Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

[laughing dog]

Gregory McMichael's law enforcement certification and service weapon had been suspended. Seems he repeated failed to take required firearms and use-of-force courses. As a result, he agreed that he "will not engage in any activity that would be construed as being law enforcement in nature,"

And yet somehow it was still quite reasonable for him to make a "citizen's arrest".

Nobody disputes that McMichaels had no legal right to conduct citizen arrest.
They were 100% wrong. But suppose McMichael was a perfect police officer but they had legal right to conduct citizens arrest. (they saw Arbery tresspassing)
Do you think outcome would have been different? Would it make anyone happier and less dead?

It is highly likely that the outcome would have been different. First, a single uniformed police officer does not look like a lynch mob. Second, the uniform would send a clear single of state sanctioned action with oversight. Third, if McMichaels was a perfect police officer, he would know how to handle the situation so that it would not escalate.

So, all in all, it is reasonable to think the outcome would have been a lot different with no deaths.

 

[Toni]

Gregory McMichael's law enforcement certification and service weapon had been suspended. Seems he repeated failed to take required firearms and use-of-force courses. As a result, he agreed that he "will not engage in any activity that would be construed as being law enforcement in nature,"

And yet somehow it was still quite reasonable for him to make a "citizen's arrest".

Nobody disputes that McMichaels had no legal right to conduct citizen arrest.
They were 100% wrong. But suppose McMichael was a perfect police officer but they had legal right to conduct citizens arrest. (they saw Arbery tresspassing)
Do you think outcome would have been different? Would it make anyone happier and less dead?

I would like to think that actual qualified police officers would have behaved much differently and not rounded up their kd and some because flies armed with shotguns and a phone to ducument their lynching but instead, might have simply asked that Arbery avoid going into that construction site as it would be trespassing.

That’s what sensible, reasonable adults would do.

 

[blastula]

Seems Arbery was a frequent visitor to the construction site.
Ahmaud Arbery case: Security footage shows visits to construction site

No, that doesn't say it was Arbery in the earlier videos.

Yeah, it says it "appears" to be the same person or that "believed to be" the same person. Of course, it should not matter to any rational person how many times Mr. Arbery may have visited or actually visited the construction site.

It didn't say that neither. It says there's the same guy on several videos, but doesn't identify him.

 

[ruby sparks]

Nobody disputes that McMichaels had no legal right to conduct citizen arrest.

True now. Although you pretty much did earlier in the thread, when your were pedalling your little Apologetic Mk 1.

Then you moved to Mk 2: various things victim should have done instead, and Mk3: gunman was being attacked and had to defend himself.

One wonders just exactly what sort of evidence you would need to see for a killing in order to not repeatedly indulge in blatant apologetics and victim-blaming.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, it says it "appears" to be the same person or that "believed to be" the same person. Of course, it should not matter to any rational person how many times Mr. Arbery may have visited or actually visited the construction site.

It didn't say that neither. It says there's the same guy on several videos, but doesn't identify him.

Yes, it does. What does the phrase "same person" mean to you?

And, from your own link:

Twelve days later, a person believed to be Arbery entered the construction site around 1 p.m.

 

[barbos]

Nobody disputes that McMichaels had no legal right to conduct citizen arrest.

True now. Although you pretty much did earlier in the thread,

No, i did not

skipped

 

[blastula]

Yes, it does. What does the phrase "same person" mean to you?

And, from your own link:

Twelve days later, a person believed to be Arbery entered the construction site around 1 p.m.

It says there appears to be a guy who showed up in more than one of the earlier videos, exclusive of the video on the day of the shooting.

It doesn't say the guy from the earlier videos is the same guy as in the video on the day of the shooting, who was obviously Arbery.

 

[barbos]

Gregory McMichael's law enforcement certification and service weapon had been suspended. Seems he repeated failed to take required firearms and use-of-force courses. As a result, he agreed that he "will not engage in any activity that would be construed as being law enforcement in nature,"

And yet somehow it was still quite reasonable for him to make a "citizen's arrest".

Nobody disputes that McMichaels had no legal right to conduct citizen arrest.
They were 100% wrong. But suppose McMichael was a perfect police officer but they had legal right to conduct citizens arrest. (they saw Arbery tresspassing)
Do you think outcome would have been different? Would it make anyone happier and less dead?

I would like to think that actual qualified police officers would have behaved much differently and not rounded up their kd and some because flies armed with shotguns and a phone to ducument their lynching but instead, might have simply asked that Arbery avoid going into that construction site as it would be trespassing.

That’s what sensible, reasonable adults would do.

No, that's not my scenario. In my scenario they or elder McMichael (if you like) decided to arrest Arbery.

 

[ruby sparks]

No, i did not

Well you certainly queried the suggestion:

your link does not forbid demanding to stop while armed. Police does it all the time. And these two assholes claim they were making citizen arrest which is legal in Georgia.

skipped

Please don't tell me you are now saying Arbery should have skipped over the gunmen because he was so athletic.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Also, why did you not respond to the majority of my post? Didn't get it? Please try again.

It was kind of all over the place and irrelevant anyway, since your premise is incorrect. I see many black families living in nice suburban as well as nice urban neighborhoods.

In other words, you can't respond to the actual content of what I wrote about white people just going on construction sites unannounced without people making assumptions about them. Claiming I live in Vermont is just plain false and way to try to make real cases look like outliers. Shame, Derec. I do not live in Vermont or New Hampshire. Claiming that is all over the place instead of actually responding isn't very convincing either, Derec!

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Well you certainly queried the suggestion:

skipped

Please don't tell me you are now saying Arbery should have skipped over the gunmen because he was so athletic.

One time I was being chased by someone with a kind of fire extinguisher that streams tons of high pressure water. He was going to close the distance and so I quickly turned a corner and hid in order to counterattack which I did, grabbing the extinguisher, and then wrestling him. I had caught him off guard by flipping and was then able to defend myself.

Sure this was just a college prankster, but if it had been someone in a vehicle with a gun like these guys or a Zimmerman who could run me down eventually, I might be in the same situation. I might decide to hide around a corner and try to grab the gun in cover of darkness or using a car as a corner to mitigate direct trajectory of a gun bullet.

You cannot run indefinitely from people in a well-gassed vehicle and using all your immediate energy to run will exhaust you making you vulnerable.

 

[Politesse]

As for suggesting that the victim should have phoned the police, even if he thought he had time for this, or could reasonably be expected to think that quickly and clearly in that situation, which he probably didn't and couldn't, reaching into his pocket to pull out a phone might have made the episode even shorter than it was.

That was my first thought with that. Black men in America are taught from the time they are boys never to go for their phone in such situations, even though this is an instinctive thing to do in an uncomfortable but not-yet deadly situation.

 

[barbos]

Well you certainly queried the suggestion:

I merely stated the fact.

skipped

Please don't tell me you are now saying Arbery should have skipped over the gunmen because he was so athletic.

What?

 

[Derec]

In other words, you can't respond to the actual content

The "actual content" is based on the faulty premise that black people can't get out of "black" neighborhoods.
Since I refuted that, there is no need to waste time with the rest of your screed.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

In other words, you can't respond to the actual content

The "actual content" is based on the faulty premise that black people can't get out of "black" neighborhoods.

NO, it wasn't. You did not respond to the vast majority of what I wrote and you are still snipping my summaries of the content instead of addressing them. Here is the last one you snipped:

...white people just going on construction sites unannounced without people making assumptions about them...

Since I refuted that, there is no need to waste time with the rest of your screed.

Deliberately snipping a repeated point is not wasting your time with a screed it's running away from logic. Please try again.

 

[Derec]

Not that the rest of it is any better. For example, do you have any evidence that white people can trespass on construction sites without getting in trouble for it?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Not that the rest of it is any better. For example, do you have any evidence that white people can trespass on construction sites without getting in trouble for it?

Yes. My own, as already noted.

 

[Toni]

I would like to think that actual qualified police officers would have behaved much differently and not rounded up their kd and some because flies armed with shotguns and a phone to ducument their lynching but instead, might have simply asked that Arbery avoid going into that construction site as it would be trespassing.

That’s what sensible, reasonable adults would do.

No, that's not my scenario. In my scenario they or elder McMichael (if you like) decided to arrest Arbery.

I posted my opinion of what intelligent, well meaning and qualified people would do. I wasn't attempting to support or critique ‘your scenario.’

 

[Toni]

Not that the rest of it is any better. For example, do you have any evidence that white people can trespass on construction sites without getting in trouble for it?

I’ve observed it. I’m pretty sure I’ve done it.

 

[ZiprHead]

Not that the rest of it is any better. For example, do you have any evidence that white people can trespass on construction sites without getting in trouble for it?

I’ve observed it. I’m pretty sure I’ve done it.

My friends and I did it.

Construction sites are points of curiosity for many people. It's something you don't get to see often.