Breakdown In Civil Order

[ZiprHead]

This is only because I'm not quick to believe a 24-year-old Marine Corps veteran accidently chocked someone to death.

You forgot to mention "white".

Honestly, if Penny isn't a violent person I could totally understand why he restrained Neely so badly that Neely died. He didn't know what he was doing, or how best to accomplish stopping Neely's attack on the rest of the subway passengers.

Why do you think a Marine wouldn't know what he was doing? They all receive extensive hand to hand combat training. I don't see how he couldn't know.

 

[ZiprHead]

Blaming Penny because he didn't know how to deal effectively with a violent psycho on the subway is ridiculous. It's completely nonsense. Penny had 2 minutes to figure out how to deal with a problem that was decades in the making.

I'll clue you in on something. It's New York City. There are always psychos on the subway, city busses, etc. The people have learned a long time ago to ignore them.

 

[TomC]

Blaming Penny because he didn't know how to deal effectively with a violent psycho on the subway is ridiculous. It's completely nonsense. Penny had 2 minutes to figure out how to deal with a problem that was decades in the making.

I'll clue you in on something. It's New York City. There are always psychos on the subway, city busses, etc. The people have learned a long time ago to ignore them.

How well does that work out for people like that old lady who's face Neely smashed?
Tom

 

[Gospel]

This is only because I'm not quick to believe a 24-year-old Marine Corps veteran accidently chocked someone to death.

You forgot to mention "white".

Honestly, if Penny isn't a violent person I could totally understand why he restrained Neely so badly that Neely died. He didn't know what he was doing, or how best to accomplish stopping Neely's attack on the rest of the subway passengers.

If Neely had a family who cared, this wouldn't have happened. If the judicial system had kept Neely off the streets, this wouldn't have happened. If mental health professionals had intervened, this wouldn't have happened. If Neely could get along with social service agencies who would feed and house him, this wouldn't have happened.

Blaming Penny because he didn't know how to deal effectively with a violent psycho on the subway is ridiculous. It's completely nonsense. Penny had 2 minutes to figure out how to deal with a problem that was decades in the making.
Tom

You forgot that while It's a great idea to have theories it's also great to remember that they are just theories. Failure doing so leads a person to a view of the real world obscured by some superimposes self-generated image.

 

[TomC]

You forgot that while It's a great idea to have theories it's also great to remember that they are just theories. Failure doing so leads a person to a view of the real world obscured by some superimposes self-generated image.

I'm not sure what you mean by "theories" in this post.

It's a fact that Neely was on the subway. He wasn't at his family's place.
Is that what you're referring to as a "theory"? Because I don't see it as one.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Blaming Penny because he didn't know how to deal effectively with a violent psycho on the subway is ridiculous. It's completely nonsense. Penny had 2 minutes to figure out how to deal with a problem that was decades in the making.

I'll clue you in on something. It's New York City. There are always psychos on the subway, city busses, etc. The people have learned a long time ago to ignore them.

How well does that work out for people like that old lady who's face Neely smashed?
Tom

She's still alive. Neely's not.

 

[TomC]

She's still alive. Neely's not.

Sounds like NYC is a tiny bit safer, overall.

It's unfortunate that Penny had to get involved, given that he obviously didn't know what he was doing.

He wouldn't have, had Neely's family and city authorities gotten involved a few years earlier.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

She's still alive. Neely's not.

Sounds like NYC is a tiny bit safer, overall.

It's unfortunate that Penny had to get involved, given that he obviously didn't know what he was doing.

I highly doubt he didn't know what he was doing. Considering his training and that people told him to stop, it's almost guaranteed.

He wouldn't have, had Neely's family and city authorities gotten involved a few years earlier.
Tom

That I agree with. It's too bad our mental health systems have been broken for a long time.

 

[laughing dog]

This is only because I'm not quick to believe a 24-year-old Marine Corps veteran accidently chocked someone to death.

You forgot to mention "white".

Honestly, if Penny isn't a violent person I could totally understand why he restrained Neely so badly that Neely died. He didn't know what he was doing, or how best to accomplish stopping Neely's attack on the rest of the subway passengers.

If Penny didn’t know what he was doing, then he shouldn’t have been doing it. Ignorance ought not be an accepted rationale for killing someone.

 

[TomC]

I highly doubt he didn't know what he was doing. Considering his training and that people told him to stop, it's almost guaranteed.

What training?

Who told him what, during the couple minutes this happened in? Were they all saying the same thing?
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Co. C recruits learn responsible use of force

In their fourth week of training, recruits of Company C, 1st Recruit Training Battalion, learned chokes and counter techniques during a Marine Corps Martial Arts Program session aboard Marine Corps

www.marines.mil

“Recruits learn specific techniques to use in a last-chance situation if they don’t have a weapon,” said Sgt. Brandon Karnes, drill instructor, Platoon 1051, Co. C, 1st RTBn. “These choking techniques, if applied properly, are a fast and safe way to knock out the enemy.”
The two types of chokes that recruits learn are the rear choke and figure-four variation. Both techniques are blood chokes. By applying pressure to the carotid artery, the major artery of the head and neck, blood flow is restricted to the brain causing the enemy to pass out.
“A properly applied blood choke can knock out an enemy in less than eight seconds,” said Karnes. “Trying to restrict air to a victim can take close to a minute, which is enough time for the enemy to fight back.”

Karnes, a black belt Martial Arts Instructor, explained that although MCMAP teaches recruits how to defend themselves, it also stresses the importance of controlling a situation with the least amount of force.
“(MCMAP) not only teaches recruits the fundamentals of martial arts, but it also teaches them about being a better person,” said Karnes.

Apparently Penny didn't learn that second part.

 

[TomC]

If Penny didn’t know what he was doing, then he shouldn’t have been doing it. Ignorance ought not be an accepted rationale for killing someone.

It's not an accepted rationale for killing anyone. It's a human response to a violent situation.

Did the authorities who put Neely back on the streets, knowing that he was a violent psycho, know what they were doing?

How about his family, the people who loved him so much they started a grifting campaign once he was dead. Did they know what they were doing?

All these people knew a lot more about Neely than Penny did. Why didn't they handle the problem before Neely was back on the subway causing the sort of problems he'd already caused before?
Tom

 

[TomC]

Apparently Penny didn't learn that second part.

I keep asking.

Why didn't all the many many people who were aware of Neely's problems deal with them before some guy on the subway got stuck dealing with them?
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

If Penny didn’t know what he was doing, then he shouldn’t have been doing it. Ignorance ought not be an accepted rationale for killing someone.

It's not an accepted rationale for killing anyone. It's a human response to a violent situation.

Did the authorities who put Neely back on the streets, knowing that he was a violent psycho, know what they were doing?

How about his family, the people who loved him so much they started a grifting campaign once he was dead. Did they know what they were doing?

All these people knew a lot more about Neely than Penny did. Why didn't they handle the problem before Neely was back on the subway causing the sort of problems he'd already caused before?
Tom

None of that absolves Penny, no matter how much you wish to shift the focus.

 

[ZiprHead]

Apparently Penny didn't learn that second part.

I keep asking.

Why didn't all the many many people who were aware of Neely's problems deal with them before some guy on the subway got stuck dealing with them?
Tom

So all those others neglecting him means it's okay to kill him?

 

[TomC]

None of that absolves Penny, no matter how much you wish to shift the focus.

Nobody said it absolved Penny, at least not me.

5% Penny
40%Neely
40%family
15% state

How about that?
Give Penny a few hours of community service.
Tom

 

[TomC]

So all those others neglecting him means it's okay to kill him?

That's not what I said.

But did any of those people care whether Neely went out and got himself killed?
Enough to do anything important about it?
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

So all those others neglecting him means it's okay to kill him?

That's not what I said.

But did any of those people care whether Neely went out and got himself killed?
Enough to do anything important about it?
Tom

You act like they knew he was going to get killed.

 

[TomC]

You act like they knew he was going to get killed.

They knew he a violent psycho roaming NYC didn't they?

Did Penny know that Neely would die? He knew less about him that all those many other people did.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

You act like they knew he was going to get killed.

They knew he a violent psycho roaming NYC didn't they?

Did Penny know that Neely would die? He knew less about him that all those many other people did.
Tom

So you're blaming all those other people but not the guy that actually killed him.