They were, that's a fact.

That's what makes the murder a lynching. The perps knew that they could(probably) get away with murder because the government officials would not take the action appropriate for the event. Which the government officials came through on.
That's what makes this a lynching.
Tom
 

jab

Veteran Member
Should we assume that whatever the jury decides is best? or the closest to the truth that we can hope for? because they heard all the facts?

Or is there only one verdict which can be right? -- Guilty? -- and any other verdict is wrong and only further proof that America is racist?
They killed the guy. That isn't remotely debatable. The question is whether they should go to prison for it.

The lawyer for the shooter blamed the Arbery for defending himself when her client aimed a gun at him... which is why her client was totally in the right to shoot Arbery to defend himself. If you are good with that, then you should be good with an acquittal.
She went way beyond that. She said:

"Turning Ahmaud Arbery into a victim after the choices that he made does not reflect the reality of what brought Ahmaud Arbery to Satilla Shores in his khaki shorts with no socks to cover his long, dirty toenails,"

And why did she say that? A former prosecutor thinks it was an appeal to the emotions of this particular jury:

Former prosecutor Mark Eiglarsh said Hogue had the pulse of the jury.
"I did find the defense lawyer's comments, personally, extremely offensive," Eiglarch said. "That said, I'm going to defend her right to make it, because her job is to do everything that she can to get an acquittal, as long as it's within the confines of what the law allows."
"As outrageous and offensive as I found it personally, I know that she wouldn't have made it if she didn't think it would resonate with those particular jurors," Eiglarsh said. "And that's what she did."
<link>

What brought Ahmaud Arbery to Satilla Shores that day was jogging while Black. It appears Greg McMichael's lawyer thinks the jury will agree that warrants a death sentence carried out by vigilantes. Or at least she's willing to take that stance in court.
I think it backfired--the dog whistle was perhaps too loud. And the gender balance was wrong--the men, and perhaps the women too, would not take kindly to a woman in a position of power making critical comments about (a male's) personal hygiene and clothing choices.
So people who are up to no good, like armed robberies and gang warfare traditionally do not wear socks?
No, joggers wear socks and he was not.

There is no "No," even if I were half-joking.

The defense is saying joggers typically wear socks. Therefore, he probably wasn't jogging. They want you to conclude he was up to no good. But keep following one idea to the next. Criminals ALSO typically wear socks. Everyone does, but especially criminals who have to run away like what is being implied. So the whole sock thing is a meaningless exercise in inconsistently applying probabilities to impugn the victim, but ultimately is nothing.
Smart criminals (which is a rare breed ) are typically prepared, so they wear socks, running shoes and running shorts and they really run when they have to, they don't pretend when it becomes clear that they are being chased.
Ahmad was not smart criminal. He was a dumb idiot who thought that if he pretends to be a jogger he could jog away from 3 armed guys on a truck.
How do you know what he thought--did his spirit appear and tell you?
 

jab

Veteran Member
Arbery reacted reasonably. Instinct says fight or flight. Bunch of guys, some in pickup trucks with shotguns or whatever, chasing him down, he's going into flight mode. That makes sense. And once they are both too close for being able to run without being shot and they are also somewhat surrounding him, he's cornered, in which case to survive, he's got to switch to fight mode. And that means subdue and/or take opponent's weapon, then reassess the situation, to either shoot the chasers or run again.

One thing that could have changed the game is if some of these entitled lunatics yelled, "we're making a citizen's arrest! Stop running. We are arresting you." OR if they had called the police and let the police handle it, provided they didn't lie and say Arbery was armed or dangerous, in which case, that could also end up in his death.
They did call the police, I think, but then they kept on going. . .
 

jab

Veteran Member
clearly was not trying to kill you

What made that clear? Was it the part where he was being chased by civilians he didn't know? Was it the part where one of the said civilians brandished a shotgun as he rounded one of their cars that cut him off? What part made that clear to you?
The part where they did not shoot him immediately and told him to stop instead.
But that doesn't change the fact that his killers committed murder. They chased him, boxed him in, then shot him.
You omitted a part where Arbery attacked a guy with a shotgun.
And you're missing the whole part about the long long history of the racist lynchings of black males in America. Something black American males would know.
 

jab

Veteran Member
I am not the one changing the subject here.
The subject here is what was that?
And the answer is: it was not lynching, he was not a jogger and he died because he decided that attacking a guy with a loaded gun was a best strategy to get out of the situation he was in. Yes these 3 rednecks created that situation, they thought the guy would submit to their demands, but he attacked them instead, the rest is just reflexes.
Once he was pursued and then cornered by these vigilantes, a reasonable assumption would have been that they were going to kill him if they could, unless he escaped their clutches. If you were in such a situation, believing that vigilantes, based on the historical record, were out for your blood from the get go, what would you have done? Yes, I know, your response would be, don't be there in the first place. Well that is assenting to de facto segregation, the legal version of which black and whites fought and died to end in states like Georgia several decades to go.
What you are doing here is like blaming a rape victim for being raped--and the defense did try the inappropriate garb smear here, a smear which you have been happy to amplify.
 

jab

Veteran Member
…he died because he decided that attacking a guy with a loaded gun was a best strategy to get out of the situation he was in. .
He died because he was hunted down and murdered by three racist thugs. You have no reason to think any other decision he could have made would have produced a different outcome. It’s not like he had the option of becoming white for the occasion, and that’s the only thing that might have saved him.
Thank you for putting it so succinctly.
 

Tigers!

Veteran Member

ETA You are aware that all three are convicted of murder by 11 whites and one black person, right?
I am glad that those 3 murderers have been found guilty. From Australia it sometime seems that the South is full of such people. Such is the power of hyperbolic reporting.
I notice is this case that 11 whites and 1 black were on the jury. Was that considered a problem? I ask that because in the Rittenhouse case the ratio was reversed and that caused quite a stir it seems.
In every case case involving white, black, regardless of whom is plaintiff or defendant, if you are going to minutely scrutinise the ratios of the jury to try to get a 'fair' jury how will justice ever be seem to be done?
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
I am glad that those 3 murderers have been found guilty. From Australia it sometime seems that the South is full of such people. Such is the power of hyperbolic reporting.

The South IS full of such people. The South is not exclusively such people, if that's what you meant. But they are fucking everywhere.
And the North. And the West. They just seem louder since ZTrump took office, and louder still in the South.


I notice is this case that 11 whites and 1 black were on the jury. Was that considered a problem?
Some will consider it a problem no matter how the numbers fall. Someone will cry 'Unfair!' no matter what, esp. if their side loses.
In every case case involving white, black, regardless of whom is plaintiff or defendant, if you are going to minutely scrutinise the ratios of the jury to try to get a 'fair' jury how will justice ever be seem to be done?
The lawyers scrutinise each juror, looking for favorable or at least not prejudicial members. It's the 'hyperbolic press' thst scrutinizes the ratios.
And again, justice will not be seen to be done by certain groups unless they win. If not, it must be a conspiracy...
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
CNN calls it lynching of a jogger. Nuances my ass.

I repeat, he was not a jogger, it was not a lynching, and Arbery would have been alive today if he decided against attacking a guy with a gun and these 3 idiots would have been in prison on much lesser charges.
It's a case of a 4 idiots and idiotic gun laws.

He went for the gun because he expected to die if he didn't.
 

Gospel

Aethiopian
CNN calls it lynching of a jogger. Nuances my ass.

I repeat, he was not a jogger, it was not a lynching, and Arbery would have been alive today if he decided against attacking a guy with a gun and these 3 idiots would have been in prison on much lesser charges.
It's a case of a 4 idiots and idiotic gun laws.

If he wasn't a jogger what was he? And whatever it is you think he was did he deserve to die for that?

The rest of your point of view is based on hypotheticals. As if you can predict the outcome if he would have stopped.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
CNN calls it lynching of a jogger. Nuances my ass.

I repeat, he was not a jogger, it was not a lynching, and Arbery would have been alive today if he decided against attacking a guy with a gun and these 3 idiots would have been in prison on much lesser charges.
It's a case of a 4 idiots and idiotic gun laws.

If he wasn't a jogger what was he? And whatever it is you think he was did he deserve to die for that?

The rest of your point of view is based on hypotheticals. As if you can predict the outcome if he would have stopped.
I asked him how someone simulates jogging without, you know... Jogging.

I strangely haven't heard back on this.
 

barbos

Contributor
CNN calls it lynching of a jogger. Nuances my ass.

I repeat, he was not a jogger, it was not a lynching, and Arbery would have been alive today if he decided against attacking a guy with a gun and these 3 idiots would have been in prison on much lesser charges.
It's a case of a 4 idiots and idiotic gun laws.

He went for the gun because he expected to die if he didn't.
Was it reasonable to have that expectation?
And he went to attack a leaving police officer because ........
 

barbos

Contributor
CNN calls it lynching of a jogger. Nuances my ass.

I repeat, he was not a jogger, it was not a lynching, and Arbery would have been alive today if he decided against attacking a guy with a gun and these 3 idiots would have been in prison on much lesser charges.
It's a case of a 4 idiots and idiotic gun laws.

If he wasn't a jogger what was he? And whatever it is you think he was did he deserve to die for that?

The rest of your point of view is based on hypotheticals. As if you can predict the outcome if he would have stopped.
He was a black guy, who correctly thought that these guys were trying to detain him for trespassing.
 

Arctish

Contributor
Was it reasonable to have that expectation?

After attempting to escape from the McMichaels and Bryan for 5 minutes, being repeatedly cut off and cornered, being struck by Bryan's truck, subjected to death threats from Greg McMichael and faced with Travis McMichael armed with a shotgun and moving to cut him off at close range, yes. It was reasonable for him to have that expectation.
 
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