Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

"Arbery is dead because of his actions."

That is painting reality with ideological bias. The truth is that the cause of the state of the universe is the previous state of the universe, i.e. all past events cause the future. It isn't quite arbitrary to focus on Arbery, but it is arbitrary to focus only on Arbery and it is downright inaccurate to claim Arbery's actions were the "immediate" cause of his own death. To review--the immediate steps to Arbery's death included being shot by a person who was capable of making choices. That person made choice after choice after choice. Those choices produced bullets speeding toward Arbery unnecessarily. So one of the proximal (immediate) causes of Arbery's death were the bad choices made by the assailant. Now prior to Arbery going into survival fight mode he was in flight mode to survive. And people surrounded him, chased him with vehicles, threatened him, and brandished weapons...all illegally. Those actions also were causes of his death, they were further removed than Arbery's switching from flight to fight. So the things that caused his death were their illegal, entitled actions, Arbery's switching from flight to fight, and following that terrible decisions by McMichael.

That said, we don't actually know if in a different universe where Arbery was suddenly compliant with people terrorizing him, if he would have survived or died. That is, if he continued to flee, he might also have been killed--that is what McMichael's father said. If he stopped and put his hands up (why to civilians who were trying to kill him), he might have been shot. And so some of the factors at play were more signifiant than others because they may have resulted in Arbery's death in any universe, notably McMichael's and others decisions to chase Arbery down and pull out guns. Those remain significant regardless of other factors being present or not.

 

[barbos]

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. I continue to be amazed that you have managed to survive this long despite being burdened with such an obvious lack of connection to reality.

you call this stupid?

 

[Rhea]

you call this stupid?

You call those yahoos police?

 

[barbos]

you call this stupid?

You call those yahoos police?

No, these are actors and Chris Rock is a comedian.

 

[Rhea]

you call this stupid?

You call those yahoos police?

No, these are actors and Chris Rock is a comedian.

I mean the McMichaels. Otherwise why would you bring up a video about surviving police? Arbery never saw anyy police. Just yahoos committing felonies.

 

[barbos]

you call this stupid?

You call those yahoos police?

No, these are actors and Chris Rock is a comedian.

I mean the McMichaels. Otherwise why would you bring up a video about surviving police? Arbery never saw anyy police. Just yahoos committing felonies.

My comment (which caused "stupid" exchange) had little to do with McMichaels.
I said the fact that Arbery had lived that long was a miracle. Police could had shot him couple of times at least by the time of McMichaels.

For a 23 year old he had a ridiculously extensive list of police encounters and should had been in prison and/or mental institution.

 

[Arctish]

you call this stupid?

You call those yahoos police?

No, these are actors and Chris Rock is a comedian.

I mean the McMichaels. Otherwise why would you bring up a video about surviving police? Arbery never saw anyy police. Just yahoos committing felonies.

My comment (which caused "stupid" exchange) had little to do with McMichaels.
I said the fact that Arbery had lived that long was a miracle. Police could had shot him couple of times at least by the time of McMichaels.

For a 23 year old he had a ridiculously extensive list of police encounters and should had been in prison and/or mental institution.

Where are you getting your information?

 

[jab]

He probably knew damn well that he had committed no felony, and that it would required that they witnessed a felony for any attempt to detain him to be legal.

Really? You honestly giving that much credit to Ahmaud Arbery?

You still don't know that. There was no attack on police.

Oh, I definitely know that, there was an attack on a police there.

Very Trumpian, very K. Conway.

 

[barbos]

Very Trumpian, very K. Conway.

Yes, both Trump(s) and Arbery are/were burden on society.

 

[Swammerdami]

From evidence shown in this thread we know Arbery was crazy, or at least had been years before. (I am not qualified to guess which specific DSM-IV type of craziness was involved. But in a racist society like U.S.A. it is easy for a black man to become crazed with anger.) However I've seen no claim that his craziness motivated the initial decision to perform citizen's arrest. Anyway, what happened to values like charity and humanity?

It's good that these murderers were convicted of murder. Justice system finally got one right.

No, I can expect people to follow laws against violent crime. It doesn't matter if it was "random", what matters is if it was legally justified. It wasn't, quite clearly, from all the basic facts. And citizen's arrest laws go way too far as it is, it is a good thing that there was a complete overhaul in Georgia following this, but even *despite the laws that existed at the time*, they are still guilty.

It does not matter whether or not it was justified arrest. People survive unjustified arrests every day. Arbery is dead because of his actions. In fact, it's a miracle that he was not killed before by the police or by someone else.

If your argument were sensical, racists could harass blacks at random, aiming their vehicle at them in near-collisions. Once the victim is sufficiently enraged he can then be shot to death in "self-defense"! To protect against this, I suppose blacks are obligated to throw up their arms and surrender to any white man who accosts them?

Wow! Do you live in Russia? Is that the way things are done there?

Yes, both Trump(s) and Arbery are/were burden on society.

Alleged craziness warrants murder? Or only if the victim is black?

 

[barbos]

If your argument were sensical, racists could harass blacks at random, aiming their vehicle at them in near-collisions. Once the victim is sufficiently enraged he can then be shot to death in "self-defense"! To protect against this, I suppose blacks are obligated to throw up their arms and surrender to any white man who accosts them?

Wow! Do you live in Russia? Is that the way things are done there?

There are no specific citizen's arrest laws in Russia. Certainly not with guns. And self-defense laws are pretty weak.

Your argument is nonsensical. These 3 idiots had the right guy, they had citizen's arrest law and that's what they tried to do. Unfortunately the guy had some mental issues.

 

[laughing dog]

If your argument were sensical, racists could harass blacks at random, aiming their vehicle at them in near-collisions. Once the victim is sufficiently enraged he can then be shot to death in "self-defense"! To protect against this, I suppose blacks are obligated to throw up their arms and surrender to any white man who accosts them?

Wow! Do you live in Russia? Is that the way things are done there?

There are specific citizen's arrest laws in Russia. Certainly not with guns. And self-defense laws are pretty weak.

Your argument is nonsensical. These 3 idiots had the right guy, they had citizen's arrest law and that's what they tried to do. Unfortunately the guy had some mental issues.

Your argument is based on delusional premises. There is no evidence Mr. Arbery had committed a felony. None. These 3 vigilantes could have simply called the police while following Mr. Arbery. Instead they trapped him and instigated a deadly encounter. And after that, they assumed some special consideration from the police and the local prosecutor would protect them.

A jury of peers after weighing all the evidence (sworn testimony of witnesses) - something you do not do - they found those 3 racist vigilantes guilty.

 

[Jarhyn]

If your argument were sensical, racists could harass blacks at random, aiming their vehicle at them in near-collisions. Once the victim is sufficiently enraged he can then be shot to death in "self-defense"! To protect against this, I suppose blacks are obligated to throw up their arms and surrender to any white man who accosts them?

Wow! Do you live in Russia? Is that the way things are done there?

There are specific citizen's arrest laws in Russia. Certainly not with guns. And self-defense laws are pretty weak.

Your argument is nonsensical. These 3 idiots had the right guy, they had citizen's arrest law and that's what they tried to do. Unfortunately the guy had some mental issues.

Your argument is based on delusional premises. There is no evidence Mr. Arbery had committed a felony. None. These 3 vigilantes could have simply called the police while following Mr. Arbery. Instead they trapped him and instigated a deadly encounter. And after that, they assumed some special consideration from the police and the local prosecutor would protect them.

A jury of peers after weighing all the evidence (sworn testimony of witnesses) - something you do not do - they found those 3 racist vigilantes guilty.

I wouldn't say that's exactly how juries operate. But the fact that in this country, that there could be a gathering of twelve people that do not among them have at least one beligerent, evil asshole that liked what happened is somewhat miraculous.

With precious few nonsensical and oh so unlikely exceptions that did not materialize, the publicly available knowledge is sufficient to show that this was a lynching.

Any argument that it was not, or even pointedly avoiding any implication that it was, can kindly and publicly suck the place my pants-covered taint made contact with the bus seat this morning.

 

[Harry Bosch]

If your argument were sensical, racists could harass blacks at random, aiming their vehicle at them in near-collisions. Once the victim is sufficiently enraged he can then be shot to death in "self-defense"! To protect against this, I suppose blacks are obligated to throw up their arms and surrender to any white man who accosts them?

Wow! Do you live in Russia? Is that the way things are done there?

There are specific citizen's arrest laws in Russia. Certainly not with guns. And self-defense laws are pretty weak.

Your argument is nonsensical. These 3 idiots had the right guy, they had citizen's arrest law and that's what they tried to do. Unfortunately the guy had some mental issues.

Your argument is based on delusional premises. There is no evidence Mr. Arbery had committed a felony. None. These 3 vigilantes could have simply called the police while following Mr. Arbery. Instead they trapped him and instigated a deadly encounter. And after that, they assumed some special consideration from the police and the local prosecutor would protect them.

A jury of peers after weighing all the evidence (sworn testimony of witnesses) - something you do not do - they found those 3 racist vigilantes guilty.

I wouldn't say that's exactly how juries operate. But the fact that in this country, that there could be a gathering of twelve people that do not among them have at least one beligerent, evil asshole that liked what happened is somewhat miraculous.

With precious few nonsensical and oh so unlikely exceptions that did not materialize, the publicly available knowledge is sufficient to show that this was a lynching.

Any argument that it was not, or even pointedly avoiding any implication that it was, can kindly and publicly suck the place my pants-covered taint made contact with the bus seat this morning.

Totally agree. What the fuck was Arbery suppose to do? If three guys ambushed me in the dark, I'd go right after the guy with the gun. Either that or run like hell. And he probably did, but these guys were in a truck! How was he suppose to outrun a truck?

 

[Elixir]

If three guys ambushed me in the dark, I'd go right after the guy with the gun. Either that or run like hell. And he probably did, but these guys were in a truck! How was he suppose to outrun a truck?

Supposed?
If the stalkers are doing the supposing, he’s probably “supposed” to try to evade the truck by cutting through someone’s private property, thereby providing an excuse for his execution.

 

[Harry Bosch]

If three guys ambushed me in the dark, I'd go right after the guy with the gun. Either that or run like hell. And he probably did, but these guys were in a truck! How was he suppose to outrun a truck?

Supposed?
If the stalkers are doing the supposing, he’s probably “supposed” to try to evade the truck by cutting through someone’s private property, thereby providing an excuse for his execution.

Well, the only good news in this story is that we got a jury that looked at the facts objectively, and made the correct ruling. Again, Arbery is running, all of a sudden three yahoos are chasing him in a truck with a shotgun. Is he honestly suppose to believe that they wanted to make a polite citizen's arrest? That would be the last thing going through my mind if I were Arbery. Arbery did what any reasonable person would do, tried to get away, then when cornered, went after the shotgun.

 

[TomC]

Instead they trapped him and instigated a deadly encounter. And after that, they assumed some special consideration from the police and the local prosecutor would protect them.

This is exactly why I consider this a lynching. The McMichaels expectation that they wouldn't be prosecuted because everyone important would agree that the killing of undesirables is just "taking out the trash". Just a few years ago, that's probably what would have happened.

That's why this crime is unusually pernicious. The collaboration with justice authorities. That's why I think everyone in the prosecutor office who knew about it needs fired, and the main players like Johnson have earned some serious jail time.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

If three guys ambushed me in the dark, I'd go right after the guy with the gun. Either that or run like hell. And he probably did, but these guys were in a truck! How was he suppose to outrun a truck?

Supposed?
If the stalkers are doing the supposing, he’s probably “supposed” to try to evade the truck by cutting through someone’s private property, thereby providing an excuse for his execution.

Well, the only good news in this story is that we got a jury that looked at the facts objectively, and made the correct ruling. Again, Arbery is running, all of a sudden three yahoos are chasing him in a truck with a shotgun. Is he honestly suppose to believe that they wanted to make a polite citizen's arrest? That would be the last thing going through my mind if I were Arbery. Arbery did what any reasonable person would do, tried to get away, then when cornered, went after the shotgun.

Not to mention he was jogging, then running for a full five minutes. He was probably played out from exhaustion and adrenaline.

 

[atrib]

Another takeaway from the story is that the criminals were foolish enough to give the police full statements of how the events transpired, which were later used to convict them. Roddie Bryan, for example, couldn't have been charged with anything if he hadn't admitted to the police that he had repeatedly tried to run Arbery over on the road, and had actively steered him into the killing zone where the McMichaels were waiting with their guns. Even Travis McMichael, the person who shot Arbery three times, could have easily asserted self defense in a later trial, and likely prevailed if the police did not have statements from the defendants in the case. The police didn't have a case for felony murder or even aggravated assault without their "confessions".

Never talk to the police or answer their questions, unless you are the victim of a crime requesting help. Nothing you say to the police can be used by your defense to help you in a court of law, and everything you say can be used against you. The police cannot compel you to talk or answer questions, no matter what the circumstances, if you choose to remain silent.

 

[TomC]

Another takeaway from the story is that the criminals were foolish enough to give the police full statements of how the events transpired, which were later used to convict them.

Not foolish. Confident.

They were confident that the prosecutor would agree that they hadn't done anything very wrong. It's the essence of lynching.
Tom